Can we all admit the Emblem System is a failure?

Zanfer

@BlondeMegPls said:

@Zanfer said:
Well if the killer couldn't catch even one survivor against all 4 than why should you be rewarded for having an easy game. Getting rewarded for having a more intense close game where all survivors are struggling to even make it to the gate is better than never seeing the killer once and leaving out the exit gate. It means the killer was playing really well against the 4 others and the 4 others should be rewarded for great team play under an intense situation.

I think you're missing my point, in a situation where the 4 survivors are the best 4 players on the game or they play the best game of their life- the killer may be very good but if no one is downed there's no chance at a pip. The point isn't what would make a better game and to reward 'better' games, if that was the point why not just return to the old system? Really a much better representation of that mentality. The point is rewarding the aim of the game, which for the killer is killing and for the survivor is surviving.

Yeah and that is where the emblem system does have its flaws, but that is the 1% and I agree that we shouldn't leave them out of the discussion.

Runiver

The reworked emblem system is actually very easy atm.
Not sure how you can even not safety now, except if you're like that guy from the other thread that RQ'ed after running in straight line.
It may happen if you're quickly caught first and camped, but otherwise... I don't see how it is now possible.

Master

@Runiver said:
The reworked emblem system is actually very easy atm.
Not sure how you can even not safety now, except if you're like that guy from the other thread that RQ'ed after running in straight line.
It may happen if you're quickly caught first and camped, but otherwise... I don't see how it is now possible.

The only way to depip is to be caught fast by the killer and then camped to death because your mates didnt bring BT. Either that or by DCing

Runiver

@Master said:

@Runiver said:
The reworked emblem system is actually very easy atm.
Not sure how you can even not safety now, except if you're like that guy from the other thread that RQ'ed after running in straight line.
It may happen if you're quickly caught first and camped, but otherwise... I don't see how it is now possible.

The only way to depip is to be caught fast by the killer and then camped to death because your mates didnt bring BT. Either that or by DCing

It's probably still a matter of time before they ask for even more tho.
Let's just wait and see how easy it needs to get before the changes stop.

Master

@Runiver said:

@Master said:

@Runiver said:
The reworked emblem system is actually very easy atm.
Not sure how you can even not safety now, except if you're like that guy from the other thread that RQ'ed after running in straight line.
It may happen if you're quickly caught first and camped, but otherwise... I don't see how it is now possible.

The only way to depip is to be caught fast by the killer and then camped to death because your mates didnt bring BT. Either that or by DCing

It's probably still a matter of time before they ask for even more tho.
Let's just wait and see how easy it needs to get before the changes stop.

With the emblem system in its current implementation, leaderboards will only display how much time survivors have played, because rank is a participation reward atm
But probably devs will drop the idea of leaderboards/rewards anyway if they realize that the game is not competitive

Freudentrauma

@Zanfer said:
Well if the killer couldn't catch even one survivor against all 4 than why should you be rewarded for having an easy game. Getting rewarded for having a more intense close game where all survivors are struggling to even make it to the gate is better than never seeing the killer once and leaving out the exit gate. It means the killer was playing really well against the 4 others and the 4 others should be rewarded for great team play under an intense situation.

That's the wrong way of thinking, because the rank systems purpose is to categorize players by similar skill and match them. So if one killer get's completely destroyed by his lack of skill, than they should downpip and the survivors pip. Otherwise good surivors could stay rank 20 all the time and crush noobkillers.
And the problem is that, if survivors want to pip against a bad killer, the emblem system encourages them to feed the killer, which is risky and also might lead the killer towards a safety or pip as well. Which means they stay the same rank.

thesuicidefox

@Zanfer said:

@thesuicidefox said:

@Zanfer said:

All I got to say is if you are unhappy than just don't play. Playing and feeling not great is not great for your health as an individual.

You don't get it. The emblem system just makes me not want to play DBD. I will just go play something else. Enough people do this and there wouldn't be enough people playing. That is slowly still happening because they didn't actually fix the problems with the game. You can't pretend like the emblem system is a success when the game itself is still broken.

Apparently you didn't read my comment even though you quoted it. I said "if you are unhappy than just don't play".

