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If removing a tool that is used for hate crimes that target specific communities...
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Deflection.
Edit - I'm actually going to respectfully disengage.
Most people here are already smart enough to see what you're doing.
Hope 2022 treats you well.
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Some do deflect yes, because they would rather deal with the actual topic at hand than give unnecessary attention to those who do not add anything to the conversation.
Life is too short for that, even in 2022. 😉
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Yes, sophistry. You are somehow trying to draw a correlation between facecamping and bigotry, based on third hand non-specific anecdotes, while ignoring the fact that this exact same argument could be applied to a wide variety of other negative actions within the game.
But okay - let me throw this one back to you.
How exactly is facecamping a tool of bigotry in a way that, say, endlessly flashlight spamming someone because they are a minority group streamer isn't?
And yes, facecamping is a strat. It's a cheesy one, and one that I do think that needs to be changed - but not due to any connection to potential bigotry, but because it's too effective for the amount of effort it takes and because it's frustrating to go against. This should be done in conjunction with looking into why killers feel the need to facecamp. What is it about the role on specific characters that makes them adopt this style? Do they need help in other areas?
You can't just 'remove facecamping'. I simply cannot think of a way of doing this that wouldn't be abused endlessly by survivors or result in a huge, sweeping nerf to all killers. I already have survivors running me around hooks so that I need to choose between dropping chase and eating a penalty.
I'm not being cynical. I'm saying that your argument is absurd and comes over as self serving. The exact argument you are making could be applied to nearly every offensive action within the game, and a bunch of others.
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Fun fact: in the game files survivors are called campers and killers are called slashers.
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So are you saying that the people who brought it up to BHVR (Basically what started this whole situation) didn't also showcase that these Bubbas that use the mask didn't also point out that they were being face-camped as further evidence? Meaning that there was nothing they could do, because it is a playstyle that promotes it?
You are the one who is trying to make this about me, when it isn't. I specifically explained how I have seen it as a "common denominator" in these situation AS IN maybe it is something they need to consider when adjusting whatever they are to face-camping.
It isn't my problem if you are seeing it from a different perspective than the one I have already explained.
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Ok next time im getting call a camper i will say that to the survivor XD
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Sigh.
No, I'm saying that the facecamping is incidental. Neither you nor anyone else knows or can know that they were doing it to be a bigot, unless there is some sort of trend (which we wouldn't be privy to) or they admitted as much in postgame (which would be easily reportable).
Hell, I get threatened with a report at least once a week because I 'tunneled someone because they are playing Claudette/Adam/Tapp/Jake/what have you/wearing a Pride charm', despite me not doing anything of the sort. Hell, I don't even really notice the avatar someone is playing, aside from a few because they are either louder/quieter than average or because people playing Ash/Ace/Dwight tend to be more toxic, from my experience.
Beyond this, the people who 'brought it up to BHVR', from my understanding, weren't complaining about being facecamped. It was a tenuous connection between the masks and another archaic signifier of bigotry. That seems to be where most of the discourse was happening on both sides of this.
I'm saying that I think it's your personal beef with facecamping because I don't see other alternatives. Your explanation seems to be 'x person says that they were facecamped by someone because of their race'. I'm saying that:
- How do they know that it was? If a Bubba is wearing a Claudette mask and camps an Adam, is that automatically bigoted, even if it was just a matter of them downing that person first?
- How do you know that they are correct?
- How is this different from being BMed in some other way because of their race?
Do you see what I mean?
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The people (streamers) who claimed they were harassed by the blackface Bubba face-camping them, received messages afterwards regarding the incident. Hence why I bring it up. It is a busted playstyle that has been generally used to BM other players so why wouldn't the racist ones also not take advantage of it too? You have a blackface Bubba and a face-camping tactic which is just the recipe they need.
Am I saying we need to lump everyone of those Bubbas into one criteria? Absolutely not.
What I am saying is that, they are using this less than fun playstyle as a part of their convenient "tool" because they know that Leatherface is the only killer who can get away with it. Because I feel like if it was any other killer there are more options to save that player to where it would ease some of this specific situation.
The fact that they get an advantage towards their own objective is just icing on the cake.
