What is going on with camping
I just had to make an account to talk about this because I have noticed damn near every killer I go against is camping for some reason, it’s not even “haha insidious bubba” anymore it’s an actual issue where I’m waiting 20 minutes for a match that ends in 10 minutes with me watching the killer stare at me die. I know there’s a penalty to being in close proximity to hooks for killers but it’s nowhere near enough. I don’t know if it has to do with the new mmr but for some reason killers have started to think it’s somehow better to just stand there instead of actually playing the damn game
tl;dr insidious trickster is the new meta
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I must be lucky then, because I rarely play against facecampers.
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I find it painfully boring but the deck is so stacked against killers right now (especially if there is a survivor running CoH) that many have determined it's the only way they can be effective. I don't agree with that (I am still plenty effective as killer) but a lot of tactics that worked well like hit and runs or even just kicking generators doesn't work because every survivor gets a free unlimited med kit to use at any point.
Some killers have decided to tunnel instead and some have just given up on even that and just want to try to secure their kill. It also doesn't help that camping can be REALLY effective as there are a lot of survivors who throw themselves at the hook and just trade hooks. Why bother doing all the work of chases and getting tbagged at every pallet they slam on your head when you can get the survivors to come to you?
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People want to win in the PVP game and the devs have stacked the deck so much against them that they'll pretty much do whatever it takes to win. lots of people who never used to camp now do camp with the introduction of numerous buffs to already meta survivor perks, MMR and boons being a serious problem. Many other killers have just been so nerfed into the ground that camping is the only way they can actually secure a kill. I don't expect it to get much better since the only appetite for change in the community seems to be "The devs should punish/ban/beat up campers/tunnelers and not let them do it" rather than like, fixing the root issue which is killer being miserable and almost every killer besides 2 being a pile of garbage at top MMR. MMR is likely the biggest reason you see more camping now.
I personally rarely come up against face campers myself.
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I canmp at times because I know, the second that Survivor is free, I'm going to hear Circle Of OPealing pop, and he's going to be healed in 0.000000000000000045 seconds.
And now I have to spend time finding the totem, because anyone I hit will be able to literally stop behind a pre-dropped pallet and, using a medkit, self-heal before I can spend the 2.6 seconds breaking the pallet.
So blame Circle of OPealing; Killers basically can't win if it's in play, so we have to secure the kill instead of letting Survivors get infinite turbo-heals with a totem they can infinitely replace. (Thanks BHVR, for giving Survivors better totem perks than Killers! Really shows your priority! 🤡 )
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Your first mistake is waiting 20 minutes for a match. While, yes, my queue times have gotten longer, they're usually no longer than 5-6 minutes. If waiting over ten minutes becomes a consistent thing as a survivor, I'd end up leaving the game. Too much stupid crap to deal with in order to wait that long. Not just annoying killers, but crap teammates are just as bad if not worse.
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Ya lots of camping. And sweaty killers. At least at my MMR. I think some of it comes down to killers feeling they have to play that way/ Killers that just want to win and don't care if the game is fun for anyone else.
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Why should the Killer care about your fun over his attempt to win? Do you care about his? Do you slow down on gens if you have popped 3 and he has 0 hooks?
This is seriously the only game I've ever played where one side thinks 'You don't care about my fun!' is a valid statement to make to his opponent.
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I can't believe survivors still have something to complain about despite how braindead easy for survivor the devs design this game
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Lots of Killers have given up trying to play the game "fairly" it's a waste of time.
The game is so broken and survivor sided they're just learning to adapt
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I guess that’s true, I just can’t fathom how it’s any fun to just stand there. I know being a killer at this time is tough (tried playing some matches as killer and I wanted to rip my hair out” but is securing 1 or 2 kills the only way people can enjoy this game?
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I don't camp or tunnel even in the CoH meta because it's way more annoying trying to fight through DS and BT to tunnel one guy out. I still play killer cause I find the gameplay loop fun, but these devs have no idea how to balance. I basically get like 1 kill a game on average for the most part unless it's a real potato squad because of the killers I like to play. You'd think survivors would be appreciative that I play for as many hooks as possible, but nope, teabagged and clicked in the exit gates every single game lmao
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but survivors dont care if the game is fun for the killer so why should killers care if the game is fun survivors
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It's not fun for me when the survivors win because of gameplay design meant to coddle them, and then they tbag out the game acting like they're good. Maybe I wouldn't make sure none of you escapes if most survivors didn't act like sociopaths when they win.