The emblem system versus the game mechanics it self have no correlation to each other at all. For example: Hag running at a certain movement speed is not affected by how the emblem system works.

I did and apparently you didn't read the part wher I say "you don't get it' at the start of my reply.

Telling people to not play is not a solution to the problem. FIXING THE GAME MECHANICS is a solution to the problem, yet instead of that we get a new rank system that doesn't do anything but make the game even MORE frustrating to play..

Zanfer

@Freudentrauma said:

@Zanfer said:
Well if the killer couldn't catch even one survivor against all 4 than why should you be rewarded for having an easy game. Getting rewarded for having a more intense close game where all survivors are struggling to even make it to the gate is better than never seeing the killer once and leaving out the exit gate. It means the killer was playing really well against the 4 others and the 4 others should be rewarded for great team play under an intense situation.

That's the wrong way of thinking, because the rank systems purpose is to categorize players by similar skill and match them. So if one killer get's completely destroyed by his lack of skill, than they should downpip and the survivors pip. Otherwise good surivors could stay rank 20 all the time and crush noobkillers.
And the problem is that, if survivors want to pip against a bad killer, the emblem system encourages them to feed the killer, which is risky and also might lead the killer towards a safety or pip as well. Which means they stay the same rank.

I have not seen evidence of the person who started this thread of what rank killer they were going against or how much skill they have against the killer. In fact how much skill the killer had against them.

Survivors can just dc to go back to rank 20 and they complain why they don't pip...

Zanfer

@thesuicidefox said:

@Zanfer said:

@thesuicidefox said:

@Zanfer said:

All I got to say is if you are unhappy than just don't play. Playing and feeling not great is not great for your health as an individual.

You don't get it. The emblem system just makes me not want to play DBD. I will just go play something else. Enough people do this and there wouldn't be enough people playing. That is slowly still happening because they didn't actually fix the problems with the game. You can't pretend like the emblem system is a success when the game itself is still broken.

Apparently you didn't read my comment even though you quoted it. I said "if you are unhappy than just don't play".

The emblem system versus the game mechanics it self have no correlation to each other at all. For example: Hag running at a certain movement speed is not affected by how the emblem system works.

I did and apparently you didn't read the part wher I say "you don't get it' at the start of my reply.

Telling people to not play is not a solution to the problem. FIXING THE GAME MECHANICS is a solution to the problem, yet instead of that we get a new rank system that doesn't do anything but make the game even MORE frustrating to play..

Well it takes time to figure these things out. The devs get constant complaints about millions of issues that they would love to solve, but if they solve them to quickly it can easily break the game or just make more people mad. I understand your frustration, but sometimes you have to be patient and let the devs do what they need to do. If you don't like that, than this game isn't for you..

Snowpaw

The system is fine. Quit whining and learn to adapt.

thesuicidefox

@Zanfer said:

@Freudentrauma said:

@Zanfer said:
Well if the killer couldn't catch even one survivor against all 4 than why should you be rewarded for having an easy game. Getting rewarded for having a more intense close game where all survivors are struggling to even make it to the gate is better than never seeing the killer once and leaving out the exit gate. It means the killer was playing really well against the 4 others and the 4 others should be rewarded for great team play under an intense situation.

That's the wrong way of thinking, because the rank systems purpose is to categorize players by similar skill and match them. So if one killer get's completely destroyed by his lack of skill, than they should downpip and the survivors pip. Otherwise good surivors could stay rank 20 all the time and crush noobkillers.
And the problem is that, if survivors want to pip against a bad killer, the emblem system encourages them to feed the killer, which is risky and also might lead the killer towards a safety or pip as well. Which means they stay the same rank.

I have not seen evidence of the person who started this thread of what rank killer they were going against or how much skill they have against the killer. In fact how much skill the killer had against them.

Survivors can just dc to go back to rank 20 and they complain why they don't pip...

You guys are missing the point.

Emblems are not a failure because I can't rank up. They are a failure because they force me to play in a way that's just not fun, on top of being highly inconsistent with my actual performance in the game (which itself completely defeats the purpose of a ranking system). BHVR decided to change the ranking system instead of just fixing the problems with the game. Survivor is less fun because pips are inconsistent and I don't have fun playing for pips. Killer is not fun because you deal with the same BS as before, only now you get shiney points at the end to make it sting less when you get bodied.

