Is removing Bubba's masks can really prevent the hateful behaviors?
Firstly, I don't support any hateful or unsportable behaviors ingame. For me, game is the place for getting fun after works.
But I really concern about some points after reading the recent dev notes:
- Do you really think the BMs can not find other ways to spread the their hatefulness?
- If I play some killer likes Spirit / Oni / Trickster, should I hook or sacrifice Jack / Feng / Yun-Jin or any Asian related survivors?
- If I play as Feng / Jack / Claudette / Elodie / Tapp / Adam / Yun-Jin, may I report someone who camped me as racist behavior? Will they get banned?
- Will I get banned if I miss to mention any PoC or Asian killers or survivors on above points
- 6000 iri shards compensation, wow, so generous. We literally lost 4 pieces of cosmetic in-game, one piece might cost 400 auric cells. So with 6000 shards, may we buy any single piece of Bubba's cosmetic as a COMPENSATION? And hold on, can we use iri shard to purchase license content?
Tbh, I think the report system is the first thing which should be improved than any other.
Comments
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No. No matter what they do there will be always a people that will harass other people because of their color of skin. Removing bubba's masks is honestly pointless at this point.
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No, but it LOOKS like BHVR is doing something while they do next to nothing. So it's what they will do. 😇
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This content has been removed.
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Easy way to answer this is how many people knew this was a thing? However, this will not prevent hateful behavior at all since the people who do it will still do it and there's still no meaningful report system to curve the problem. Also, I don't know why but the actual toxic behavior is being defended when you got people saying "just don't let it get to you" and such.
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I'll be honest, I've never seen a single one of the earnable bubba cosmetics, ever in my whole time playing.
I strongly question anybody that says they've run into 'so many' bubbas wearing claudette's face to be racist.
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It removes a tool used for racist behavior.
If you had neighbors that hated you and they kept vandalizing your car overnight by throwing eggs out of the basket of eggs you keep on your front lawn, removing the basket of eggs you keep on your front lawn probably wouldn't stop it all together, but it would remove a method they use to do it. That's the point.
Limiting ways people can cause harm to others is important as well.
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It's weird that BHVR punishes everyone for the actions of a few racists.
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I got your point, but:
- Cosmetics do not have any impact in term of gameplay, the BM can not take advantage to do a racist behavior.
- As my first PoV, there always will be a way for them to continue their hateful behaviors.
- Please don't suggest us to cut-off metaphor content that being used to spread BM's hatefulness.
- So which one should be cut out of the game next? All killers and survivors in different races?
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This is sound reasoning and all, but where does it end? If it continues happening, are you going to go to all the stores in your area and demand they stop selling eggs? Go to all the farmers where the eggs come from and tell them to start raising other animals?
You can't ever stop these things in their entirety and all you do by removing things like this is show them that what they were doing really bothered you. So then they'll KEEP doing it. By any avenues left to them, and likely more vehemently than ever. Nothing infuriates people like this more than your indifference.
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Nope.
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Remember theae are the people that removed pinhead voice lines cause of Dr. Evil air quotes "a bug" when we all know the real reason.
They are removing it to avoid any PR fasco. I have not once in my over 3k hours had a game against leatherface where I saw them abuse that skin.
Lol laughable.
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Thanks they don't remove Leatherface.
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No slippery slope fallacies, thank you.
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It won't.
This is simply a token move where bhvr can pretend like they care about racism. They aren't addressing the problem, but they can pat themselves on the back for a job well done.
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I mean, yes, but now nobody gets to have eggs and you still have racist neighbors that have it out for you.
Because this is less about you personally leaving a basket of eggs out on the lawn and more that eggs exist.
I dislike this change because it lets BHVR pretend like they're doing something about their awful community without having to actually deal with their awful community. I truly doubt that removing Smartface is going to reduce instances of racist behavior at all, because it is sidestepping the issue that moderation is really slow and user-unfriendly and players can get away with so much garbage before they finally get the boot because action on BHVR's part takes so. damn. long. The situations where a PoC streamer gets matched with or streamsniped by a racist shitheel - is the outcome actually going to be any different now that the shitheel doesn't have Smartface? I'm not convinced.
Seems to me like the problem here is the racist neighbors not getting evicted, not the basket of eggs.
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They're just caving to Twitter woke activists like so many others have because they think it stops it, but they just get mad at BHVR about the next thing they can find. If BHVR actually cared about stopping toxic behavior, they'd actually ban people and police their endgame chat, but they don't. They don't want to actually ban anyone because it means less cosmetic purchases
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Going through this point by point:
"Do you really think the BMs can not find other ways to spread the their hatefulness?"
