I'm starting to see to see just how crazy strong boons can be
I'm of two minds on this. On one hand I do agree that boons are too powerful. I played a solo survivor match the other day, and I was put on a team that like me - I kid you not - all had circle of healing. It was quite the wake-up call of just how powerful boons could be in the hands of a 4 man SWF. We were all fairly decent at looping, and while the killer was busy chasing, we sought out every totem there was and lit them which meant that almost the entire map had 100% healing speeds. What made it worse is that every time the killer snuffed one out, someone would just automatically relight it again, thus defeating the purpose of snuffing it out to begin with. The Killer did get one kill in the end, but the fact that we were able heal each other so fast at almost anywhere in the map prolonged the match to an insane 20 minutes!
Now all that being said, I think boons are a great component to the survivor gameplay. It gives survivors an optional objective, and it can definitely be a great team mechanic. However there definitely needs to be a cool down. It's kind of nutty that boons can be automatically relit right away. Personally I think there should be (at least) a 60 second cooldown once the killer has snuffed out your boon.
All of this just made me pondered what it would be like as the killer to play against a four-man SWF that all had every strong boon perk there was. If they're good at communication and looping, then that's going to be kind of crazy.
Comments
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I think it’s important to distinguish “Boons” from “Circle of Healing”. Circle of Healing is the specific perk that the broad consensus holds as being overpowered. The other two Boons are much less popular and don’t get nearly as many complaints.
So if the devs slow Circle of Healing down enough that should address what’s described in this post. They may not even have to do anything at all with the other two Boons.
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I think a 60 second cooldown isn't really enough. Bearing in mind they can be up for a very long time before being found. Since boon totems have made matches last longer, 60 seconds feels like nothing.
CoH either way needs a nerf.
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Yeah Boon Squad on certain maps can be just the worst to go against also here's an example of going against a 4 man SWF and all good players
This was at Lerry's and there was a boon everywhere across the map and I gave up on snuffing it. Generators popping left and right with my Hex exploding with boon notifications and played with only Shadownborn as a perk at this point, I hit survivors probably up to 50 times only for them to be fully healed in seconds, slugged people only for them to get back up seconds later so no pressure at all. It felt like a goddamn War in there. I was lucky I equipped my strongest add ons there since my gut told me the survivor carrying a map in the lobby was up to something bad and anything less would be demolished in that match. I barely squeezed out a 2K in that situation and I had to hardcore tunnel someone out because the pressure from the survivor team was nutty.
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Tbh if you have a full boon squad, a 60 second cooldown probably isn’t even enough.
I played with some solo queue survivors yesterday who brought two COHs on ironworks (meaning one of them was at the top of the building) and this huntress basically had no chance. It was ridiculous how easily we could undo her pressure, and this was a decent huntress too.
Btw, that was all without stacking medkits or any of that stuff that makes it even more ridiculous. I’ve seen some people say that’s the only problem with it (and it is a problem) but removing only that doesn’t fix it at all.
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I think that's fair. The increase speed from circle of healing that you get when added with medkits and other survivors can be done insanely quick, which is why I think there needs to be a cool down.
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I agree, which is why I think 60 seconds should be the bare minimum.
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Now imagine a solo survivor against a Blight with Ruin, Undying, and the broken Tinkerer.
Boons pale in comparison to that kind of advantage.
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I went vs. A team last night that had two boons and was coordinated at taking hits. Couldn't down anyone before someone else swooped in and took a hit. Damage state didn't matter cuz they just healed it and rotated blocks too quickly. Extremely frustrating.
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It buys you time on gens if used properly. That time you spent healing yourself is time that someone else can continue repairs without having to take the time to heal you. Every additional heal you get out of that totem just adds to that.
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If people aren’t smart with it and set it up in a place easily accessible to the killer/near the killer and it gets snuffed immediately, then yes, it is a waste of time. I won’t disagree with that.
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Did the devs ever say why a killer can't actually BREAK the totem, instead of snuffing it out? That seems like an important step in the balance process. I'd think the same logic they used to nerf Undying would also apply to boons. . .
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Don’t know if they specifically mentioned breaking totems, but they said boons could be relit because they “weren’t game-changing and didn’t mess with the core mechanics of the game, while hexes are game-changing”.
Even though COH has a stronger effect than most hex perks, lol.