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I find camping painfully boring too, even when I'm "supposed" to (like EGC), I won't just face camp. I certainly will proxy camp but I'd rather still go after people than to just sit there and stare at someone.
A survivor(s) have to REALLY piss me off for me to decide to just face camp them and make 100% sure that they die.
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I mean, if the stuff the peeps here mention was a, singular anecdote, you could brush it off, but getting the same story told on many different styles from different people gives it some sort a validity.
I will add my take to it: in today's meta survivors have a lot going for them and I think that the game on a whole is tilted in the survivors favor. Not as much as some peeps here paint it, but enough to be statistically significant.
And the MMR system added insult to injury. Once you leave the baby MMR regions and face any players that know their way around the game, things get very sweaty, very fast. You either take the suckerpunches, or you play sweaty yourself.
Playing killer is a lot of stress. Not the kind of stress you as a survivor experience, ie "oh damn he got his sight on me!" and then you get chased for 30-60s and then it's over anx you either hide and heal up or dangle from a hook.
As the killer you chase, while Tinkered informs you that two gens are ripe. Do you keel chasing? To you go for one of the gens? There, someone flashlighted you. While constantly eating pallets. While constantly getting looped at strong tiles. You down the survivor, hook him, two gens pop off, etc. You make one mistake and get punisht like mad for it. You have to sweat like you play in the finals of the dbd Olympics, but its just your run of the mill Tuesday match.
A sweaty game every now and then is ok, but when every game every day is an Olympic final, it eventually burns you out.
Some players cope by playing survivors, some by playing the three S tier killers.. and some by camping.
Mind you, I exaggerated a bit, but this is the root of the problem. Playing killer feels more like a chore and survivors lost all fear and respect for the killer... save for Bubbas chainsaw. You can't disrespect the chainsaw, it just doesn't work that way.
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Amen, it is INSANE. Survivors DEMAND that you not camp or tunnel them. Its like asking survivors to go touch EVERY remaining gen at least once after you have kicked the gen they got to 50% before coming back to even stop the regression...I don't see ANY survivor doing that. Do you know why? Because it is ABSURD! They can't get their head out of their @$$ to realize that camping/tunneling are two major tools on a killers arsenal. It is like pallets for survivors. Imagine if Killers ganged up and called survivors out for daring to drop a pallet...and when the survivors say that dropping pallets is a legit strategy all the killers laugh and say "yeah, I am tired of hearing that it's a legit strat arguement.." Truth is truth, no one calls un-sportsmanship on a defensive line in football for running a blitz...sometimes thats what you do, who cares if it isn't "fun" for the QB when they are rushed like that. STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT PEOPLE PLAYING WITHIN THE RULES! Gripe when they cheat. Often times I get bawled out by survivors for daring to bring an iridescent addon while they themselves have a SA and two BNPs. They don't understand...
The other truth is this, I have TRIED so so SO hard to play by these "survivor rules" and it puts me at a disadvantage. That causes me to lose. I would keep doing it if you know, I got thanked for that once in a while. you know what happens 99% of the time? You guessed it, tbags at the exit gates and EZ BABY killer in the post game....or someone once told me "I would tell you to ######### but I bet you would be bad at that too..." But....if I kill everyone by, you know....actually playing efficiently, then I get called a trash killer...camper...tunneler. So I get abused in the end NO MATTER WHAT I DO...so I may as well get abused for winning than made fun of for following your absurd survivor rules. Until the survivor community bands together and show ANYTHING other than abuse for their killers...you LITERALLY give me NO reason to not camp and tunnel when it makes sense for me to do so. Maybe, next time you DO escape a killer and they were playing by your rules, you won't tbag them and clicky them and gloat...its a lack of grace in winning that makes killers NOT care about your fun, because you are CERTAINLY looking out for yours, and mostly at the humiliation of the killer.
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You realize that a lot of people have reported survivor que times going up right?
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Same...only seen 1 today.
Pretty much killers do this because most trials there are not enough time to play for hooks. To many pallets, ######### maps, boons, etc so they camp to get kills. Issue is this keeps them in the current level of purgatory that their complaining about.
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THIS! You hit the nail on the head with your post and I hope that many people read it and give it some thought; even though it contains litte new information, but mostly the same old, same old. But when issues get constantly and constantly and constantly brought up, because they are still a very, very, very, VERY big problem, yet for every step forward it feels like 3 things get nerfed, then somethings awry.
I am willing to make concessions and take into account my bias, but in the way the killer community is not only in arms, but many openly stating that they don't care anymore, then something should be done, and better then later.
