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I'm surprised The Devs have not commented on...
Dead Hard eating M2 powers, yet.
Wonder if it will ever be addressed.
Comments
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Honestly, they need to come up with something better than hit validation. It's BS and everybody seems to time it just right now, even on quick hits and running them down for a moment before attempting the hit. I've come out of blinks where they had no mine of sight on me and perfect DH to avoid me. Its ridiculous.
And you know vaulting will get hit validation next. It's going to happen.
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Cooldowns and charges used. M2 hits are more valuable, and often more punishing when a 'miss' animation plays.
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Being very sure of yourself doesn't make you less wrong. Value isn't irrelevant, you literally asked what the difference was - rejecting the answer makes it clear you're not here in good faith.
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I want grab validation
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No, it doesn't. When an M2 has a cooldown or charges that get used, or a miss animation that takes longer, it's an empirical loss of resources for a killer even compared to M1 'misses'
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A server rejected m1 hit is how dead hard worked before servers as intended.
A server rejected m2 hit stops dashes and projectiles which it didn't use to.
You could hit someone through a deadharding survivor with huntress for example. Not anymore.
I'm all for fixing the perk. But making one of the already strongest perks even stronger is iffy
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Yet still, you're pretending your point is a valid one - sorry, your hit doesn't count :P
It simply does not matter that both are being rejected the same - which they're not, as pointed out below and less completely in my own responses. In both instances, the killer and survivor are acting with the best knowledge they have available to them: before HV, the survivor often got screwed, and afterwards it's the killer getting short-changed. HV isn't itself bad, or the problem, but the way it's handled does mean that there is an objective loss of resources for M2 hits compared to M1 hits. Any other take is either actively dishonest or deliberately incomplete.
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Omg i hope not. Imagine dealing with 3 hit validations in the current game state. If that happen as soon as a survivor is downed i can see how miserable his match will be by being either face camped or tunneled to hell even more.
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Ah, I was wondering what happened
I played a little bit recently, and I hit a guy after he used DH and it didn't down him
Better gaming chair I guess
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This is not entirely correct. It is still possible to hit someone "through DH" after their DH plays out, instances where DH validation "eats" the dash or projectile come down to specific timings that depend on both players' latencies as well as the time of the attack and DH actuation. And prior to validation, in those timings the survivor would have died every time despite having actuated DH on their end. But I agree that this is a particular issue with rejected hits which in a latency-free scenario might have continued to hit the survivor after the dash (or at least a pallet or even another survivor). Just know that any scenario where you in the past hit a survivor after their DH played out on your end is unchanged - the only times where validation will come into play is if you actually hit the survivor before they DH on your end, which again, in the past would have resulted in them simply dying without you ever seeing them DH in the first place (at most you'd see them teleport on the floor).
Unfortunately I don't really see a way how that "phantom hit" issue can be solved with how DH currently works. They'd need to rework DH, such as by replacing its invicibility (and dash) with Endurance for instance.
If DH is used to successfully dodge a special attack, of course the killer goes through the associated cooldowns, just like they go through missed attack cooldowns on basic attacks in that case. Remember that rejected hits due to validation mean that in a latency-less environment, the survivor would have simply dodged without the killer seeing a successful hit happen.
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My understanding is hit validation just checks to see if something actually hit on the server versus just appeared to hit on a client. It's just making the server the final adjudicator of what really happened. So if you fire Deathslinger's gun, and they Dead Hard, and it looks like a hit on your client but the server confirms it was actually a miss, then it's treated like a miss even though to you on your client as killer it looked like a hit.
So my thoughts are
- If you didn't hit after server validation, you didn't hit. It's not that "the server is wrong", it's your client that was wrong. The server acting as the objective, final decider on what hits is perfectly reasonable.
- The issue therefore isn't that Dead Hard is "more powerful" than before, it's that some things it was supposed to have dodged before weren't because of a faulty validation design. This isn't a "buff" to Dead Hard as much as it is a correction.
- Of course, that's not to say Dead Hard isn't a great perk, maybe even one that's too good, but that's something that maybe they should look at in terms of balance now that it's actually working properly. After all, the "bugged" version of Dead Hard was already one of the most popular perks among high rated survivors, now it's looking even better since it's been fixed!
- The way Dead Hard works it should in my opinion definitely be able to dodge M2 attacks. No question, the whole point of the perk is it makes you invulnerable to a short bit to dodge attacks. There's no particular reason it should be restricted to only dodging basic attacks. Given that, it is quite powerful, so the simplest way to balance it out is just reduce the length of time it makes you invulnerable and or reduce or eliminate the distance it moves you forward. Changing either or both of those parameters would allow you to weaken the perk if necessary to whatever effectiveness is desired.
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I see what you mean, and I think you have incorrect information. There might be edge cases of very high killer pings where the client goes through successful hit cooldown because they do not receive the server validation message in time, but usually and in all cases of validated DH hits I've seen and gotten, the killer has gone through missed attack cooldown, both on basic and special attacks.