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I like the idea of diminishing returns for COH, much like Built to Last has. First blessing is normal, but once snuffed it has reduced range and healing % each time it goes back up. Don't have to change anything else about it imo.
Makes it worth the killer's time to find it and stomp.
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Well considering ruin and undying would be go on the first 30 secs of the game so he would only be left with tinkerer
And blight is hard asf so most people are straight garbage with him
Idk I'd say even as solo I'd probably run him for at least 3 gens
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Thats true. What still utterly boggles my mind is how anyone thought that it would be ok to stack +100% healing speed AND self healing in one neat little package. I mean, Botany Knowledge has something like +33%, right? I know that that also got efficiency added, but CoH is sorta +100% efficient because it never runs out.
So if CoH did +25% healing, that would still be good, just not braindead auto-unclude good. If they find a decent balance with some cooldown mechanic, then it wouldn`t be that aggrevating to play against.
Oh, how about CoH sharing the exhaustion timer? I know that this would make it unpopular, but this way you would have to give something up to bless one, and it mindless reblessing wouldn't come without a cost, ie the blesser would be rather exposed for a while. I dont know if this would be enough to curb its power, but it would be a start.
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I think maybe the devs either underestimated how easy it is for survivors to run to a Circle of Healing spot to healing or overestimated how easy it is for killers to snuff that Boon out to keep it in check.
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Yeah - It's rough for sure.
I usually only escape ~60% of the time against that specific combo :(
Way2Strong
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I used to think that maybe it could be changed so that you could only see your own boon, but that would be made null and void if you're playing in a SWF.
Personally I don't think the devs fully took into consideration just how much more effective boon perks can be when utilized in a well coordinated SWF. Killers are already at a huge disadvantage against SWF anyway since no perk can adequately counter survivors being fed so much information, and now if used properly, survivor teams can have map wide increased healing speeds and hidden scratch marks/auras. It's crazy.
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Boons should not exist, period.
Why do Survivors get totem effects that are stronger than any Killer Hex, AND they can infinitely re-apply them?
The point of Hex's was that they were too strong to take effect all game. Then along comes Mr Boons and now Survivors get effects 100000x stronger than any hex, can overwrite hexes, and can reapply them if the Killer snuffs them. Because the Killer is totally not fighting for every second of the match in order to kill (sarcasm).
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Circle of Healing's effect is not stronger than Devour Hope or NOED, sorry to burst that bubble.
CoH is too strong, so at least you got that part right, but your reasoning is wack.
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My reasoning is fine; Why do Survivors get Totem effects stronger than any Hex, AND get to reapply them forever?
Imagine if Killers could re-ignite Hex totems; Survivors would screech onto the forums to cry about how OP that is. But if it's in their favor; it's a-ok!
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Again, CoH isn't stronger than any Hex. That's just wrong.
The issue is that they can be re-applied infinitely.
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CoH is broken. A 100% increase to healing. Plus a purple medkit with addons. I suck at math, so feel free to tell me how fast you'd heal your friends or yourself, since I'd get the numbers wrong.
Exponential plus perks means you can get yourself up in a handful of seconds, infinitely.
Shadow Step means the Killer literally can track Survivors or read auras inside it.
Every single boon totem is broken AF. The only 'balance' to them is that Survivors can't spread them out.
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- Again, we agree that CoH is busted. It's not better than certain Hex perks though.
- Exponential is so situational it may as well not matter. You have to go down in a Boon's range AND the Killer has to slug you AND you have to have other recovery perks.
- Shadow Step doesn't deafen sounds or hide blood. It really isn't difficult to track Survivors. The biggest thing it does is stop aura-reading.
The only Boon perk that needs changes in CoH.
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It's just this part that's the problem. It turns a Self Care into a normal medkit.
Take it out and we're golden.
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Make boons single use.
The survivors can bring up to four of these, and even if it is permanently disabled, you still get massive benefit from it no matter what. If the killer goes out of his way and breaks it, there's less gen pressure. If he doesn't break it, you have free med-kits for the entire match.
Additionally, make boons only affect the level they are on, to avoid boons being 1-2 floors above in specific maps still buffing survivors while making it literally impossible to snuff out without throwing (e.g the game, crotus penn).
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What!? COH is the strongest survivor perk and easily triumphs over these two killer perks.