Camping and tunneling have become a problem, I can see that, but this is the killers bandaid to the myriad of problems plaguing their gameplay. Anf I honestly hope that the solution will be a stab at this problems roots and giving the killers some incentive to play differently, and not again a nerf, debuff or other punishment. Don't use the stick over and over, and only the stick, remember that the carrot can be an even stronger tool.
I myself consider me a pretty capable killer main and I am doing pretty well and have an above average kill rate of 2,66, yet even I feel the burnout. I can't play game after game, without some bigger breaks, something that I don't experience with other games, competitive or not. I really love playing the killer, and I play by most survivor rules, but please, don't hurt the killer community any more and listen to their complaints.
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Players will always take the path of least resistance. Is it necessary to camp in most instances? No. But the alternative is actually learning to play tiles and learning to effectively manage a game. That takes quite a bit more time and effort.
The vast majority of killers who hard camp me while the gens are up spent that chase running most tiles inefficiently/incorrectly while also allowing the map to be split. It shouldn't be viable, but solo survivors tend to stop what they're doing as soon as someone is on a hook.
It's not a necessary tactic even in the current meta unless you have a great gen set up and have the hook inside of it. Killers are just hurting themselves in the long run by not learning basics, especially if the devs nerf camping.
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Getting them in before Camping gets looked at.
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With numerous recent killer nerfs, new additions of boons (largely CoH), and validation that can be frustrating to deal with.
It's really no surprise that many killers are opting to play in a way where they don't have to deal with the above.
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I have over 2500 hours played on Steam and around 1K on Console before that. Killer main and have never camped a survivor until the boon's came out. Today I literally uninstalled the game because camping is pretty much the only way to do anything with a 3+ SWF if they are equally ranked survivors. If you get a random queue than you are playing against 1 decent survivor and 3 people who just downloaded the game and it's terribly easy. You're either camping for 1 maybe 2K or 4K'ing with 3+ gens left. Neither one is fun for either side IMO.
The game has unfortunately reached that tipping point to where it's way more aggravating than satisfying. I feel the people calling the shots are so consumed with getting new players by churning out new killers every 3 months by partnering with an established horror movie/game they are forgetting you need a stable player base. If someone new comes in that just purchased the game and go against a Red Rank 1 killer its not going to be very fun and they will more than likely uninstall.
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If you're going against face campers a lot, focus on escaping no matter what to push your MMR up. Typically at high MMR there's killers playing harder including stuff like proxy camping and 2-hooking, but not as much face camping unless it's at the very end. Until the game becomes much less survivor sided, I'm afraid a nerf to camping will just destroy the game.
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Define camping.
Facecamping? Yeah, that's annoying. It's also pretty rare, outside of the always fun basement bubbas. The devs have acknowledged the issue but it's a knotty one to fix in a way that doesn't break other stuff.
Proxy camping? It's entirely legitimate. You aren't supposed to be guaranteed a free unhook.
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Thank you, sometimes it takes someone seeing it from a different set of words for it to actually click. When you say camping and tunneling are a problem, I have to agree with you. As in, it shouldn't be the only viable trick left in our dwindling book of tricks to use. Again, though, it isn't a killer problem...or killer's fault as many survivors would like to point the finger at. It is a fault of the game design at this point in time. Survivors, instead of getting mad at killers SHOULD be voicing the concern to the devs, in SUPPORT of the killers. And I agree with your carrot/stick statement 100%! Stop asking the killers to be punished for doing things and give them good reasons to play other ways, then when the devs see that the killers aren't winning by playing the incentivized ways, they will realize that it the killers need retooling.
Case in point, devs have the opposite mindset right now. The survivors at high rank were complaining about facing the SAME 3 (or so) killers over and over and over. That was the case because they were the ONLY killers that were viable...the only ones that could keep up...the devs looked at this and heard that we need to lower the rate at which survivors are likely to encounter them...by NERFING them...instead of raising the other killers UP they squashed the only remaining viabilities down...and then in desperation, some people get REALLY good with killers who were considered DOG $HIT before...deathslinger, blight...yes, at one point these guys on MANY peoples tier lists were mid to low at best...then someone figured out some REALLY useful tricks, shared those methods and the killer was not only viable but could actually give these high tier survivors a (small) run for their money...and since survivors tend to accept nothing less than power stomping people into the ground, they mistake an actual challenge for being "unbalanced".