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I have indeed seen instances of rejected Demo shreds, but those too ended up giving missed shred cooldowns rather than successful shred cooldowns. Do you have any videos, or are you speaking from personal experience? Is your ping particularly high?
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As I said, I could believe that in very high-latency or loss/choke edge cases the killer client could be going through successful hit cooldown because it does not receive the validation message in time or at all, but I have yet to see such a case.
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Probably has those nice foam rollers T_T
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Not another Dead Hard thread...you guys are not bored yet, i mean seriously.
From DS to Dead Hard and if gets nerfed, it's time for the Sprint Burst nerf threads.
So predictable like when you run bamboozle and vaulting even Z walls.
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Hit validation eating m2 powers is an issue. It's one thing for a survivor to dodge the power and the killer gets the missed cooldown. It's another thing when certain killers have longer cooldowns when landing their powers that get punished due to validation.
This isn't a nerf dead hard thing.
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The miss animations work the same, though there are some funky interaction with certain killers and environment. Tentacle strike can get validated behind a pallet and not break it
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When hits get validated, the animation that happens is the miss animation. There are some mechanically unfair things about hit validation, but this is not it.
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I had a hit validation of dead hard on a survivor while he was MIDAIR......not activating it on the ground he activated it litterly at the last second before he went over a hill drop and I never got the hit even though he was midair when I hit him.....this Hit Validation is starting get a little stupid if you ask me.
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There are multiple lengths of "miss", and many refunded hits are getting the longer stun value despite those normally being reserved for actual hits - plus, the majority of my own points here are about powers having additional cooldowns/charges which get eaten, in addition to the stun lengths.
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i've literally never seen that happen, even when playing as blight, demo or oni, which according to you would be some of the main offenders. What does happens is something similar to when auto aim activates, where it cuts your lunge short, though you have normal animation recovery. The charges get eaten when you use a power, not when you hit, so there really is no difference from just mising or getting validated in that regard
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Your experience is not inherently objective or representative.
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Grab and flashlight validation when
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Well yeah, but i also have not seen a single youtube video or streamer have this issue. If you are able to show a video of the hit animation going through on a validated hit, be my guest to call me a dummy, but when there is no proof of what you're saying, its kind of hard to believe when my experience clashes against yours
Edit: Here is a video that shows no hit animation go through, but how it can still be mechanically unfair
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Nemesis is a good one i go to hit a infected survivor with a m2 they dh and my m2 goes into cooldown. What should of happenf is I m2 they dh and since there is no survivor to hit anymore I brake the pallet. Dh eats m2 instead of braking the pallet
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Yes, there are a lot of Dead Hard threads.
There is a reason for that.
DH was a meta perk before the 'fix'. It's simply too strong as it stands.
The major issues are:
- The interactions between the new validation and killer M1 attacks, where the game frequently shows you a 'false hit'. This leads to you acting as if you'd hit which often means the survivor escapes.
- The interactions between the new validation and some killers' M2 attacks, where the 'false hits' function bizarrely with killer powers (the example already given is where attacks that would either hit a survivor or break a pallet do neither).
- DH being balanced with it's crazy short cooldown around it's former quirks. It was still very strong. It is now probably too strong, as the risks of using DH have been removed.
BHVR needs to fix the first two, then see how things look. It may need another nerf after this.
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This has nothing to do with the point I was contesting however, which is about distinguishing between successful and missed hit cooldowns (for which there's actually no difference in Nemesis' case).
As I agreed, instances of DH validation "eating" attacks that could have otherwise continued to hit the same survivor, another survivor, a pallet or breakable wall, are unfortunate, but they are an unfortunate compromise of making the hit system more fair. In the past in all of those instances the survivors would have just gotten hit despite actuating DH in time.
But perhaps BHVR can actually implement special rules for cases like this, e. g. one where the killer client upon receiving a rejection of a tentacle hit will check whether there wasn't a dropped pallet in the tentacle's hitzone that can be destroyed retroactively, instead. Hell, in my opinion they could even buff Nemesis such that at least in tier 3 he can register tentacle hits on multiple targets simultaneously, which would automatically solve the validation issue too.
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That is not a missed shred cooldown, but instead a lunge cancel similar to when auto aim makes you miss a lunge
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This has everything to do with your point as if I wasn't going to hit the survivor it should brake the pallet but dh eats it. And it literally only makes it fair for one side its actually extremely unfair to add more seconds on to a chase because the validation just decides to eat a killer power. If you want to point out one problem you have to take into account all of them otherwise your cherry picking and it really defeats the purpose of the conversation
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Except those are hits they shouldn't have been getting anyway. All the validation does is ensure the person who actually acts first on something gets priority.
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ScottJund has done some videos where he tested this.