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Please remember to stay civil on this post. I understand that it's an emotive topic for some people but please keep your comments towards one another civil.
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Okay, I think you're missing my point. Let me try rephrasing.
I don't think that it's a playstyle used to BM other players. It could potentially be used like that, but that's true of...basically everything in this game. The masks: I understand. I disagree strongly with BHVR on the removal (I think it's a terrible, anti-egalitarian approach), but I do understand their reasoning and it's not a battle I'm really interested in fighting anymore.
Facecamping? That I'm not following.
But okay, let's assume your perspective.
How do you 'remove' facecamping, and what do you do when these same hypothetical players just start tunneling? Remove tunneling?
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What does your sexual preference have to do with Claudette and Bubba?
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I am not asking for them to remove face-camping, I am asking for them to adjust it. Two very different things. I've said this since the beginning of my post.
I also understand that they are also already planning something to address it. What I was doing was trying to bring light to the fact that this 'tactic' was used predominantly (whether you agree or not that it can be a form of BM) by killer players who are simply looking to make sure that this one survivor has a bad experience, so I can see why those that were using it for racist purposes would too.
I don't have the answer to what they can do, but I wanted to bring it up as a discussion being that the devs have stated they condemn this type of BHVR. From my experience after playing for 6.4k hours and being face-camped more times than I can count, I think that they should look at Bubba's ability exclusively, because as I pointed out before no other killer is capable of doing this. So that would be at least a start.
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I hate to break this to you buddy but they've been saying they are looking at face camping for years
This is the same studio that took 2 years to come up with an release a kills and escapes based mm as what they call sbmm as if their is anything skillful about simply securing a kill with noed or simply hiding all game and getting carried by the team
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Yeah, I think we are talking past each other now. Going to let this lie.
Regarding facecamping, Bubba is likely the 'best' at it, but Myers, Ghostface, Billy, Hag and several other killers using certain addons/perks can also do it really well. The thing is - 'fixing' facecamping is nearly impossible. I've actually tried to think of a way myself, and I can't. Every solution I come up with would be a huge buff to survivors.
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I think everybody knows this, but they have never addressed it in the way they did during the Q & A.
Understandably, no one can really assume that things will change sooner or later, but the fact that it was brought up gives me hope they will commit to balancing it.
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They've brought up tons of stuff that has never seen the light of day
Theyve mentioned a early game mechanic to help killers at the start of the game
Never saw it
Theyve mentioned making Mori's basekit
Never seen it
They've mentioned gf and legion reworks
Never seen it
Theyve mentioned revealing gf was getting looked at
Never seen it
They've mentioned for years console optimization was getting looked at
Never seen it
I'm not trying to be negative Nancy I'm just saying I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were you
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Did you really just try to take a racial issue and make it a reason to get rid of face camping.....then slap that your "LGBTQ" to make it sound like you're trying to get rid of it for the good fight?
Didn't know we were playing forum limbo here, can any one get any lower?
Listen is face camping an issue? Yes, how ever, it's a legitimate tactic atm specially with how quickly survivors can heal a damage state with an infinite CoH boon because they can just put it back together after it's destroyed with out the need of another perk. Hence why tunneling is done even more now as well since it'll reduce the amount of people on gens. No real way around it.
The game has problems, don't use a real issue as an excuse to get rid of an in-game one.
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Not to mention 'removing perk tiers', which would have been an amazing solution to the grind.
Wait, I know exactly why that never happened and I wish I didn't.
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I agree every player complains about the grind whether a vet or a new player so I really don't know why they wasn't addressed or mentioned recently
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Claudettes mask originally wasnt even the problem. I'd actually say it would be racist to exclude Claudettes face when Bubba simply wears any face.
The problem came that started about 1 year ago when DBD started rising in popularity again, it also started rising attention to more closeminded communities. If you compare the pride event from 2020 with the one from 2021 and just look at the amount of homophobic slurs, I'd say it had tripled.
Heck, I even had people disconnect because I had a pride flag hanging on the hook. I'm not even part of LGBT, but they assumed I was and just DC'd and then spammed my steam profile full with homophobic slurs.