You guys are arguing about skill and rank. I'm arguing about the game being balanced and enjoyable.

Akantia

I actually like the emblem system from what I've experienced so far. I still need to run a few rounds as killer in order to properly judge though.

Zanfer

@thesuicidefox said:

@Zanfer said:

@Freudentrauma said:

@Zanfer said:
Well if the killer couldn't catch even one survivor against all 4 than why should you be rewarded for having an easy game. Getting rewarded for having a more intense close game where all survivors are struggling to even make it to the gate is better than never seeing the killer once and leaving out the exit gate. It means the killer was playing really well against the 4 others and the 4 others should be rewarded for great team play under an intense situation.

That's the wrong way of thinking, because the rank systems purpose is to categorize players by similar skill and match them. So if one killer get's completely destroyed by his lack of skill, than they should downpip and the survivors pip. Otherwise good surivors could stay rank 20 all the time and crush noobkillers.
And the problem is that, if survivors want to pip against a bad killer, the emblem system encourages them to feed the killer, which is risky and also might lead the killer towards a safety or pip as well. Which means they stay the same rank.

I have not seen evidence of the person who started this thread of what rank killer they were going against or how much skill they have against the killer. In fact how much skill the killer had against them.

Survivors can just dc to go back to rank 20 and they complain why they don't pip...

You guys are missing the point.

Emblems are not a failure because I can't rank up. They are a failure because they force me to play in a way that's just not fun, on top of being highly inconsistent with my actual performance in the game (which itself completely defeats the purpose of a ranking system). BHVR decided to change the ranking system instead of just fixing the problems with the game. Survivor is less fun because pips are inconsistent and I don't have fun playing for pips. Killer is not fun because you deal with the same BS as before, only now you get shiney points at the end to make it sting less when you get bodied.

You guys are arguing about skill and rank. I'm arguing about the game being balanced and enjoyable.

You can still play how you played before. Just rewards you for not farming.

Wolf74

@thesuicidefox said:

You guys are missing the point.

Emblems are not a failure because I can't rank up. They are a failure because they force me to play in a way that's just not fun, on top of being highly inconsistent with my actual performance in the game (which itself completely defeats the purpose of a ranking system). BHVR decided to change the ranking system instead of just fixing the problems with the game. Survivor is less fun because pips are inconsistent and I don't have fun playing for pips. Killer is not fun because you deal with the same BS as before, only now you get shiney points at the end to make it sting less when you get bodied.

You guys are arguing about skill and rank. I'm arguing about the game being balanced and enjoyable.

+1 this
It's like Marth88 said. The emblem system is a smokescreen to distract from the real issues.
To rank up survivor have to play stupid, they are forced to give the killer extra chances to hit or kill to get their own pip.
Killer have to rely on survivor to play bad to have a chance and the emblems try to encourage that playstyle.
If you just do your job and survive, you dont rank up.

That's why the Devs have wrong stats about escaperates.

EqMonkVeeshan

it is way to easy to pip as a survivor now as of the 2.0 release. please revert back to how the emblems was before the 2.0 release.

EqMonkVeeshan

@BlondeMegPls said:

@Zanfer said:
You shouldn't pip because you only did the generators. Even if that is all you could do it means the killer was not that great and you shouldn't be rewarded for going against a terrible killer...

What's the aim of the game? If a survivor plays perfectly, what happens? They remain undetected by the killer, are never hit and they do gens and escape. Let's imagine all 4 survivors play perfectly, no one hurt, no one to heal. No one pips under this system. Despite playing perfectly and following the aim of the game exactly...

except that if this happens you obviously was playing against a killer who was far below you in skill level. and no you should not be givin a pip for walking all over a killer who stood no chance to begin with, play a better killer more in line with your skill level.

swenpai

emblems are great.

appelpeer

thesuicidefox said:

In my opinion, the emblem system is a failure. As survivor it completely contradicts what you should be doing to actually win. It forces you to purposely get chased by the killer and punishes you for making non-altruistic decisions. It feels near impossible to get out of low ranks only because killers are so bad you can't get Benevolence or Evader, forcing you to race other survivors to do gens (and if you don't do at least 2 against a bad killer there is 0 chance you can pip). You are also forced to race other survivors for unhooks, leading to people that exclusively run We'll Make It and bum rushing every hook.

