Time for a return of old Ruin: Undying?
I just wanted to throw the question out there to start a discussion regarding old Ruin: Undying. With the controversy surrounding COH (Circle of Healing) at the moment regarding its level of power I just want to see if a return of the old Ruin: Undying would be a way to effectively balance the power of both boons and hexes.
Just interested in feedback regarding if it would be a good idea at this point in time.
Comments
-
Do you mean the prior versiins of both Ruin and of Undying?
0 -
I don't think adding more BS is the solution, they just need to nerf Circle of Healing
31 -
It wouldn't really matter because killer hexes do not overwrite boons currently. So you cannot use plaything/NOED/old undying to snuff the boon totems.
0 -
As someone who plays Killer, no on old ruin. Old ruin would be a nerf from new ruin. It only works on new players and season players can easily hit those skill checks.
1 -
absolutely not. not at all.
nerf circle of healing, don't bring back more bullshit to punish solos even further.
11 -
No. Old Undying was ridiculous
10 -
Nerf CoH. Remove the ability to overwrite Hex totems.
Seriously; Killers get a new Hex that literally relies on Cleansing, and then the devs basically remove Survivors need to ever freaking Cleanse. How baffling.
10 -
Not the prior version of Ruin but prior version of Undying.
0 -
Undying should never have been nerfed in the first place. The old Ruin was ok but new Ruin is better in many ways.
0 -
I wasn't around, but yeah, Undying made more sense as the old version. It got nerfed just because of Ruin which is kind of wack.
2 -
While I agree that things need to be toned down and would certainly hope for that route that at least if they aren't going to do anything, or anything at least anytime soon, then it would be interesting for both perks that mirror each other so well to be in the game at full power at the same time. Makes interesting data at least.
0 -
I know but it would definitely give a bit of a tug of war feel. For instance if they bless a hex that goes to another dull totem and then you snuff the blessed totem and then the hex gets broken. It will then go to another dull totem giving it a chance to be around longer and actually legitimize hexes overall to be somewhat comparable to boons and give instances of choice to either bless or break totems.
0 -
Not old Ruin but old Undying.
0 -
Devs never reverse decisions; to do so is an admission of defeat, something they will not allow
0 -
Just old Undying.
0 -
I found that odd as well that they created a perk like that soon after the boon mechanic. Maybe a rework of Hex Totems from the ground up should be in order?
0 -
Would it really punish solos that much since prior to boons survivors never really went after totems this much. I think with the new mechanic it actually incentivizes more totem searching then ever. While it may punish solos on some level I would at least like to see the data for what it would be with both the boon mechanic and old Undying at the same time and then come to a decision.
0 -
the entire reason they yeeted old undying was because it punished solos disproportionate to SWF and if theres something we really need to do it's make that 15% gap even wider.
theres a difference between going to one totem over and over that's highlighted with sound effects and an aura and overall is very flashy and finding potentially up to 5 totems in solo queue, effectively removing any chance you have of getting all gens done the second it isn't gone by two totem cleanses.
3 -
Fair point. I forget sometimes about the hubris that people have sometimes.
0 -
We could wish, but it won't happen.
I hate to join the meme, but it frequently looks like Killers get massive nerfs and slight buffs, while Survivors get massive buffs and slight nerfs. I mean, look how long Legion has been absolutely worthless to play as anything more than a meme.
Or, better example:
When Killers had an audio bug where Survivors could not hear the TR music; fixed in a day. Top priority.
Survivors get a bug where they make no noise in the Dying State, which makes it easier to hide? Been in the game for over a year.
And you can't tell me they can't just put a Killer & a Survivor in a match while checking the code, and smack the Survivor until the bug procs, then check the code and see why it failed to call 'DwightDyingSound . mp3' or whatever.
0 -
You do make a fair point and while I wish that both were currently at full power maybe it is a subject best revisited when they try to implement their new system for solos to be able to see what their teammates are doing.
0 -
No, do not ever bring back Old Undying.
