FOG WHISPERER OTZ NEW VID ON MMR SHOWS MAJORITY HATE IT
Come on Devs. The majority of the player base despises MMR/SBMM. Please change it. The system is far too simple and leads to ridiculously unfair games for killers most of the time. Survivor queues are long, and killers are camping,tunneling, slugging machines anyway when you do get a game because they can't win playing fair much these days. Please change SBMM.
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Idk if they'll do anything about this. At this rate I think they might just try to refine MMR. I really want the pip system back cause at least I would earn some fair games at purple/red ranks, instead of the roulette I'm in now in low MMR.
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First of all, Link the video... Second, While he is asking the community for their input, and his opinion is that he and others aren't happy with it, the Youtube/Streaming community doesn't represent all of us. While DbD players may view his channel, his followers only represent a fraction of the amount of DbD players, So unless he gets ALL of the other Fog Whisperer/DbD Streamers/Youtubers to ask their own followers the exact same question... The results of his inquiry amounts to little more than 1/1000th of the overall community.
Otz's video may be striking the right mark on this by honestly asking the community how much they love or hate SBMM/MMR in DbD, but unless his question is asked by At least 51% of the streamers/youtubers that play this game, it won't amount to anything, much like a fart in the wind: smelled by maybe the 1 person closest to it, but ultimately doesn't phase anyone.
Link the Vid if you want to get his point/message to others quickly, but that alone will only affect those in the Forums as much as they are willing to actually view it, which is admittedly a small percentage, but not worth the effort, so by all means express and link this in Reddit, and any other social media you can think of to increase viewership and responses. Then of course, Suggest to OTHER streamers/youtubers to ask the same question, because while 1 voice with 100 followers is not enough to move a town, 100,000 voices with 10,000,000 followers is enough to move a nation!
EDIT:
Only AFTER this is accomplished, can we actually see any real results from the Developers at Behavior.
Post edited by TWiXT on4 -
Before the MMR system, roughly every second round I played against a tunneling killer and got tunneled out within the first 60 seconds purely because it's efficient. As killer, games weren't much better than they are now.
Clearly, MMR isn't the problem here. It's the overall game balance. Gens go too fast, maps are too big with too heavy an emphasis on Hold W, and tunneling/camping is too efficient.
I like games that are fun and fair, where everyone has the opportunity to play the game the way it's meant to be played. On average, rounds last 15 minutes for my SWF group so I'm happy if I die after 3 gens are done. What isn't fun is a tryharding killer running Ruin/Undying/Tinkerer/NOED because they want a 4k in 2 minutes.
On the flipside, sweaty survivors running a full meta build isn't fun either.
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Majority that watch him...
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Gens go way too fast. That is the truth. However, smaller maps hurt some killers like Pinhead, Ghostface, and The Pig. I think fixing generator speed is the main issue along with limiting the amount of the same perks on survivors. For killers, perhaps making survivors just off the hook invincible to attacks for a few seconds will discourage "tunneling" attacks. The main issue is gen speed. They just go too fast and it's a big problem.
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One of the ways to improve gen speeds would be to have more single person gens and less two+ person gens. Some maps need scaling down, while others just need to have their gen spread changed. Blood Lodge is one of the worst offenders for this.
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Which video?
He talked about it a bit during the stream, and pointed out that Steam numbers look fine and that the '2 kill' thing only makes sense when you look at it that most games are either a 0-1 out stomp or a 3-4k massacre.
The only negative thing he had to say was that he gets paired up with newer survivors a lot and that there seems to be a ton of hackers right now.
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yep, that's the one.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5KjhbxVZrs)
honestly, MMr is working for me about 75% of the time, but the other 25% (almost always while playing as survivor) I get put up against some real "thanks, MMR" matches almost as ridiculous as some examples of "Go home, chat filter, you're drunk".
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Who?
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The tagline of the video - he's unsure whether people dislike it or like it.
The title of this thread is deliberately misleading.
Remember - people seldom come to forums and make a thread about how much they like something. When they take the time to comment, it's usually a complaint.
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yep.
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No, Pinhead also suffers on larger maps. Survivors can see the box fine at a distance; on a big map it's way more likely to spawn way out of the reach you can patrol it. On a smaller map, they're forced to solve it somewhere you might (maybe) be able to reach.