- Some will be discouraged by it and some won't. Those who continue to harass others may find other ways to do it. Although, removing the masks has made it harder for them to do so and has removed something that has proven to be very harmful to POC. Racists will have to be more obvious about it now, making it easier to catch them and prove it. The main aims of the removal of Leatherface's masks was to take away a tool that racists used to hurt others and to help POC feel comfortable while playing Dead by Daylight.
"If I play some killer likes Spirit / Oni / Trickster, should I hook or sacrifice Jack / Feng / Yun-Jin or any Asian related survivors?
- You should continue to play the game as you normally would. You're not going to be seen as racist unless you go out of your way to only hurt and harass Asian people. Often it was a combination of in-game and out-of-game harassment via the use of stream sniping, hateful messages and names, facecamping and tunnelling.
"If I play as Feng / Jack / Claudette / Elodie / Tapp / Adam / Yun-Jin, may I report someone who camped me as racist behavior? Will they get banned?"
- You should only be reporting people if you know/suspect that they're were doing it with racist intentions. If they're camping everyone, only camping because they didn't play well or camping you during endgame it is likely that they're not being racist.
"Will I get banned if I miss to mention any PoC or Asian killers or survivors on above points"
- I'm not sure what you mean here but hopefully I have answered your question with my previous points.
"6000 iri shards compensation, wow, so generous. We literally lost 4 pieces of cosmetic in-game, one piece might cost 400 auric cells. So with 6000 shards, may we buy any single piece of Bubba's cosmetic as a COMPENSATION? And hold on, can we use iri shard to purchase license content?"
- I'm personally not bothered about the compensation that was given out as I never cared for the cosmetics anyways but I have seen other people say that they would have preferred Auric Cells as well.
I also agree that the report system could use improvements but I believe that the removal of the masks was a great decision and a step in the right direction.
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I think the report system is the first thing which should be improved than any other.
This. Racists will still be racists, but they'd have to do it elsewhere is they were banned. Leave Bubba's masks alone!
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What do you do when lots of people are throwing eggs from your basket to your house nonstop?
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That is not a solution. Hell, it can't even be considered a band-aid. BHVR effectively did 2 things:
1) give more power to the racists/trolls because they got what they wanted....a reaction.
2) hurt the enitre community instead of targeting the very small percentage of players that act like a-holes.
If you think this is somehow a positive, you are diluted. These players will still be racists/trolls, BHVR hasn't addressed or fixed anything.
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Throwing eggs? That sounds so... "American"? Anyway, bad analogy and I am sure it's a falacy, since you can't remove every egg basket nor will avoid the harmful behaviour... And to the topic at hand, no one harass anyone with the LF masks. If you've earn one of those by killing 25 survivors. Won't you be proud of it and display it? They're removing them because some people believes it's blackface which is not. And I've seen their statements of "perhaps behaviour don't know since they're canadian but in US history" and yadda yadda but people have harmed people all across the world, and yes, racism of black people towards white people do exist, and it's on the history books if you really like history. Saying about US history and taking the black slavery times is being an ignorant of worldwide history and feeling special because you know a single fact about history.
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I have 5k hours and I've seen it like 20 times at best.
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Wait, are they actually removing those? Do you know how many hours I spent face camping and lobby shopping to earn them? What the hell? This is Bubba erasure.
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Isnt end game chat also a tool for racist behavior though? Why does it have such a crappy censure system that doesnt work half the time?
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I'm not really interested in pursuing this metaphor, as I don't think it reflects the situation at hand. When it was nonstop, it was the acts of a few people at most repeatedly targeting the same player. The number of players who used Smartface to harass are an extremely small portion of the playerbase who had a disproportionate effect because they were not dealt with in a timely manner.
If we are going to keep going with this metaphor, I'd still say arrest the people, because eggs are important foodstuffs and necessary to bake so many things, and I want them as food more than I don't want them as tools of harassment; eggs bring more good to the table than they bring bad. Banning eggs because people have been egged is silly. That said, I consider eggs more important than Bubba cosmetics and this whole thing falls apart really quickly.
Still... I maintain that the issue is the people, not the vehicle. Removing Smartface did nothing to stop the people who want to be racist twats from being racist twats, and they are still going to be racist twats until BHVR addresses the real problem in this room and cobbles together a moderation system that doesn't operate on spit, triplicate, and month-long backlogs.
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I personally don't understand anyone who would choose to not believe someone just because your personal experiences are different.
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"The number of players who used Smartface to harass are an extremely small portion of the playerbase who had a disproportionate effect because they were not dealt with in a timely manner."
Based on what information?
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If there is proof enough to take this action then punish the players, don't take something away from the rest of us after we put the time in to earn it.
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Precisely! This very well explained and gets right to the point.
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That would require them to actually review reports. This is easier.