It's the increase of popularity that created a growth in players specifically using the mask with hateful intent. Heck, I've even had someone tell me(I couldnt confirm it, but I would honestly not be surprised), that someone picked Adam, just to run into the killer and suicide on hook multiple games in a row because they thought that it was funny to see Adam die over and over again.
More people means bigger chance of racist players. You cant really detect them, so you'd have to take away their toys instead.
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Also; husks to replace DC players.
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I’ve heard it all now facecamping is a hate crime Jesus Christ.
The level of overreaction to camping has hit a new threshold.
Comparing a completely inconsequential tedious element in a video game to a hate crime is just beyond belief.
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Where did anyone say face-camping = a hate crime?
If you actually bothered to read, you would see that no one said that. The context in which it was brought up was that it is relative to the action which took place during the harassment. Which is that because of the way Leatherface's power currently works, there is nothing that survivor can do against it when face-camping. Thus they (the people harrassing) opt to use it to target certain groups.
Maybe learn to understand what is actually being said before you comment next time.
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I fully understand what was said.
Do you attribute tunneling to some targeted racially motivated action, how about flashlight clicking, BM’ing?
its completely assumptive.
If you want to discuss the mechanics of camping and its impact on the game that is different from “face camping is a tool used by people to harass others”
Half the mechanics in this game could be described as tools used to harass others.
The key part of the recent changes is the removal of what was basically blackface bubba. It rode a fine line.
Camping, in particular face camping, is still going to be around and unless someone puts it to you post game that they camped because of some targeted harassment. You have no idea what their motivation is.
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Again. I don't think you do, because you either have never played survivor enough to understand how you can harass people by face-camping them with Leatherface and rendering them unable to participate in the match, or you are just unaware.
The key part is that I am just bringing light to what was done to harass the player, because wearing the mask in and of itself wouldn't have revealed people's motives had they not stated why they did what they did which was target those people AND face-camp them in some instances.
The mere fact that this happened only further confirms what has already been talked on these forums thousands of times, that face-camping is too unbalanced and it only encourages players to use it for harassment purposes.
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You are making assumptions again. This time about me as a person and player.
Even if camped you are still playing the game, chases and gens aren't the only part of the game.
Face camping alone isn't harassment, its just a scenario that can play out in the game.
The argument that its a tool for use as harassment is weak at best because that argument can be made about many game elements. Just because people face camped others in some targeted scenario does not immediately mean all face camping is some kind of targeted harassment.
The problematic element of this in terms of harassment was the mask and that has been addressed.
It sounds like you are angrier at being facecamped than you are about actual harassment.
EDIT: I also realize you qualify this in your original post but your whole argument is kinda based on it at the same time its contradictory.
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Hmm... I wanna see if I can break this argument down into its most basic parts, making it as clinical as possible. Correct me if I get it wrong.
The combination of Bubba's Smartface mask and facecamping are used to target and harass minority players. It is not fun to be facecamped as it prevents a player from participating in the match.
Not all people who wear Smartface are acting in a racist manner; most are just wearing the cosmetic because they like it. Also, not all facecampers are doing it to be racist; most are just playing the game. Despite this, Bubba's Smartface mask and only Bubba's Smartface mask is being removed from DbD.
Bubba's Smartface mask has no impact on gameplay. Being facecamped is the part that feels like targeted harassment by preventing participation.
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Removing the masks won't stop racists from playing the game and targeting people, unfortunately. The blame goes to whoever at BHVR that was too naïve to realize having a black skin face on a white killer would be a bad idea. A better idea is having a black killer imo, because if im remembering all the killers correctly none of them are black .
EDIT: I guess thre are black killers just wasn't immediately obvious to me, cool good to know.
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"Being facecamped is the part that feels like targeted harassment by preventing participation"
This is kind of it, it seems the argument is, I'm mad about face camping rather than I'm mad about actual harassment.
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The Wraith and The Doctor are both definitely black. The Hag might also be black.
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Wraith I can see with some of his cosmetics, the Doctor hard for me to tell, is this in the lore cause I dont reed the lore much. I believe you it just wasnt immediately obvious to me.
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It's in their Tome videos.