I am constantly getting safety pips in games where I do all the gens and escape untouched only to not get any points in Evader (which is a highly inconsistent emblem BTW) and none for Benevolence despite the fact that the killer camp the guy and I literally have no option but to let him die because any attempt to save him would result in his death and likely also mine (oh and people that kill themselves on the hook are basically say "If I don't rank up neither do you"). There is also the fact it's impossible to get benevolence due to everyone having Self Care and for some reason refusing to let you heal them so they can get the measly 100 BP or whatever you get. It's just insane how you can outplay a killer and escape a game with +12k BP only to not pip by 1 single point since you choose to let the guy die in the basement with Insidious LF standing there waiting for you. NOTE: These are just some examples of how you can be screwed out of pips as survivor. And while you can play in a way that you pip, my point is that it's not at ALL consistent, rewarding, or enjoyable to play this way.

And it's not to say the game is any better as killer. The emblem system has merely been a mild dab of antiseptic on the festering open wound that is this game's core dynamics. Sure it's easier to pip, but the game is no more enjoyable than it was before. You still have to deal with the same BS game after game. And the inability to pip as survivor has had some serious impacts on killers as well. It takes longer to fill lobbies at higher ranks. And with it being more difficult to rank up as survivor, it makes survivors even saltier than before.

In short the game isn't actually better after the emblem update. It just more convoluted and frustrating, but everyone seems to just grit their teeth and say to themselves "This is working" because they desperately want that to be the case. No, emblems failed. What this game NEEDED was an overhaul of the core mechanics. Pallets, maps, killers, perks, add-ons. EVERYTHING needed to go into overhaul mode. The results of this would have been 1000 times more effective than the emblem system.

With the benefit of hindsight, I honestly feel like the old rank system was just fine, it was THE GAME ITSELF that needed to change. Also that's not to say that the old rank system was perfect either, it had flaws. But the issues in the game ultimately come down to what happens during the game. Not what comes before or after.

Maybe the devs will come around and see how bogus the emblems really are. FIX GAMEPLAY FIRST. Everything else is an afterthought.

And survivors are forced to genrush so it's no fun for the killer either

thesuicidefox

@appelpeer said:
And survivors are forced to genrush so it's no fun for the killer either

Dude, did you just quote me only to make a point I made in the THIRD PARAGRAPH!! LOL

Zanfer

@EqMonkVeeshan said:

@BlondeMegPls said:

@Zanfer said:
You shouldn't pip because you only did the generators. Even if that is all you could do it means the killer was not that great and you shouldn't be rewarded for going against a terrible killer...

What's the aim of the game? If a survivor plays perfectly, what happens? They remain undetected by the killer, are never hit and they do gens and escape. Let's imagine all 4 survivors play perfectly, no one hurt, no one to heal. No one pips under this system. Despite playing perfectly and following the aim of the game exactly...

except that if this happens you obviously was playing against a killer who was far below you in skill level. and no you should not be givin a pip for walking all over a killer who stood no chance to begin with, play a better killer more in line with your skill level.

what I said, but he said I was wrong..

SpitfireOrMichina

I'm too bored to read all of this, but for me the amblem is fine, and i still dont know why you guys care so much about ranking.

Rat_Watson

Well, on the killer's side of the Emblem system, it is super easy to rank up, all you need to do is get at least one kill and hit the survivors like 4 times, it's that simple. But survivor on the other hand, it's insanely difficult for me to rank up. One round I could be chased the entire game, and then camped, and, I'll still get absolutely no points whatsoever, not even one pip. The only time to me it seems that I rank up is when the killer is nice and lets the group of survivors I'm playing with, farm with them. And usually that results in only one pip!

I feel that the old system was much more effective, and I'm not saying that it was absolutely perfect, it most certainly wasn't, but it could have been better if the devs reworked the system a bit. I know that they're obviously never going to bring the old system back, but it's just a thought.