NOED? Against good survivors, it gets you one kill, at best. Since everyone leaves asap, or they break it, and save, making you lose. Or, if they're stupid and altruistic, you can get more, but that's down to the survivors mistakes, not the strength of the perk or the killer outplaying them. Same for Devour Hope, a minute of exposed isn't really anything unless you're on a really strong killer at the right place, at the right time. Generally, it'll get you one or two quicker downs, but that's nothing compared to COH.
COH makes it so survivors are always healthy, making killers unable to snowball and forcing them into the 12 chases/12 hook game, which is impossible given how all the gens are typically done after 4-6 hooks.
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We are talking about which effect is more powerful.
Instant downs plus mori's or healing.
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Healing, especially since the survivor doesn't have to fix 3 gens to get it. Devour is a great perk... To teach new players what hex totems are. Against anyone else good luck having the totem survive to 3 stacks. That's part of why undying was changed in the manner it was (keeping tokens)
compared to a totem that needs no tokens to reach full effect, and can literally be reset at will, it's not even close.
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The games become really boring
DH and boons is all I see
They should only be able to use boons 2 times per match, give it tokens
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Actually its both: you get +100% healing speed and selfcare, which normally sets your healing speed to 50%, but which essentially gets completely ignored, because the +/- chancel each other out.
Other sources of healing get the full bonus, so if you unhook someone within the range of a CoH and have We will Make It, you heal at an insane speed.
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And Tinkerer has absolutely no cooldown whatsoever, so does other strong killer perks. A perk where you have to waste a lot of time finding a totem to give "self care" doesn't need a nerf. Survivors need more decent perks, not less.
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Here you go, fam.
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All of this talk about how strong they are, but after you snuff them they have no use at all
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And it's the healing, since it's the Killer who has to scrabble for every second of every match.
When a hit can take upwards of 2 minutes to happen, given the jungle gyms, pallets, and other BS, and be erased in a handful of seconds; the healing is stronger.
When the hit can take 2 minutes, and 3 gens can pop in 2 minutes, and the healing erases that hit in under 30 seconds; the healing is too strong.
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They don't know anything about their own game. You need to actually play it to understand it or hire someone who does. All they know is numbers proven when they said freddy was overperforming. "we don't know why but he is" and then proceeded to nerf everything because they were clueless and couldn't figure it out.
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if they nerf coh they better not make it a full BOON nerf COH is the only OP one Leave SHADOWSTEP and EXPO alone
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I'm sorry, but if your first hit takes TWO MINUTES, the issue isn't the game, it's you.
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Truth be told, a chase shouldn't take 2min of your time, at least not regularly.
Even against non-gen-rushing soloQ's the Gens would be flying left and right, because no one got anything today besides that one guy that you were chasing for 2 full minutes.
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Honestly in the right hands both are very powerful but lets make sure we get the entire situation out there before so it can be fairly judged.
COH takes 15 seconds to bless a dull totem and about double that for a Hex Totem. Medkits were already considered by most to be the most useful and beneficial item in the game and healing was already a strong counter to most killer's pressure. COH catapulted that into the stratosphere the way that it currently is now. In some cases killers can no longer hit and run which was a good strategy to not only build pressure but to also allow the Killer to break off of unfavorable chases. Now with COH that is no longer possible as it allows a safety net where the Survivor can heal within seconds.
Devour Hope on the other hand, is very different as even though it is powerful and can inflict a permanent Exposed status on Survivors it can only be done after it gains 3 or more tokens. That is very different from COH in a number of ways. You have to chase, down, hook and be at least 24 meters away from the hook to even gain 1 token. This process in and of itself can take several minutes unless the killer can snowball multiple downs and hooks while being 24 meters away from any hooked Survivor long enough in that situation to get a token. Also, it can be broken before getting any real value out of it as it is lit up at the beginning of the game therefore making it easier for it to be destroyed. Even Ruin: Undying, which protects this perk somewhat, isn't strong enough to protect in a meta where Survivors are actually "doing bones" (the irony) and unless you have a map with decent spawns (Midwich, Lerys, some swamp maps) then the majority of the time it will be found eventually before the Mori aspect even becomes a threat.
NOED on the other hand, is somewhat situational and can't really be gauged as well since it only activates after the Survivors power all five generators. In other words, it only activates in most cases when the Survivors are in a position to win the entire game and acts as one last hurdle to go against. It may get some kills unfairly but in most cases it can only be used effectively is to have a build that is made around the end game, such as NOED, Undying, and No Way Out or the other Survivors are making stupid altruistic plays.
