Survivor Mentality and Stigma Against N.O.E.D.
I would like to ask why NOED get so much salty hate from survivors. Survivors have a huge arsenal of 2nd-Chance perks...
Borrowed Time
Dead Hard
Unbreakable
Deliverance
Decisive Strike
Adrenaline
SWF/Comms
Now it's one killer against 4 survivors, facing against potentially 16 2nd-Chance perks. Mind you the killer is also now playing the match with only 3 perks (since NOED isn't activated). PLUS the totems can be broken and cleansed before the last gen so you still may not even get to use it. Let's face it, Totem spawn locations are trash as it is anyway.
But you get ONE down from NOED, not even necessarily a kill, and suddenly you're getting t-bagged at the gates and the end-game chat is full of salty survivors saying how trash the killer is, how broken NOED is, telling the killer to uninstall, go kill them self, etc. So why do the survivors have such contempt against one perk that has a 50/50 chance of actually being useful?
Comments
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BT, don't tunnel and it has zero effect.
DH, fair enough of a complaint.
Unbreakable, one time use only matters if you try to greed.
Deliverance, earned with a decent chance of never triggering.
DS, already hard nerfed and only matters if you tunnel.
Adrenaline, again it was earned. They finished their objective.
Swf with comms, also a fair complaint.
So we actually only have one second chance perk.
As for Noed, you did nothing to earn the speed boost/insta down. In other words it feels cheap. Basically it's the killer DH. Personally I'd rework Noed, but it's still a fair perk. At least in my opinion.
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Typically I don't have a problem with NOED. Lately however, I see it paired a lot with the strategy of face camping the first survivor you down until they, well die. Then you go and try to catch someone else.
If the survivors rushed out gens like they were supposed to then they will not have had the time to find and cleanse all dull totems much less keep track of where they all are. After the final gen gets completed the killer can use NOED to insta down whoever they find after the first person who was camped dies. Then they just camp again with NOED.
Used in this fashion I think it's unfair. It's allowing killers to always gain MMR from 2 kills, sometimes more if survivors aren't efficient or make mistakes. Survivors have to gen rush and not do totems to make the most of the camped persons time and NOED punishes them for gen rushing/not doing the totems I don't see how that's fair.
Otherwise though like I said I have no real problem with NOED tbqh
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That's not counting if the just go full end game build. Add in No way Out, Bloodwarden, and Remember Me and it's a nearly guaranteed 4k.
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Me as Killer dont have problems with Survivors using BT & DS, since I dont tunnel or camp. Though BT body blocking is annoying and Im willing to follow, down them again, willing to eat DS and put them back on hook, since they asked for it.
New Dead Hard makes me feel robbed like the new pallets, hear they scream but nothing happens. Adrenaline isnt that good, its literally reward them for finish Gens.
Im a hardcore Noed user, and feel Noed is completely fine. But its not fine when Killer tunnel/camp, forcing Survivors to rush Gen, and use Noed for easy 2k.
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NOED just feels really cheap. It's a perk that activates because the survivors finished their objective, not because the killer did anything to earn it.
Personally I refuse to use it as a killer and if you as a survivor can run a killer for multiple gens but then get instadowned at the end simply because you performed well and allowed the rest of your team to finish the gens and reach endgame, that just feels really lame. I enjoy using, and enjoy playing against devour because it must be earned and can be earned at any point in the match, even if it has a similar effect to noed at the end of the day.
Also, going out of your way to cleanse all 5 totems is not good counterplay. It's just spending time doing something to prevent a perk that may not even be in the game. And it's a bad idea now anyways because you're denying your teammates the opportunity to use boons if you break all the totems.
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I like using it just cause it makes people angry.
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I honestly think most of the hate for NOED is simply because of loss aversion, the feeling you get when something is taken away that you had. It's the difference between being given a raffle ticket worth $5 that doesn't win versus giving someone $5 and then taking it away from them in a game later, people almost always feel worse about losing the money they had in hand. Some survivors think that when the gens are done the game is essentially over and they're about to escape, so getting downed by an exposed hit at the stage feels to them like losing a win they "already had gotten". Losing when you thought you already won hurts more than being killed early when you didn't really think you had won yet.