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His argument's not wrong, though. It is the combination of Smartface Bubba and facecamping that has caused an uproar. Facecamping can be done without the Smartface mask and the effect on gameplay is the exact same as if the mask were still there.
Harassment isn't just appearance, it's actions. I doubt a Smartface Bubba standing around on a map doing nothing is seen as harassment the way a facecamping Bubba is.
This whole argument is unnecessary, though. The devs are actually working to remove facecamping from the game and have been working on it for a long time. It's not an easy fix. They even talked about it in one of their most recent dev updates. Removing the masks is easy and can be done right now. My issue with this whole thing is that nothing is being added to replace the masks and we're losing over half of Bubba's non-default masks. I don't like any of the remaining ones, and that sucks for people like me who like wearing the Meg and Dwight masks. If I'm losing those, I want new earnable cosmetics.
The Doctor: https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Herman_Carter
Under his nationality it says "African American."
I was right about The Hag, she is also African American: https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Lisa_Sherwood
In case you were curious, The Wraith is Nigerian: https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Philip_Ojomo
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Thank you for your insight, I'm glad there are black killers in the game, I figured I was probably wrong as this would of been a huge oversight. Much appreciated.
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I think the whole mask thing is just placating white people over Twitter.
I'm all for cracking down on discrimination. I see the changes in attitude when I play as Jeryl. I get to deal with the blatant transphobia, who usually tend to be Bubba players, go figure(Dbd has a blatant tunnel/face camp issue to begin with so I'm very careful about crying victim)
I dont think these changes are meaningful or accomplish anything. Now Claudettes will just die but with default head piece. Mission accomplished?
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Yes and no. Face camping can be done without wearing the smart face but that doesn't make it inherently harassment.
To say face camping is harassment and want changes on that basis is just ridiculous. We could say anything in this game that inhibits my sense of participation, and hence fun, could be construed as some sort of targeted harassment. You then have a recipe to ban anything you may find unfun simply because you personally feel harassed by it.
A lot of this game contains elements that might make people feel victimized, targeted or triggered. Its a game where you chase down and kill relatively helpless opponents ala slasher films. Survivors also have a number of mechanics that when working together can also inhibit a killers ability to play as they may want to, hence the term bully squad becoming common use.
Should we then ban anything and everything in game that could be used as a tool to inhibit another player's fun?
Smart face didn't have an impact on the game mechanically but it was a tool for some players to advertise their motivation to harass others.
Even without this element there were some red flags about the bubba faces, in particular smart face, that rode a very fine line and its no real surprise that the more ignorant and malicious among the community would try to use it in that manner. (Its a sad truth and it bums me out too that this ######### is still an issue in 2022).
The problem was smart face... not face camping and BHVR addressed it in the most straightforward way possible just remove the masks and compensate the gamers who'd unlock them with some shards. Its the same as censoring hate speech in the chat. Report abuse if you see it and hopefully if its identified as hate speech people will be appropriately banned.
If you are face camped my advice is hang there and buy as much time as possible for your team to escape. Think of it as your heroic sacrifice in the face of adversity. If the killer stares you in the face nodding at you then take it the same way as people who BM you at the gates, childish crap best ignored.
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I don't understand this weird attempt to tie in racisim/sexisim to a tool in game you don't like. You should just make a post saying you hate face camping not 'face camping is a tool to be racist and THATS a good reason to change it.' You can make this argument about -any- killer offensive action.
I can change my steam name to something racist
I can hard tunnel survivors with certain skin colors/gender
I can only chase survivors of certain skin colors/gender
I can slug out survivors of certain skin colors/gender
My point being the players who abuse the game to be racist/sexist will continue to abuse every possible thing to get their point across because at the end of the day they only care about getting reactions. Trying to nerf/remove something in the vein of 'it will combat harassment to x group' will never accomplish its goal because these types of players will just use the next best thing. What's your idea then? You can't M1 minority survivors multiple times in a row? You can't only slug minority survivors? At a certain point the solutions to harassment become more cumbersome and heavy to implement/maintain vs what it accomplishes.
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I didn't say it was inherently harassment. In fact, I said "not all facecampers are doing it to be racist; most are just playing the game."