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Most of the people who hate the MMR have high MMR, and they are what? 5% of the player base?
MMR is not perfect and need tweaks, but the rank system is far worse, except for tryhader players too used to steamroll other players, the SBMMR is better.
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I don't even know that much.
Watching Otz's streams, there are plenty of people saying the game has become better.
The reason (I suspect) that high MMR people dislike it is that they are experiencing way more losses than they were before. Ranks, with zero killer matchmaking protections, meant that if you were decently good, you'd be constantly getting matched against people a lot worse than you.
Now...not so much.
The only definitive point Otz made is that there seem to be a lot more hackers, but even he pointed out that this may be because he's getting a lot more matches in a high MMR range where hackers are more prevalent.
No idea why the OP had to lie to make his point tbh.
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The box is much closer to survivors on smaller maps. On bigger maps they may think it's too far or someone else will deal with it. On smaller maps it's right next to them.
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"On bigger maps solo queue might be more stupid" does not make him stronger on bigger maps, given he's not got great mobility or straight chase potential.
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Otz video has now 157k views with 12k likes. DBD has a daily average of 50k thousand players on Steam. If we estimate console has around ~150k more, his video reaches way, way more than 1/1000th of the community.
He's by far the most popular DBD content creator. His community might not even come close to the entirety of the DBD playerbase, but it's safe to assume he represents the average player very well.
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That video is not really a good representation. People are much quicker going to write a comment when they dislike something then when they like something.
Same thing with the forums btw. Just because the mayority here likes to complain doesn't mean the mayority playing this game hates it. People really don't realise just how small of a fraction of the total player base this is
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The majority can be just as wrong as the minority, especially when they're basing it off of emotions and impulsiveness. MMR will work for this game if done right. Just basing MMR off of kills and escapes is not doing it right, but that doesn't mean we scrap the whole thing. We improve it. For god's sake, do people want that badly to go back to facing opponents of completely random skill? These hard matches you're having are showing you that the game is imbalanced, not that MMR doesn't work. Use your heads, people.
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That's very untrue in my experience.
I invite you to try to get to high MMR and continue to play there for months on end.
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Working on it!
I'd love to see my own MMR, but on my Hag, Cenobite and Demo, I'm confident that I'm at least high-intermediate. I'm mostly facing players with 400-800 hours (on the profiles I can see) and a good amount of SWFs. As a sub-300 hour player, I'm quite happy with this.
But...what exactly is untrue there? I'm sure that from the perspective of a high MMR killer, the game is a bit less fun - as you'll be playing very sweaty to get wins. But...that's the nature of high MMR.
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It isn't about winning.
To get to my point, allow me to ask you a question. What do you find enjoyable about playing Killer and what do you find unenjoyable?
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I'll answer this with a before and after.
Before - Maybe 2/3 to 3/4 of my matches were completely one sided stomps at the hands of survivor groups with thousands more hours than me. I'd go multiple games without a kill (I think my record was 10, I may have made a thread about it way back when), and where I got 1 (or very occasionally 2), I had to sweat my butt off for it.
It was no fun. I felt entirely powerless and that my opponents were so far out of my league that I wasn't even learning anything.
Now - Maybe 3/5 of my games are pretty even. Sometimes I'll struggle for a kill, sometimes I'll 3-4k, but when this happens it feels like had I corrected some mistakes or they'd made more mistakes, I could have won. 1/5 are a bit too easy - usually a case of 1 crazy good survivor with 3 potatoes. I'll usually ease up. The final 1/5 are really sweaty, hard fought games where I was just simply outclassed. Usually this is a case of SBMM pooping itself - I'm guessing due to lobby dodges, long queues on someone's end, maybe simple maintenance of the system or the occasional possible smurfs.
It's fun. I feel like I have the power to win matches I lost by simply improving, and I actively learn from those games.
Did that make sense?
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Yes, it did.
High MMR is basically your first paragraph. Except, you can't improve anymore. Sure, there might be tiny things you can correct, but at a certain point, your own skill no longer matters. You can only win if the other team messes up. You will almost exclusively see 4-man's, because anything less will get slaughtered. You will see the same 7 perks every match. Your build will look the same.