Anyway this is always a hot topic here, but I agree that NOED appears to be on par with other Exposed granting perks like Haunted Grounds and Make Your Choice. It really is just that psychological aspect of losing something you thought you won.
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I think NOED gets too much hate I get why it gets hated on but, the same answer applies all the time break the totems or boon them
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It's pretty dishonest for people to say Haunted Grounds or Devour Hope are the same. Both of those have real and engaging risk/reward, NOED doesn't, and moreover: NOED doesn't tell survivors they're exposed until someone gets hit.
Watch a NOED user 'play' versus someone who actually engages with play. You'll see what I mean when I say I'm disappointed in anything which makes my fellow killers stagnate or plateau.
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Perks like those never have "no effect" or "don't do anything". They completely deter and punish vital killer playstyles. They reinforce an already solid foundation that is survivor strength.
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Yes, they brought a perk to counter what you're doing. Same as killers who bring perks to counter what I'm doing. Anyone complaining about DS at this point needs to get over themselves. Unbreakable counters a killer trying to greed once per match. BT, again you try to hit the person right off the hook I have no sympathy.
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The salt is not caused by NOED but by salty survivors. It doesn't matter if you bring NOED or not
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Once you 4k enough without all the gens being done you start finding it to be a waste of a perk slot. It turns into one of those perks you only use when you have nothing else to equip.
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I have no problem with NoeD as a survivor. After all I can just leave and let the Killer get one kill.
Most of the perks you called out however are uncalled for. Borrowed Time is fine and BT-bodyblocking can be punished by the killer even thou some survivors will cry about tunneling after that. Unbreakable is also okay as there is Murphys Law with it: You bring it and the Killer does not slug, you forget it and you get slugged 24/7. Deliverance is fine as it has to been earned (also: Murphys Law), Deceisive Strike can be outplayed and has been fairly nerfed and Adrenalin also suffers from Murphys Law.
That leaves Dead Hard and SWF/Comms. And to fair: Yes, Dead Hard is a pretty good perk. But it can be baited and you can play around it. It is fairly overcentralizing the meta for survivors which is bad in my opinion but it is not overpowered.
And SWF? I would not compare a perk to a mechanical issue.
Now NoeD falls in the same place as Dead Hard. I do not think it is overpowered. The problem comes with another mechanical issue...
...this issue: Face camping.
NoeD would still be a strong perk in this szenario but it would not be as much of a problem if there was no face camping here. This is a cheap strategy indeed and I think there should be a way around this...
However I would like to argue that there are Killers who benefit from NoeD in a way that makes them quit more potent and makes NoeD indeed a superior choice: Trapper and Hag. Both are late game killers with their playstyle and benefit greatly from having NoeD without the need to camp.
Hag can be especialy mean with NoeD up her back and a good web of traps. Is it cheap? Maybe. But it is still a pretty good tactic and I would not say that a Hag using it is hindering herself.
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If a killer with NOED downs someone with all gens powered they have 3 options usually.
1) hook & camp
2) defend totem
3) patrol gates
Depending on where they downed the survivor and RNG of totems all 3 can potentially be in one spot in a worst case scenario. However in the norm usually these things are spread out. If a survivor gets hooked and the killer camps(this is the norm) then the remaining two survivors can split up and hunt the totem while he face camps the survivor. Once you find the totem and destroy it you hook dive with BT and then body block with the second survivor + unhookee with BT to easily escape. This is contingent on a few things though 1) at least 2+ survivors are alive. 2) RNG didnt screw you. 3) at least one alive survivor has BT. However if you meet these 3 conditions then NOED should never ever be a problem.
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Okay, so killers can just go for 12-hook games and never sweat, maybe even meme around for 30 seconds. And they can 4k survivors every game with no effort, without perks or add-ons. Killers just don't have a thing to worry about do they? Certainly not survivor perks!