0 -
Their system for boosting SoloQ should be
- Add voice communication. Because everyone knows this is what makes SWFs strong. A freaking up-to-the-second report on the Killer gives Survivors so much to react on.
- Balance around the new power-level of Survivors.
This 'We don't think voice comms does much. Have another perk or Killer power that relies on Survivors not being in voice comms' development process needs to stop.
Until they admit it; Killers will beat SoloQs, and SWFs will beat Killers. And the game will be a mess.
1 -
I actually think it's an interesting idea. COH needs balancing somehow. It's just as i say the devs won't allow it. They're short sightedness is destroying the game
0 -
Very true. That bug is still and honestly find it quite frustrating sometimes as well that it is as awful regarding sound as it is. We can dream though.
1 -
But why not. COH is technically on the same level imo.
2 -
I honestly don't think why they cannot at least add that or at least have a PTB about it in future to see. Is it really that hard to implement if other PVP and PVE games do it?
0 -
There's a few problems:
- BHVR rarely admits mistakes for a long time. Look at the old hook struggle mechanic, and how long it took for them to change it in the face of people saying 'This literally hurts'.
- A number of Survivors claiming voice comms is 'not that powerful'. To which I call BS. It's literally the only difference between SWF and SoloQ.
- Survivors claiming they 'don't want people screaming on mic'. But, you know; mute options exist?
- Survivors claiming it's impossible because of language differences. Ignoring TF2, and Overwatch, and CS:GO, and literally every single team-based game.
So it won't happen. It SHOULD, but it won't.
2 -
Then nerf CoH, don't try to balance bullshit with more bullshit.
0 -
And if you don't use a hex build?
Instead of messing with ruin, just make kicking gens meaningful. And/or so you cant 0.1 sec repair to stop the regression.
1 -
Old Undying? Yes, definitely. The issue was Ruin, and that could have been adjusted. Nerfing Undying was a huge nerf to all hex builds, even the bad ones.
Old Ruin? No. That just wouldn't work now, and it would make Ruin incredibly good against newbies and utterly useless against anyone experienced.
Yeah, there are other examples, like the old flashlight stuns, OoO and more. This is actually really common for devs, and is often called 'developer arrogance'.
Yeah, a lot of people have suggested forcing at least some sort of commitment to stop regression. For...years now.
Everyone and their dog agrees that COH needs a nerf, and if BHVR were going to nerf it they would be doing it in 5.5.
As they aren't, that needs to be the new balance metric.
2 -
They did with the new, more realistic survivor movement animations.
Much, much work from the animators and so on but since survivor didn't want to relearn muscle memory and so on, it was rerolled.
0 -
No?
0 -
Boon totems are ridiculous.
You know what this community is like. Every other game is going to be people calling each other names, 13 year-olds screaming racial slurs, and trolls playing Rickrolls and Johnny Rebel songs. It would make the endgame chat look like nothing, and there'd be no way of moderating any of it.
I do think it's a bit stupid that we aren't allowed to use the f-word on a forum for an M-rated video game with a strong language descriptor, but even I don't want to know what would happen if we allowed in-game voice chat.
1 -
Let's not.
1 -
Not more than current Boon perks.
1 -
While we´re at it. Dribbling as well, i guess.
0 -
No. CoH is busted but that doesn't mean you should bring back a busted perk. Plus I think it would be a nerf to Devour Hope which I wouldn't like.
1 -
So if you don't run Ruin and Undying you just get yeeted by COH? Just nerf COH instead and we're fine.
0 -
Yes, more than current Boon totems. Old Undying added an absurd RNG element to the strength of totems, sometimes requiring up to 5 cleanses to disable a single perk. It was the closest thing killers ever had to perks playing the game for them.
4 -
For real! This is just such a crazy play that you couldn't make it up.
0 -
Yeah, up to 5 cleanses really sounds terrible. Especially after the killer kicked the boon for the 10th time.
Oh and what do you mean with "closest thing killers ever had to perks playing the game for them"? Do you mean the combo Undying Ruin? Because as far as i remember, Ruin does nothing while you hug a gen. Killer has to do something to get survivors away from the gens. Or what do you mean?