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The thing is, there isn't enough proof. A lot of the examples that are showcased every time this issue is talked about (always by the same people, mind you), is people who dc when they see the player using the mask, because they get offended by it. Also people who think that just because the killer is using that mask and is facecamping, they assume the killer is doing it because they're racist.
It's just assumptions after assumptions with no actual evidence.
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Common sense? Personal experience? The majority of players not being screamingly racist and instead being here to play the game? What information do you have to prove otherwise? Because if you want to tell me that a significant portion of this playerbase griefs based on race, I think you're the one holding the burden of proof here.
I'm certainly not going to assume anyone who was using the Smartface mask was racist until they did something to corroborate that. Take any of the following.
-Chat abuse
-Facecamping/nodding/hitting a Claudette/Elodie/Tapp/Adam while ignoring all other survivors, and deliberately letting everyone who is white escape. Facecamping/nodding/hitting everyone he catches is kind of just a Bubba thing at this point.
-The above also has to happen devoid of any other context; i.e., if the targeted player was tbagging the Bubba or got a flashlight save on him, the Bubba may just be salty.
If we're going to assume everyone who used Smartface was racist, or even Schrodinger's racist, that is a problem.
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So you are making a baseless assumption is what I am reading.
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You are too, so I don't think you really have one up on me here.
Show me a reason not to assume the default and we can continue this discussion. Otherwise, we're done here.
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I never made a claim on the severity on this issue.
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Shouldn't all Leatherface masks be removed. If one Leatherface mask is considered racist because it is a skin color, then all Leatherface masks should be considered racist.
Why wouldn't Leatherface's default "white-skin" face be removed. It can be used in the exact same way except with white characters.
Why shouldn't female Leatherface's costume be remove since it could be used against anyone running the LGBT rainbow.
You can't do one mask and not include all masks.
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Exactly this.
Furthermore, i don't need smartface to be using 'blackface.' As a white guy i can play doctor and it is exactly the same thing. An in game cosmetic. (Personally i think they should have added ALL the survivors' faces to the mask pool.)
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Jussie Smollet
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Take it up with the IP holder if you want Leatherface's default cosmetic to be removed. :P
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What I'm saying is that if 1 mask is racist, then all masks are racist. You can't say "this skin colors" mask is racist and not say "other skin color masks" aren't racist. You are basically saying that it's ok discriminate against the races you aren't removing. Especially the female Leatherface, you can't tell me that isn't disrespectful to the LGBT community if the "smart face" is disrespectful to it's community.
You can't play "thought police", Behavior.
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I just hope other things don't start being completely removed. These bad apples essentially caused the masks to be removed because they used them as a tool to be racist. So they could effectively end up having end game chat and player names removed as they have the potential to be used as a tool to allow for racism. It's a slippery slope.
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If I read it correctly, they do remove ALL masks, not just Smartface. But it won't do any good if the report system remains in its current state. The a-holes who were going out of their way to find and aggravate players are still in the game or made a new account by now and can come back to stream snipe and harass the same part of the player base. So, as long as there is no IP ban, they will keep abusing the existing cosmetics and mechanics to bully people.
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To use your example here...
Your racist neighbor throws eggs at you, so you town bans the ownership of eggs from everyone to stop racist activities. Your racist neighbor doesnt stop harrassing you, they just move on to using paintballs next, then toilet paper if THAT gets banned.
Banning a cosmetic does nothing to stop the harrassment since the cosmetics werent needed to harrass anyone to begin with. This does nothing
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You seem to be ignoring some critical context in how the masks were used, which is what is dictating BHVR's response.
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"If the masks were the TRUE issue, lock cosmetic changes once your in a lobby. (if that wasn't the case already.)"
This change doesn't do anything if people load in as Claudette or Adam.
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Hey, your suggestion was obviously flawed. :P
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It’s easy to fall in to the slippery slope fallacy but honestly I think it’s a non issue unless someone is actually using it to harass people and then we will examine the situation and hopefully address it accordingly. I do believe everyone agrees that this shows the obvious need for a functional reporting system. Our conversations shouldn’t be on “if what happened was racist” that’s not debatable but what our course of action should be and the best way to handle the influx of bigotry in the dbd community. I’m honestly glad that people in this thread are having reasonable conversations and concerns instead of denying the racism around this situation. My main focus in all of this is to prevent people from being harassed and if this prevents one harassment from happening then imo it’s worth mr. I want dbd to the same amazing escape for others as it is for me. I also would like to leave the information that artist of the masks requested for the masks to be removed as well.
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Can you point to any examples of this happening in-game? ;P
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I asked you to point to examples of this actually happening. :P
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If you have no examples you can point to of your stated scenarios actually happening, I have no reason to consider them as valid. Thanks. :)
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