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They can play how they want. They risk being countered by those perks. Which is the whole point of bringing a perk. Killers bring perks to help them win, same as survivors.
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Lost count on how many times people do not understand why haunted grounds/devour hope is much more respected by survivors vs noed. Lost how many times I try to say I do not think its cause survivors really hate the perk fully, we hate it cause of killers who got 5 gen looped and then gets a 4k for no hard work done. I mean ok if at least the killer had got a few hookings or even kill 1 2 to person and finish off the game with noed coolio. a 5 gen rush bad killer is 0 excuse for the lame come back of just do totems when everyone in this world know in a solo queue its not possible. Ofc now if swf noed at that point is not an issue.
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But look how much complains there are about easy to counter dead hard ? its funny we cant complain about noed but killers are allowed all the glory to moan about dead hard lol.
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I can't do another No Ones Even Dead discussion.
But , I will ask, why care what survivors think of it?
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NoeD is a perk killers can bring to counter survivors doing gens and ignoring totems.
Survivors can bring perks like Small Game or Detectives Hunch, or and Map item to counter possible totem related killer perks like NoeD.
Killers don't currently have a way to counter Boon perks since they changed Thrill of the Hunt to only slow Blessing, and the closest you could come is using multiple perks like Undying\Retribution\Thrill - and those are Hex perks that can be Blessed or Cleansed without the ability to relight, making them almost useless against most Boon\Totem builds.
NoeD also doesn't activate if the only remaining totems are Boon totems, not Dull.
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Entitlement! Survivor mains are entitled children! Plain and simple
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Yup as the Entitled noed killer mains who tunnel/face camp/hits on hook like immature children because they got 5 gen looped because they are too lazy and salty to put an effort of their own to win with a hand me down pacifier perk
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Umm so why are the forums being flooded now about boon totems, its just never gonna be one way or another, some killers counter is map totem builds now those survivors whos using those and not using meta like DS/DH/IW is giving up their comfy zone of using boon builds, then you have killers now as you can see are making constant qq post about people doing totems. What do the killers what really lol?
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And then they complain about Lucky Break, a mediocre perk, until it was nerfed. Then the Developers were surprised no one used Lucky Break, so they buffed it. And still the Developers are surprised no one uses Lucky Break. It's as if the Killers are entitled little princesses with a persecution complex.
Now the entitled Killers are crying to the Developers to get rid of boon totems, even though their war cry has been "Do Bones" anytime a survivor mentions NOED.
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Keyword as harsh as it sounds but its simple really Hypocrisy from the constant whining of boon/dead hards posts, oh survivor makes a noed complaint=do a totem/map build killer says. Survivor is doing what killers saying for how many year. (we run boon build now even giving up our fav perks like iron will self care flash bang etc. Omg survivors keep doing boon totems get rid of it? see how its never ending ?
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As I said earlier in the thread, I don't mind Noed. I would like to rework it to be more in line with other end game perks though.
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Everything in the survivor list excluding DH is a counter to things a killer might try to do for easy pressure. It's a risk vs. reward system. Personally I think that's a good thing.
Noed has no requirement to trigger. Hence why I compared it to DH since it feels cheap. As I stated earlier in the thread, I have no issue with Noed. I'd like to see Noed reworked and brought in line with other end game perks though.
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I just put NOED on Pinhead and I think I might start doing NOED on all M1 killers from here on out
It was generally something I've avoided as I've found that against good SWF teams, it usually didn't matter if I had NOED as good teams coordinating were doing bones.
With that said though, after yet another game of "Hit Validation" telling me to get bent as survivors have no fear of making any mistakes with DH and with the heavy use of Boon Totems so you can't even attempt to juggle survivors to keep pressure on them, using a M1 killer has turned from a uphill struggle to a downright impossible slog.
Survivors can cry a river at me all they want, I couldn't care less getting your "NOED BABY KILLER!!!!" messages.