The first one is just a basic summary:
The second one goes into more detail and testing:
Its visual. "Its mechanically quite fair". Nobody is getting robbed or punished more than they should.
I know the scream on a miss is annoying but thats all that needs to be changed imho.
Can we end this discussion now?
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What people are talking about is certain powers that get messed up by the new dh hit validation.
If you pounce at someone with victor for instance, instead of flying through them like you should. Vic hits them and drops where he is for an ez kick.
The new vaidation makes attacks not whiff thru survivors like dead hard should. So other things like hatchets will still hit them instead of going through them.
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vaulting already having server hit confirm
dead hard is exhaust perk and thats why this got buffed
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Hit-validation = always let the survivor be on the winning end, and making it an 'official' function or feature in the game let's survivors make the argument that "the game's just been unfairly in your favor this whole time, now it's fair because it favors survivors."
What really grolsches me out, is that survivors felt so strongly about being hit, even though they saw something on their screen. But, when killers complain about the exact same thing, rather than empathize, they mentioned the above argument.
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Except for the following killers who do get punished hard for having this validation take effect on them. Since... they don't count as missing their power.
Nemesis: The validation takes up Nemesis tentacle and makes it actually unusable when it comes to survivors who use it near pallets. It would prioritize the survivor who is invincible which would prevent the pallet fr being broken. Since it takes three hits to down an individual with a tentacle and two of which gives a speed boost, it would be very obnoxious to do it a fourth time which is more time wasted and their animation is always the same. In addition, the pallet doesn't even get broken because of that.
Deathslinger: Thanks to the new nerf Deathslinger got, it's a lot more detrimental dealing with a Deadhard when you shoot at them, it makes it extremely obnoxious, I remember one time someone Deadharded through my shot before the validation kicked in and I hit the person behind them. Now, it just stops. Cool.
Twins: Yes the cooldown is shorter on a miss lunge, but thanks to validation it's a free victor kick since he stops where he "hit" the survivor and needs to cooldown, he would be kicked so much more often than originally where he flew past the person who deadharded.
This is just a small list, there are other killers too who are also getting punished for a simple press of a button that can be used every single game.
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The cooldown we see is a missed shred cooldown, rather than a successful shred cooldown. That the lunge gets "cancelled" because it hits on the killer end but is rejected by the server is not what I was contesting.
Someone argued it's unfair that killers go into successful hit cooldown on rejected DH hits. I countered saying that that's not true, usually they will go into missed hit cooldown. That was the point, nothing else.
But... I did actually address the issue of DH vali eating attacks that otherwise might have still done something. In my very first post. It is an issue, but it is not actually "extremely unfair", extremely unfair was the completely one-sidedness of it in the past where the survivor would die every time if the killer hit them on their screen, even if they had actuated DH more than early enough, even just because the killer has a bad connection. That same extreme unfairness still exists for all hits that don't happen around stuns or DH too, by the way.
As I also said, solving that issue with validation is probably impossible, but perhaps BHVR can implement client-sided checks that at least allow a killer like Nemesis to still break a pallet if a hit gets rejected.
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Again, that is not hit cool down, but instead a miss cool down with cancelled momentum. If it was a hit cool down, demo would screech and hold its arms out, claws facing upwards
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Either I am somehow totally not understanding something, or you are. Yes, that is a miss cooldown, rather than a hit cooldown, which was precisely my point. The statement that prompted me to reply alleged that he would go into hit cooldown on rejected hits, arms out and screeching and all. Which is not the case.
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As far as I'm aware it only eats Huntress hatchets. Many of the things that people say DH cancels are either really small inconviences or pre existing bugs.
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I think we both misunderstood, because you corrected my already correct answer, and then I corrected your already correct answer. We both head empty
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"That is not a missed shred cooldown" is what you said and what I was correcting.
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I said it was a missed shred cool down tho. Read it again. I said it's not hit cool down, it is a miss cool down
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I must have missed part if it but you are right you get a missed cooldown idk why everyone keeps saying they always get the 3 second one. Unfortunately I think hit validation is here to stay and will be what they use in this type of situation moving forward.
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Lol don't be, they love just being silent about issues.
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It doesn't negatively impact survivor players so, I doubt they care much. The fact people are still trying to defend the buff is amazing to me.
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No, you did not.
"That is not a missed shred cooldown, but instead a lunge cancel similar to when auto aim makes you miss a lunge."
That's a direct quote from you. You literally say it is not a missed shred cooldown. Maybe you communicated your point poorly, but either way you never corrected anything I said.
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"Again, that is not hit cool down, but instead a miss cool down with cancelled momentum."
I made a mistake when writing the other comment, and for some reason i thought you had quoted this comment. I guess i was the one and only head empty here
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Guess they don't care / see it as an issue as the new PTB is out and they haven't commented in any posts or mentioned it.
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Just like the cheating scandal, I'm sure they will ignore it.
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