And lets not forget the other elephant in the room. The SWFs...how can you allow an advantage into a game that it was never balanced for? Outside communication was NOT intended and it CLEARLY isn't balanced for it...but the devs know they can't stop it if they wanted to and supposedly either SWFS are very rare (some say) and they are the bulk of the survivor community (others say)...it can't be both...but in any event, my opinion...RANKED GAMES SHOULD NOT BE OPEN TO SWF...ranked games should be the purest form of competition in the game...make another mode to "chill with your friends" if that is what you want to do. There seems to be a LOT of SWFs that do it and practice for the sole purpose of not only beating the killer, but with the added toxic intent of humiliating and bullying the killer. And many times, when I have managed to shut these people down, the DC en mass and abuse me in post game...because If I managed to stop them from bullying I apparently am a jerk. Killers, they have their own problems too I am not going to pretend that this is one sided. But as it goes with camping and tunneling...your perks, and your SKILLS are what is supposed to counter that. As in any sport...like if you look at volleyball, its unrealistic to have one side say the other side isn't allowed to spike the ball because you don't like to dive to save it but YOU are allowed to do it all you want. Camping has counterplay, tunneling HAS COUNTERPLAY...if you can't be bothered to learn how to counter that...you shouldn't be playing at the higher MMR you seem to want to aspire to., GOOD teams, good survivors KNOW what to do with those things...they don't demand the killer just not do it...that is like playing games with your 3 year old cousin and being asked to take it easy on them because they have NO CHANCE otherwise. So if survivors are asking the camping and tunneling to go away...to me it sounds like a 3 year old playing basketball with you but you have to play one handed and on your knees just to give him a shot of winning....don't be a toxic crying 3 year old, survivors...be better than that...stop asking the other side to tie hands behind their back. If you don't know how to counter these things, PM me...I will be happy to tell you and we can move ON.
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Because Survivors have a million ways to cheat death now, that making sure you never get off that hook is now the best way to get around them.
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Been noticing way more face-campers as of late. I just don't get it. It can't possibly be fun to just stand still for half the match. You're not even really playing the game at that point, so why queue up at all? Play something else if you're that frustrated.
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A lot of them did in fact move on to play something else or play survivor. It’s why the queue for survivors has increased and the active player base (on Steam at least) has been declining the last few months.
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Yes. And probably 99% are killer mains. Sorry, but my surv queue is about 5secs
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That's so strange for every 10 survs that say the q times get longer you always have one guy like you who has instant games and I find that kinda strange cause my wife is a survivor only player and I watched her q times get longer and longer over time
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DBD's average player count and peak player count (on Steam) are both higher than the beginning of the year. So unless the console base has dropped off significantly (which I doubt), I don't think the issue is people leaving. I'd be hard pressed to believe the -5,202 Gain from October into November is exclusively Killer mains.
As for the topic...
Camping works. I 4k more frequently whilst camping than I do while "playing nice." I'm sure the people playing killer in OP's games want to win more than they want to provide an enjoyable experience for all involved.
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thank you to the killer mains for the feedback as to why you think camping has become somewhat common now, to see from your pov I decided to only play killer for a while and Jesus Christ I understand now. I’ve always thought CoH was a situational healing boost and nothing more when I play survivor but it became the bane of my existence as killer. I’ve never noticed how loopy some of the loops are (and how useless bloodlust can be) how little mobility you have unless playing a killer who’s specific power is mobility, even then I played billy and it was so hard to control him I was hitting walls more than survivors. And gens, don’t get me started on gens, I remember when ruin was in the store and I had to use my totem hunter build so much because every killer was using it. but now I’m kicking myself for not getting it myself because the speed at which gens get done is baffling. I still couldn’t bring myself to camp because it got boring and I’d end up on my phone and the survivor would get unhooked anyway but even if I think it ruins the enjoyment of both parties I can see why some people do it
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VERY commendable response! You kept an open mind and took info into consideration and then you verified that info for yourself. You are a GD UNICORN man....rare AF. Peace my friend.
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Either provide video proof or I'm calling bullshit on that cause even my killer ques aren't 5 secs and killer ques are always faster
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murder
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The gains and losses don't need to be exclusively killer/survivor to seriously affect queue times, because one killer player has the same 'lobby weight' as 4 survivor players.
BDB has a small enough player base that even slightly lopsided gains or exits can seriously affect queue times. We already have pretty good info that we have had a killer shortage for a pretty damn long time (killer queues were always shorter), which means further shocks to the killer playerbase can have even worse outcomes.