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Speaking as someone who plays killer about 70% of the time, NOED does feel incredibly cheap to use and even worse to go against, especially if you’ve ran the killer all game then they get in one lucky hit after NOED activates then just camp your body as your teammates leave.
you always feel a sense of reward after you Mori a survivor using Devour Hope because you’ve earned it, but the NOED benefits feel unearned
I personally feel there should be a prerequisite and it shouldn’t be just handed to you, there should be a hook requirement similar to No Way Out (if you want the full length version anyway). This way it would still reward good killers while making it less of a second chance perk for killers that got 0 hooks all game.
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More please because everything you put is a counter , let me tell you about this brilliant doctor who even though my friend unhook me with bt, I tried to body block for my healthy friend with it but nope he didnt club me so i didnt got my free speed boost, I guess also he count to 12 throwing me off thinking he was keeping chase on my healthy friend who now is injured only to come clap me and rehook me again a few seconds later. Ah well you got killers who actually think and know their advantages.
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While we dont care about killers qqing about dead hard and boons and getting hate mails telling us to get git good , you need a controllable perk to win. Run the clown perk that lets you know if survivors are by dull totems or know the map by heart like some killers do to know where totems are.
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See killers like you are god killers and earn my respect, especially if your using devour hope , the amount of hard work to get it and you pull that off, then its giving me a wake up call to be on alert. I will 100% welcome devour hope over noed anyday.
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Bt is a legit second chance anti tunnel perk.
Unbreakable is a "here your team ######### up and the killer is snowballing efficiently so heres a get out of jail free card" with up to 4 being on a team
Deli is still a second chance perk with an earning requirement and can actually be time efficient
Ds is still a second chance as the killer decides to tunnel so you get off their shoulder for free
Adrenaline is still a 2nd chance with a much greater earning requirement
There fixed it for you
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As a killer main I wish my fellow killer players would stop using NOED. It's just a statistic booster because of the pity kills it gives. I'm pretty sure this perk alone gives devs a wrong view about the game's balance. As people said above, you can guarantee a 2k just with facecamp + NOED kill at the end, and this according to MMR was a "balanced" match.
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Those perks are so powerful that they have to be respected wether the survivor has them or not; and NoeD should be the same where it is so powerful that survivors do totems 'just in case', but its not, people rush gens, get hit with it, and complain on the forums that only baby killers use it and it should be changed.
The counters are there to use if the survivors choose, which as you say:
"They can play how they want. They risk being countered by those perks. Which is the whole point of bringing a perk. Killers bring perks to help them win, same as survivors."
The same is not true currently for Boons though, there is no counter, only to keep snuffing them out or ignore them and leave them up; the only counters are Hex perks which are also countered by Boons and Boon builds - the thing they are trying to counter. So Boon perks counter the perks that would counter them in any way.
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I mean.. deli is also earned through the killer doing their objective so idk what your point is there. Also I think you neglect that gens can go just like that. Like I love having a 30 second chase and have 3 different gens be 50% possibly even more with toolboxes. I also find it funny since NOED is still technically earned by playing most of the trail 3 perked for a possible power spike at the end. Also you do realize that noed can't override a boon totem right? so all you would have to do is cleanse a couple totems and bless the rest then boom do the final gen no noed.
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I know where totems are. I've played this game for FAR too many hours than is probably reasonably healthy
But I am one player. I cannot be in five places at once. Even if I know exactly where the blessed totem is, if it's on the dead side of the map where no undone generators are, I can go cleanse it and let everyone get free shots at the generators only to have one of them wander back there eventually and just relight it anyway. Juggling as a M1 killer is a dead strategy and juggling as a M1 killer is essentially the only way to win against good players (and if they're bad players, I'm not going to need NOED as I'll take them out before we get to the EGC).
Knowing where the totems are also doesn't fix the DH "hit validation" junk where I am constantly hitting people but having the game tell me JK! But hey, if they're exposed at the EGC, they can't DH themselves out of this one.