In that post I said specifically that neither Bubba's Smartface nor facecamping are necessarily being used to harass players. The combination is used to harass. However, only one half of the equation is being removed, and players can still facecamp and harass without the mask. Players can also harass without facecamping by tunneling and slugging. I was not saying facecamping is evil.
I'm used to being facecamped and don't really care much anymore. A lot of times I find it funny. I'll stick it out or I'll suicide and move on, depending on what my team is doing. I was never trying to bring my own feelings on facecamping into the discussion and am actually trying to keep my feelings out of the discussion. What I'm trying to keep the focus on is how facecamping is perceived by those who felt targeted by Smartface Bubbas. Will it still be perceived as harassment without Smartface in the game? (That's just a question, something only time will tell. We'll find out the answer in the coming months.)
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"I can change my steam name to something racist"
That can be reported"
"I can hard tunnel survivors with certain skin colors/gender"
That can also be reported as harassment (albeit harder to prove).
"I can only chase survivors of certain skin colors/gender"
That can also be reported as harassment (albeit harder to prove).
I can slug out survivors of certain skin colors/gender
That can also be reported as harassment (albeit harder to prove).
Smartface isn't reportable as it's a cosmetic provided in-game. Even if it has a huge historical background to an offensive practice. People use that in conjunction with the harder to prove harassment in order to basically stick their middle-finger out at a person while playing the innocent angel "But da gaeyum let me do et" card.
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I don't care about smart face being removed. This is in response to the OP trying to claim that altering camping in the name of combating racisms
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10,000 Shards for the effort/money I spent on that character. Thanks BHVR. :)
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Thank you for actually keeping an open mind in the discussion.
What you are bringing up is exactly what I was trying to get at. Mainly because I actually watched the video where streamers expressed their experiences with the type of harassment they received. I didn’t have to bring in my own opinion on it because I already have in the past, I was just saying how this playstyle has been exposed as being something that is exclusively done to gain an unfair advantage AND harass.
So if the developers are saying they want to take harassment serious, this is a piece of context is relative to the conversation.
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Yes, Bubba has problematic facecamping from a game-design perspective.
Yes, it’s possible to perform an action in such a manner as to be harassing.
No, facecamping does not imply harassment.
Address facecamping because it’s ######### to play against. Stop drawing parallels to it being harassment. Because you can harass people with literally anything.
Post edited by Rizzo on0 -
If anything, I get more harassment from face camping than I harass others with my face camping. Facts.
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If you’re out of patience remove yourself from the conversation then. Instead of resorting to a childish way of calling people names.
You aren’t even reading what I am saying you are implying that I say every face camping scenario is harassment when that is not what I said.
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Are you willing to reiterate your point?
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The OP reiterates my point.
Face-camping is a badly designed mechanic, and Bubba makes it even more problematic due to the way his power works, right? Okay got that one out of the way.
After listening to several opinions and watching the video with the streamer players who have experienced racist harassment per on this video: (The people who seemingly brought it up to BHVR's attention)
Seeing as most if not ALL of those examples had one thing in common or a "common denominator". I decided to speak about it and bring it to discussion, to further discuss what action is being done to facilitate this type of behavior. Yes I know not every single person who face-camps is doing it with ill will intent, yes I know not everyone who wore that mask is doing it with ill will intent, but my point is that there is clearly something that player is doing besides wearing a mask to harass, because they are clever enough to understand that there is almost virtually nothing you can do against a Bubba idling at the hook.
I am not speaking about the other Bubbas who do it because they made terrible plays and feel the need to cheese their kills via a flawed design mechanic. I am speaking about the Bubbas in these specific scenarios. Because while the devs have already stated they are looking into face-camping, I think part of the problem is Bubba's power when face-camping.
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So, face camping is racist?
Because that's what I'm getting from you completely side-stepping the knowledge that correlation does not imply causation.
(Bringing up racism and harassment in the first place)
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It sounds like you are just using this situation to try and change the game for your own gain. Kind of cringe, bro.
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Face-camping alone isn't racist. How many times do I have to say it?
I never claimed otherwise, I've always said there was a correlation between them. If you had bothered to read, you would actually know this already.
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