The June-July patches where we see the huge spike of incoming players was related to the RE chapter, which brought a massive amount of attention from survival horror players far more likely to play survivor. The player dieoff from that was an unusually high seasonal spike about a month after boons were introduced, which means it probably wasn't just RE players leaving (after all we saw most of the dropoff there in August, though only about half the influx left then before a spike of people trying the new survivor), but a reaction to that patch.
In the period of a month 10% of the userbase bailed on the game. If even half of those were killers, that would be VERY bad for queue times, as even assuming we HAD a 1:4 ratio of killer to survivors (meaning we had 10,000 killers and 40,000 survivors, which is very unlikely to be honest) that would result in a dieoff of about 25% of the killer population while only 5% of the survivor population left.
And, again, it is extremely unlikely we had a 1:5 ratio. In fact, that would be undesirable for queue math (this is a very mathy engineering thing but basically you don't want 1 killer for every 5 survivors because survivors are more monetizable and you don't actually improve wait times that much compared to say... 1 killer to 8, because of how rolling exits from the game work, having half as many killers as you need doesn't lead to double wait times as long as your close), but it matters a lot for sudden shocks because that results in things that resemble service disruptions (which is why you can get up to 1000% increases in wait times despite the population overall not dropping that severely most likely).
And this is before you also factor in the fact that it is likely a specific SEGMENT of the population that left those months, of killers facing survivors utilizing degenerate strategies that place them at high MMR getting burnt out, which makes the population even smaller and thus even more vulnerable to sudden shocks.
We don't know the EXACT numbers here, but there is a lot of evidence that, in fact, killers ARE leaving the game in noticeable numbers.
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i've been noticing a lot of facecampers, and they're all hardcore trickster mains.
they get really pissy when you loop them for any amount of time, and will camp you to death while hitting you on hook and nodding their heads, it's really strange cause it just kind of happened all at once.
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You bring up some good notes. However, neither of us have any hard data to present so I think it would be a waste of both our times to try and continue presenting any counter points.
I do want to note:
- Queue times for Survivor were fantastic at the start of 2021, and we are up 8-10,000 players on Steam alone since then. June, July & August is largely irrelevant for studying what is going on here, as the average player count is still contuining its current trajectory
- DBD is no longer the "small game" that people keep claiming it is. Small was back in 2017 when the average player count was around 22k. We've more than doubled that number on Steam alone, and the introduction of cross-play has allowed DBD a larger player pool to queue from. The cumulative player count is now enough to overshadow PC-only multiplayer games.
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If your games are lasting 10 minutes against a face camper, I assume it is because you are in the lowest mmr brackets where survivors are allergic to generators. I recommend playing immersed until he finds someone else and then doing 3 to 4 gens yourself for an easy escape.
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So how do you, as survivor, try to make the game more fun for killers? I mean, what's the rule you follow that hurts your game to make sure killers get at least a kill?
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Primarily a killer player here... when I play solo survivor I run totem builds so I can bust every dull to keep my teammates from booning them because CoH is complete bullshit
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Not trying to be rude but I love how you say it's continue it's trajectory but even the graph you posted shows it going down and down these past few months I'm sorry I just found that hilarious 😂
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It is clearly on an upward trend.
If you've never seen Steam Charts before, that tail end downward slope is this month, and it will be up above the red line by the end of January.
The current month is always "down" until the month ends, and then it reveals its true position. Considering we should be receiving a mid-chapter patch this month, the average player count will most assuredly be higher in January than it was in December.
...and if you are reffering to the hill in the middle of 2021, that is just the rise and fall of players following the announcement and release of the Resident Evil chapter. You will notice that 2020 has the same, albeit smaller, spike in the middle of the year--this was for the Silent Hill chapter. And again, 2019 had a spike for the Ash vs Evil Dead chapter and in 2018 for the release of Spirit (and probably a marketing campaign).
These spikes are not indicative of the overall trend, which is that DBD is rising in popularity and growing at a steady rate.
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To be honest I think that we need something new. Survivors don't have a way of dealing with camping or at least a good way of dealing with it. And killers shouldn't feel like they need to camp or be incentives to camp. To be honest I don't have a solid answer. Just realizing that sometimes i have a good game and there a bunch of times I don't get to play very much.
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Should be fun for both sides. Makes for a better game. Perhaps we need some ethics, or play etiquette. How you enforce it would have to be something the Developers implement.
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Never said that. The game should be fun for everyone playing. Just seeing that from the forums its not fun for a lot of people right now.
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You need to camp to get kills reliably.
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Try Plague...
I get 2 DCs on average every game from salty survivors who can't use their boon totems.
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