I play survivor and killer relatively equally and almost exclusively solo survivor so I get how much it sucks that I cleanse four totems only to be taken out because of NOED but this is the state of being a killer in this game. Don't hate The Playa, Hate the Game.
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Are you saying my Leatherface experience is not balanced? Shame on you Labrac James.
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Ahahah I can agree with that, issue is we was always just slap with the do bones thing and what urks is so much complaints of boons now its like a no win at this point, where told to do to counter it, we finally get perks that encourage more on doing totems but now is being bash all over the place and is wanted to be deleted then it ends up going back to now survivors complaint on noed, a non ending merry go around. Issue with small game and detective hunch is that there really was no big awards for using those perks and is nitche to where sometimes a killer wont even have noed, Least boon totems does not feel a 100% lost for doing bones when killer had no NOED. Perhaps if small game/detectives had given some type of benefits then there be no need for boon totems.
Also on dead hard, but look how to me killers with their strange hit boxes clap you with dead hard or even pallets that you for sure felt that pallet was thrown, or ofc the meme yes you hit the killer with the pallet but they still down you
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a cruel noed strikes
winter’s bite and bitter fright
bones for all to see
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Ok am so serious on this, that sounds so beautiful as either a poetry or a song. You go me wanting to make a song or write some poetry now x3 🤩
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And that's why I despise most of this community. Many people have this mentality "I don't play to win, have fun, I just want to make someone else angry, ruin someone else's fun". That's a very childish, griefing behavior.
As for the main topic, I don't mind NOED that much, I usually do all the totems and NOED hardly ever activates. What I don't like about it still, is that it's so, so cheap - if killer is good, NOED is not needed, if killer is absolute trash, and can't get more than one hit during whole game, it just feels... not really fair that suddenly he gets a free down and possibly even a kill, if he manages to protect the totem.
As for the survivor perks you've mentioned, they are second chances, but during the game and usually won't give you a free escape. It's like, Dead Hard can give you access to window or a pallet, but Bamboozle can disable that window.
Killers complain about survivors, because survivors use perks that help them during interactions with the killer - BT, DH, DS etc. Killers mostly use stuff to defend gens - Corrupt, Ruin etc. and stuff like that is not helping during interactions with survivors.
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Yeah, I agree... Ha ha ha... Imagine playing Leatherface just to troll survivors. That would be awful and totally not who I am...
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Thank you.
It's a Haiku.
The most elegant form of poetry.
You've excellent taste. Perhaps you should try making one.
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Of course Bubba is an exception. He is a true chad and doesn't follow the rules of the game.
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Certainly Friend
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BT: covers you in case you unhooked in front of the killer (second chance on bad unhook management, prevents à quick tunneling )
DH is DH
Unbreakable allows you to recover from the dying state at anypoint, if the killer wantz to slug many surv one is all thzts needed to recover the whole tieam (second chance over slugging, prevents à mass slug, strong with DS)
Deliverance i dont consider à second chance, but a strong perk when well used, and à fine one
Adrenaline... basically allows all survivor on the last 1-2 gens to never heal, when finishing the last gen they all (with the perk) receive à heal+speed boost even if exhausted, it almost completly kills the end game for killer and the pressure they got, yet technically it aint à second chance
DS is and will always be à second chance perk, yes its good for when youre getting tunneled, but its easy to abuse and we have seen so many instances where DS still kicked in even when not being tunneled, terrifying when combined with UB, yet way more fair since its balance update
To an extend, if we reaaaaaally go deep and are willing tonconsider them as so (i dont)
Camaraderie would be second chance for being camped
Spine Chill for not being carefull at your suroundings
Iron will/lucky break goves you à New chance to hide/escape the killer
SWF aint second chance but it boosts these perks
In the end, most of the survivor perks are used to deny aspects of gameolay for the killer, limiting their possibilities
Its the way the devs chose to balance the game and the reason these perks are often seen
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This pleases me.
(not sexually)
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Tonight is the night
That No One Escapes From Death's
Lit for all to see
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