Until then, I'll just suffer trying to get more than a safety pip.

foxofthestars

@Swiftblade131 said:
Why can't we have like. The OLD system back, I thought that it was just fine.

And I am talking about the one before the killer cube.
Maybe that cube wouldn't have been so bad if the survivors had gotten their part of it to, but no they just put out half, then this Emblem System. The Emblem System is more obnoxious than anything else

I agree with you @Swiftblade131 ! Could not have said it better.

BlondeMegPls

@EqMonkVeeshan said:

@BlondeMegPls said:

@Zanfer said:
You shouldn't pip because you only did the generators. Even if that is all you could do it means the killer was not that great and you shouldn't be rewarded for going against a terrible killer...

What's the aim of the game? If a survivor plays perfectly, what happens? They remain undetected by the killer, are never hit and they do gens and escape. Let's imagine all 4 survivors play perfectly, no one hurt, no one to heal. No one pips under this system. Despite playing perfectly and following the aim of the game exactly...

except that if this happens you obviously was playing against a killer who was far below you in skill level. and no you should not be givin a pip for walking all over a killer who stood no chance to begin with, play a better killer more in line with your skill level.

Did you just say I shouldn't rank up for playing against a killer of lower skill level of me?

How am I supposed to play a better killer more in line with my skill level if I don't rank up to match with them?

Zavri

Emblems are fine atm, they tweaked it so it isn't super hard for a solo survivor to pip anymore.

EqMonkVeeshan

@BlondeMegPls said:

@EqMonkVeeshan said:

@BlondeMegPls said:

@Zanfer said:
You shouldn't pip because you only did the generators. Even if that is all you could do it means the killer was not that great and you shouldn't be rewarded for going against a terrible killer...

What's the aim of the game? If a survivor plays perfectly, what happens? They remain undetected by the killer, are never hit and they do gens and escape. Let's imagine all 4 survivors play perfectly, no one hurt, no one to heal. No one pips under this system. Despite playing perfectly and following the aim of the game exactly...

except that if this happens you obviously was playing against a killer who was far below you in skill level. and no you should not be givin a pip for walking all over a killer who stood no chance to begin with, play a better killer more in line with your skill level.

Did you just say I shouldn't rank up for playing against a killer of lower skill level of me?

How am I supposed to play a better killer more in line with my skill level if I don't rank up to match with them?

@BlondeMegPls said:

@EqMonkVeeshan said:

@BlondeMegPls said:

@Zanfer said:
You shouldn't pip because you only did the generators. Even if that is all you could do it means the killer was not that great and you shouldn't be rewarded for going against a terrible killer...

What's the aim of the game? If a survivor plays perfectly, what happens? They remain undetected by the killer, are never hit and they do gens and escape. Let's imagine all 4 survivors play perfectly, no one hurt, no one to heal. No one pips under this system. Despite playing perfectly and following the aim of the game exactly...

except that if this happens you obviously was playing against a killer who was far below you in skill level. and no you should not be givin a pip for walking all over a killer who stood no chance to begin with, play a better killer more in line with your skill level.

Did you just say I shouldn't rank up for playing against a killer of lower skill level of me?

How am I supposed to play a better killer more in line with my skill level if I don't rank up to match with them?

it should be this way to prevent people from purposely deranking to have easier killers to just farm blood points. play your next match and hope the killer is better.

EqMonkVeeshan

@Zavri said:
Emblems are fine atm, they tweaked it so it isn't super hard for a solo survivor to pip anymore.

it was not hard before. the way they changed it in the 2.0 release made it more or less like a participation trophy, every one gets one now.

Zavri

@EqMonkVeeshan said:

@Zavri said:
Emblems are fine atm, they tweaked it so it isn't super hard for a solo survivor to pip anymore.

it was not hard before. the way they changed it in the 2.0 release made it more or less like a participation trophy, every one gets one now.

eh, you still have to repair 3+ gens and never get downed to pip solo if you don't want to do altruism stuff.

I wouldn't say it's a participation trophy when before you could simply just repair 2 gens, crack a totem or two and open a gate and pip on the old system.