Sure, the novelty of it might keep you satiated for a while, but eventually, you'll release high MMR gameplay is dreadfully one-sided, boring and unfun. Not because of winning or losing, but because your ability to play the game is limited by the imbalance of it.
For example, here's a match I recently played. I was running PGTW, No Way Out, NOED and BBQ. I'm on Mother's Dwelling and it takes me about 20 seconds to find a Survivor. They start running and it takes another 15 for me to hit them. They run to a loop, I mindgame them, they DH to the pallet and I break it. I manage to catch up to and down them in 35 seconds. Takes me 10 seconds to get to a hook. 2 gens pop. I look around on BBQ and see someone else on a gen. I make my way to them. Halfway there, that gen pops.
The issue with high MMR is that the most fun part of the game will lose you the game.
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Sure. I'll agree with this.
But I will say three things.
- This is true of every game I've played that is remotely competitive at high MMR. In Starcraft 2, most people at high MMR will be using the same builds and strats, and often whichever race is even slightly 'on-top' in the meta will be 50% of Grandmaster. I don't think this is even possible to fix. To be at the top is to min/max or lose - and that always restricts choice.
- The higher MMR you are, the more small imbalances become big imbalances - because when nobody is making many mistakes, things are decided by those imbalances. And DbD is a game with very, very shaky balance. Even at my level, I'll have a much easier time on some maps than others, against some perks than others, using certain builds, addons and killers.
- Hilarious '50 wins with a meme build' streaks inevitably come at the expense of the weaker players you're paired up against. It's fun for you - but probably not for them.
MMR has definitely made the imbalances of the game, especially at high MMR, more apparent. But that's an issue with balance, not MMR.
That said - my point wasn't really about MMR to start, it was about the OP telling pork pies. Otz never said anything of the sort.
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The most popular DbD content provider still isn't enough to elicit an actual response from the Devs. Otzdarva may not represent 1/1000th of the players, but he still represents only a small fraction of it compared to those who play the game or follow other streamers/youtubers and especially forum members, no matter their notoriety.
Look, All I'm saying is that First of all, the OP should've posted a link to the video, which would really get things in the forums going as it would draw the attention of Otz's followers, as well as inspire newer players to follow him. Second... by encouraging other Fog whisperers/Streamers/Youtubers to ask the same question of their own fanbases, we and BHVR would get a more accurate assessment concerning the overall feedback over the SBMM/MMR situation. More importantly, if the majority of players turn out to hate it, then it would need a change in order to make the devs money, wouldn't it?
Basically all I'm Bitching about is that the OP dives in on Otz's diving board without knowing how deep the pool goes and assumes everyone follows Otz, without giving the avg player a frame of reference, and yet still demands change when they themselves haven't shown an ounce of responsibility, or provided evidence of getting any of the other Fog Whisperers to agree to follow and ask their followers the same logical question Otzdarva has asked.
Stuff like this doesn't spread unless people want it to, and as far as I've seen from the OP, they haven't even tried to spread the message other than merely "mentioning" it, and THAT never gains anyone any favor; much less an acknowlegement from the creators of the game.
"The great sin in business is the failure to make a dollar, but the unforgivable sin, is to lose a dollar over a stupid decision."
In other words, the only way the devs are gonna make any changes is IF the cries/complaints/dissatisfaction of the majority of players affect their ability to earn money. if 50% of the community is saying its ok, they go with it, but if 51% say something is wrong, they correct it... BALANCE BE DAMNED, with 1 exception... If less than the majority agree something is broken and an almost equal amount of thos opposing them agree, then that something needs to be changed.
THIS is where the power of the Influencers comes from, and only IF they actually all agree on something and present enough user based evidence/testimony to back it up. Alone Otzdarva is nothing, even with his followers, but without others like him asking the same questions, we won't have an army that demand to be heard, and the Devs won't ######### listen to anything we say.
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I don't see any difference from the previous system. I play against bad survivors and good survivors with different coloured ranks.
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That wouldn't really fix gen speed, it would make it worse.
It's actually really good strategy to have each survivor on different gen, because that is way harder to stop them.
It would get 3-gen way harder tho.
Big problem imo are spawns, because you can get spawn where each survivor is on different gen from start and there is not much killer can do about that. Survivors should always spawn together.