0 -
If the survivors are still alive and escaping after lighting boons 5+ times in a single trial, I question whether the killer is at their keyboard or holding their controller 100% of the time in that game. That's not a CoH problem.
I mean that the combo of Ruin/Undying/Tinkerer was essentially autopilot. Killers imagine every survivor team has this optimal level of coordination, but the overwhelming majority of survivor lobbies have some solo queue component. One or two survivors are going to be totem hunting, one is going to be saving, and the killer is going to get a Tinkerer alert on the one gen in progress. Sure, a highly coordinated team of good players can deal with Undying barring bad RNG, but we can flip this exercise around too: a high level killer will almost never lose a game with old Undying/Ruin/Tinkerer. It's next to impossible to lose if you're good at killer with that build. It wasn't healthy for the game.
1 -
It takes 14 seconds to light a boon. 5+ times could be easily achieved without wasting any time, when several survivors bring boon perks.
So what does the killer when he gets tinkerer alerts from 2 or 3 gens at the same time? He can only run to 1 gen. Chances are high that said regressing gen will be completed by another survivor who sees that gen.
0 -
I wasn't around for old ruin undying. Can someone explain to me what was OP about it? Like a worse case scenario happening to survivors against old ruin undying.
0 -
Old Undying was disgusting and extremely broken on high mobility Killers, having to cleanse 4 totems WHILE the Killer reads you aura while you cleanse is absurd.
CoH needs tweaking but bringing back bad designed stuff is not the answer, what could be the answer to Blight+Old Undying+Ruin+Tinkerer+BBQ? first iteration DS?.
0 -
Old undying could prevent a hex being cleansed up to 4 times, unless you cleansed undying first. Killers also saw the aura of survivors on hex totems as well. One thing to note was it didn't transfer tokens as it does right now (ie didn't really work too well with devour, lullaby, etc). So I guess worst case was a high mobility killer with ruin, and ruin being cleansed at 5 totems (if at all).
0 -
I like everything I read about old Undying as long as its interaction with Ruin was adjusted to make it not as punitive to survivors. With the exception of Devour Hope at three stacks and Ruin, most survivors I face don't even bother to look for hexes. As tokens would disappear, old Undying's interaction with Devour Hope would already be restricted. Even with New Undying, I normally can't get 5 Devour stacks before it's cleansed so I don't see it making an insurmountable difference with old Undying.
Ruin, on the other hand, if I can stop it being cleansed makes it an almost guaranteed 3 or 4K. That would be too powerful with old Undying.
I'd be incredibly happy with new Undying though if it stopped my hex totems from being overwritten by boons. It would also make Pentimiento useful with more hexes other than Plaything.
0 -
Old ruin is a nerf to new ruin.
As a survivor, I'd gladly take old ruin to this passive regression bs.
Old undying, would only promote more boons
0 -
If only I had the confidence in BHVR tp actually do actually have the sense to do that. It seems lately that for every 1 thing they do right they do 2 things wrong. For instance, they saw the backlash that old Undying had with Tinkerer and nerfed it to not be as powerful but then decided to have an entire mechanic for survivors that was essentially the same thing. Strike 1 against.
Then after creating this new mechanic that they didn't seem to think would undermine Hex Totems in anyway they then came out with the Artist that had a Hex perk that required cleansing which is now unnecessary. Strike 2 against.
Then we come to this latest Developer Update that outside of a few things was lukewarm at best and given all of the controversy surrounding COH I find it odd that it wasn't mentioned at all from anything I have seen so far. It would at least be something to at least have them mention looking into it even if they don't plan to do anything at the moment but from all I have seen they haven't. Strike 3 against.
Honestly I believe that the Hex mechanic needs to be reworked from the ground up and perhaps either let Killers set their own totems or give them a passive Hex buff along with their perks that starts weak and gets stronger as the game is slipping away. But we will see what the future holds.
1