SnakeSound222

It needs some tweaks. For me, the biggest fix would be for Malicious. If I don’t let any unhooks or heals happen, then I only get a Gold in Malicious. The description for Malicious says to apply pressure on the Survivors. If I applied enough pressure on the Survivors to where they couldn’t be altruistic, then I deserve Iridescent.

ShrimpTwiggs

Please fix this. The emblem system needs a complete rework right now.

Peanits

I don't know if I'd call it a failure, because I definitely think it's a step in the right direction. I just think it needs some tweaking and balancing. Like you said, there are some odd cases where the game doesn't properly reward you for what you've done. Not getting chased is like shooting yourself in the foot if you want to pip. The multipliers sorta' help with that, but you still get significantly more just from being in a chase, especially giving that you could potentially lose the killer and get chased multiple times.

I've also had the same experience as you. I could power most of the generators on my own, maybe heal someone here and unhook someone there, escape, and then depip/safety pip. It seems wildly inconsistent, I'd assume because the emblems are based around a little bit of everything while you might only do one or two in any given game (as a survivor, killers will typically dip into each category regardless).

Things like that could use some attention. I don't think it's a complete lost cause, it just needs some tweaking and additional rules to make it work properly. Not getting found could reward a point multiplier if the killer leaves the area without a chase, for example, and that would reward players for avoiding chases.

I'd also be interested in seeing how a raised baseline for emblems might work out. Say instead of starting with nothing, you start with an emblem. Poor performance could lower it back to the point where you don't earn any emblem in that category at all, while good performance could potentially raise it higher. I can see that working for evader specifically. As a baseline, you could start at silver. Failing chases could lower your emblem significantly more while succeeding in chases-- or not getting chased at all-- could continue to raise that rank. That way the game is more forgiving if you just happened to not get chased, be that by skill or because the killer was always busy with something else.

The one thing I will point out though, I don't think hook rushing and fighting for unhooks are any more prevalent now than they were before the emblem system. I always remembered people rushing the hooks for points. If anything I'd imagine the bloodpoints are still the reason most people do it. Points are progression, rank is just a mostly meaningless number that resets each month.

Irisora

The devs maked very good changes to emblems in the 2.0, it's far from a failure. I got no problems at ranking when playing survivor or killer (and i didn't got any problem before). I feel that the emblems reward me in a very accurate way now. Maybe you need to change your playstyle or get better at the roles you have problems.

Tsulan

@Peanits said:
I don't know if I'd call it a failure, because I definitely think it's a step in the right direction. I just think it needs some tweaking and balancing. Like you said, there are some odd cases where the game doesn't properly reward you for what you've done. Not getting chased is like shooting yourself in the foot if you want to pip. The multipliers sorta' help with that, but you still get significantly more just from being in a chase, especially giving that you could potentially lose the killer and get chased multiple times.

I've also had the same experience as you. I could power most of the generators on my own, maybe heal someone here and unhook someone there, escape, and then depip/safety pip. It seems wildly inconsistent, I'd assume because the emblems are based around a little bit of everything while you might only do one or two in any given game (as a survivor, killers will typically dip into each category regardless).

Things like that could use some attention. I don't think it's a complete lost cause, it just needs some tweaking and additional rules to make it work properly. Not getting found could reward a point multiplier if the killer leaves the area without a chase, for example, and that would reward players for avoiding chases.

I'd also be interested in seeing how a raised baseline for emblems might work out. Say instead of starting with nothing, you start with an emblem. Poor performance could lower it back to the point where you don't earn any emblem in that category at all, while good performance could potentially raise it higher. I can see that working for evader specifically. As a baseline, you could start at silver. Failing chases could lower your emblem significantly more while succeeding in chases-- or not getting chased at all-- could continue to raise that rank. That way the game is more forgiving if you just happened to not get chased, be that by skill or because the killer was always busy with something else.

The one thing I will point out though, I don't think hook rushing and fighting for unhooks are any more prevalent now than they were before the emblem system. I always remembered people rushing the hooks for points. If anything I'd imagine the bloodpoints are still the reason most people do it. Points are progression, rank is just a mostly meaningless number that resets each month.

While not a complete failiure, it tries to hard to force a certain play style on the players.
I opened a thread about the obvious problems of the emblems:
forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/3682/emblems