Overall I find it truly ironic that the overall Totem mechanic, which was brought in by a Killer, is getting more mileage with a Survivor perk that is honestly more useful in more situations than any other Hex perk in existence right now. In my opinion it should be brought down to size a bit without taking a total hammer to it because the only alternative would be to bring Hex perks to the same standard to actually have an even playing field but that already happened once with old Ruin: Undying and we all know what happened to it.
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Again, people are confusing the issue I have.
As to the question of whether CoH or Devour Hope is stronger, it's CoH. As to whether CoH or NOED is stronger, tbh, I think they are equal.
My issue came with the guy saying that being able to heal yourself was a more impactful effect than being able to instant down/mori Survivors.
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I understand the point you are making and it is a good one. I did say after all that both are good in the right hands. The only thing that I am stating, however is that COH, depending on the situation, is more useful to Survivors than Devour Hope and NOED is to Killers. Just stating again that Devour Hope takes 3 tokens to even gain 1/2 of its true power and another 2 before you can freely Mori anyone. NOED is useless and a dead perk slot until towards the end of the game. The only reason I say that COH is more impactful is due to it having more uses and more life than any other Hex perk that exists because there is no limitation to it other than finding the totems to begin with, which perks also compensate for that downside, and can be used at all stages of the game. Also add in Survivor experience, skill level and coordination (the dreaded SWF lol) and it becomes even more elevated.
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You’re entitled to your opinion ofc but I have to thoroughly disagree. CoH is one of the strongest perks in the game and can flat out break some killers sometimes no matter how well they play, whereas NOED doesn’t even do anything half the time and is only strong when survivors misplay badly whilst refusing to counter it.
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Hey, so, can you look where I said CoH was weak? Can you find that?
No, because it's not.
People just take issue whenever NOED gets brought up as an unfair perk.
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I never said that you said CoH was weak? I’m just disagreeing with your opinion that NOED and CoH are the same strength. Of course you don’t think CoH is weak if you think NOED is strong and that they’re equal strength lol.
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they dont care. to the devs the killers are punching bags and sometimes the chain breaks and kills a survivor
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I actually think healing itself is very strong overall, even without coh. Backrubs can make hit and run styles difficult to maintain. Not really sure what the answer is but if you take an injury, there should be a real negative to it. Not undone in less than 30 secs.
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But that's not a fair context.
Yes, one-shots and outright murdering the survivor is stronger than a single heal, but that's looking at one part of a massive picture. If you look at everything, DH/NOED don't come close to the power of COH.
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I don't have to imagine it -- I've played solo against it numerous times. And escaped numerous times against that killer/build. And often with the entire team escaping with me, or at least there being more than one survivor escaping with me. And frankly, while I'm a decent enough survivor, I'm not anything God-tier so ... 🤔
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My opinion on Boons, even COH, has been evolving. The new Boon, Exponential, I'm not seeing run in my matches (either as killer or survivor). It's too situational and not worth the perk slot, IMO -- even Unbreakable itself can sometimes be a wasted perk slot, depending on the killer's playstyle. Shadowstep can be very powerful in the right hands (especially if paired up with Iron Will), but some survivors -- "raises hand" -- who aren't as good at breaking LOS in a chase effectively won't get as much usage out of it. Really good survivors likely can, but it's another perk I don't see run as often as I would expect it to be (much like Lucky Break isn't run, even though it's also extremely powerful when used in the same fashion).
I think COH is overpowered, but only in the sense that the boons can be relit over and over. Like the other powerful perks in the game, if used properly, it can literally be game-changing and almost game-breaking (as in a SWF group that sets up zones around the map -- and moves them strategically -- to constantly give teammates a place to reset). When used incorrectly -- like in a game where my teammate and I watched a Mikaela spend the entirety of the match moving a Boon from one spot to another, while never working on a gen, even when the last gen was ready to pop and she was at it! -- they lose their effectiveness.
When I play killer, it's rare to see a match that Boons -- almost always, COH -- aren't being run by at least one person. I've been recording match results, and through my last 136 survivor games, there was a Boon in play in slightly over 90% of those games, with multiple Boons being present in just under 40% of those games, so their introduction has definitely affected the Meta somewhat, at least through my experiences. I still think a Boon should be snuffable permanently -- which would give greater value to Hex: Pentimento -- but the jury is still out for me as to whether they're (meaning COH) an actual issue or not.
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