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Ranks don't mean anything.
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Survivor is boring as hell too because of MMR, there's too many nurses and blight (i love blight but its too much now) in my matches.
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I think it's a big problem that 'every survivor on their own gen' is both the safest and fastest option. The co-op speed penalty should be changed from -15/-30/-45% to +15/+15/+15%, with base gen time increased accordingly. That'd make pressuring gens easier and would make it more worthwhile to put a survivor on the hook.
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In my experience, I've had easier games when the survivors are all split up on different gens versus when they're burning through gens co-op with Prove Thyself, knocking the gen speed down to about 36 seconds.
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The MMR isn´t the problem. The balance issues that became more visible with the MMR is the Problem. Turning the MMR off without changing the balancing issues is like closing your eyes and claim that everything is fine now.
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It's hard to deal with without slow-down perks.
But if you have them, then you can deny all they work, which is impossible if that time is split between multiple gens.
It's kinda funny that Ruin is actually best perk to counter both of those tactics. Well, that's why it's used that much.
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This.
I've also noticed that every time someone posts a thread/comment saying they're enjoying the game right now (saw one earlier) they get attacked for it, so why even bother posting anything positive when the hive mind is too negative and will attack you for it?
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Well I have the devs have plans to continue MMR because if we’re stuck with this killer players won’t stay
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Current SBMMR with crossplay on was terrible. I was getting players with 10 hours in my games when I'm way above a thousand hours.
I feel like the last SBMMR test was working way better than it is right now.
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You can blame MMR all you want but all it does it show the glaring issues with the game
It's not MMR, the game is just poorly balanced.
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I remember a post years ago (so no link available) where they said, that they are not worried as long as the queues are below 20 minutes.
Don´t keep your hope up.
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MMR is here to protect new players.
Who cares about veterans lol, they already have all DLC and dont care about cosmetics.
With SBMM, BHVR has created the illusion that skill matters in this non competitive game, which, in fact, is a very simple system that allows new players to have a fair experience.
Deal with it, MMR will stay this way until there's no new player coming to the game.
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I have literally never been attacked for enjoying Dead by Daylight.
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The old system was better to "protect" new players.
But now you're getting new players in your lobby. And that shouldn't be possible. How can it be that players can enter my lobby with 10 hours or less?
The round is just over with newbies as survivor.
Because of this wonderful MMR 😂
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Win by playing fair. I’ll assume you do not play swf with voip and map offerings
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Since we're sharing streamers and their thoughts on MMR, here is a timestamped 30 seconds that echo my thoughts on it.
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This is exactly the issue.
MMR is...mostly fine, although it could be a lot more nuanced for survivors.
High MMR is where little imbalances become big imbalances, and big imbalances become enormous.
Every game at high MMR turns into min/maxing and less choice - because that's where the meta is usually set in stone.
Take Starcraft 2 for example. At Bronze-Platinum, you'll see a ton of different wacky builds. At Grandmaster, it's usually the same builds and whichever race is even slightly ahead will make up around 50% of GM.
That's definitely annoying if you are a GM player, but pairing GM players against Gold players, while it'll certainly be fun for the GM and allow for more builds, would be unfair to the Gold.
DbD has iffy balance at the best of times.
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If I don't, I lose.
I don't particularly enjoy losing, so I try my best to avoid that outcome. Sue me.
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They really should stop balancing around low rank solo players.
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I tink MMR is doin' a GOOD JOB!
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I agree.
Honestly, there is so much that could be done to dramatically improve the balance of the game.
- Rework a ton of maps to remove infinites or absurdly powerful loops.
- Give solo survivors a more robust system of emotes to allow them to communicate better.
- Stop nerfing killers because they are tough to deal with for complete newbies without any regard for their performance at high MMR and buff killers that are nearly unplayable at high MMR. This is the core reason why people complain about only seeing Huntress, Blight, Nurse and Spirit.
Thing is - there are probably a lot more low rank solo players than high MMR monsters. From a business standpoint, DbD has exploded in popularity since MMR (something like a 30-40% gain over this summer alone!).
We will have to see what the midpatch looks like.
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We've actually been bleeding players since MMR was announced to be a permanent fixture in August 2021 and that's surprising considering the game was F2P on Steam in October.
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