Can we please change the definition of "true skill" with MMR?
Consider the outcome of two potential games for killer
Killer Game 1:
You camp the first person you see to death and stand there with LF until they die. Then right before the survivors finish the last generator you begin camping the next person to death. The game ends with 2 hooks and 2 kills.
Killer Game 2:
You play hard as nurse and get 9 hooks but only end up with 2 kills.
In the eyes of the developers these games have an identical outcome. This does not represent a measure of high tier play - unless you want people to play like this.
Suggestion : Change MMR for killers so that having more hooks defines trueskill. Compare chase time vs gen completion time as a measure of true skill. Compare the total number of hooks as the game progresses to when generators are completed.
Change hooks after all gens are completed to be of "lesser value".
In all cases : 0 hooks regardless of outcome is the lowest caliber play.
This will create the scenario where only the very best killers are being placed against high MMR survivors.
Survivors
Skill for survivor should be a combination of how well you can waste the killer's time when he chases you AND how well you can complete generators, save/heal other survivors while the killer is not chasing you.
But that is not how we judge skill. Someone who runs the killer for 4 generators and then gets camped to death by a leather face is "lower skill" than someone who was never chased (but would have gone down quickly if they were) and sat on gens the entire game.
Suggestion: Change surviving to a tiny "bonus" aspect of MMR instead of the entire determination of survivor MMR.
Change trueskill for survivor to be a measure of how long you can occupy the killer in a chase. Consider factors like what % of generators get completion while you are being chased. Consider factors like are other survivors healed or rescued. Create a system where chases that lead to no hit/down and an escape are always valuable (minimum chase time required 10-15 seconds). Create a system where runs of equal time that use zero pallets are more skillful than runs that used pallets.
Rework survivor score events so that someone being chased gets bonus points for people working on generators/healing or rescuing other survivors while they are being chased.
Create a system where hiding from the killer while they are near you is worth some level of trueskill. Just like chases you earn more trueskill points if generators/heals/rescues occur while the killer is in proximity to you and no one is in a chase. You also earn bonus points for things done while the killer is in close proximity to you and not chasing someone else.
Change survivor true skill to see how quickly they finish generators (without including perks/items). As an example a survivor who finishes a generator with 4 great skill checks (zero missed checks) is better than a survivor who finishes a generator with 0 great skill checks (1 missed check). In other words the game takes note if you can finish a skill in 75.2 seconds vs needing 84 seconds.
Reward survivors who finish a generator via perks or items with "less enhanced" value of true skill than great checks but still increased value over slower generator repair times
This will create a new definition of high tier play. The HIghest MMR survivors will be those that can quickly complete generators heals/rescues while not being chased AND waste lots of time while being chased.
Slightly lower MMR players will be those who can complete generators quickly but not run the killer very well.
Still lower MMR players will be those who cannot run well or complete generators quickly but can escape via cunning.
The lowest level of MMR would be playes who cannot complete any objectives well and usually die.
Comments
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Scenario 1 is only guaranteed a kill for someone like Bubba who can instant down survivors. Without that they can potentially force a hook trade, the first hooked person runs off and heals, the gens get complete, and they bum rush or trade the second or third hooked survivor. It’s possible to get literally zero kills if all you do is literally face camp with most killers.
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You can make it work with other killers as well. The Shape with infinite T3 is another example but that's not the point. You can do it with any killer if you have the hook in the middle of a close 3 gen setup.
Do you not see these as an improvement as a measure for skill for both killer and survivor?
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Consider this... Only skilled killers get kills. You want MMR for throwing games? Nah. High mmr survivors would eviscerate you. Just play what makes you feel comfortable and you will get fair opponents relative to who is in the matchmaking pool for that style. You want to 2 hook everyone, go for it. You can easily manage it on baby survivors. I believe in you.
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My post was about reforming the definition of what makes a killer good or bad. The example is to show how ridiculous the markers are for what the developers are saying is the marker of "high skill".
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The devs know basing mmr off kills and escapes is stupid but they are to lazy to change it. Just like they are to lazy to buff all the weak killers in the game.
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You can definitely 2 hook 90% of public match games too if you're a highly skilled killer. The issue with adding something like that to MMR is that the number of available killers for higher brackets would shrink even further. Making something too nuanced/accurate would be just as problematic as what we have now.
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Look at it this way.
A bubba 4k with only 4 hooks. Just camping and the survivors took the bait.
Does this need to get a decrease in mmr so they face even less experienced survivors or does their mmr need to increase so they start facing survivors that know how to deal with this.
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I've been in games where my teammate escapes with 7,000 BP and I die with more than 20,000, but they're the better player. It's actually insulting that the game measures skill like that. What an absolute joke.
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You're making an assumption here that is false. You assume the LF gets 4 kills and 4 hooks and therefore does not advance his MMR.
I said let's make a skill system where 4 hooks -> 4 kills is less skillful than 12 hooks -> 4 kills.
In this case we have to imagine Killer A is LF, and Killer B is someone else. Killer B will be getting higher tier survivors than Killer A. Leatherface will NOT be getting easier opponents for getting 4 kills from 4 hooks.
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Most survivors are upset that they keep seeing Nurse and Blight when they get to top tier MMR. This is just how the current game works. The people playing those killers want to win so they are not playing Ghostface.
What this would do is make all killers viable. Over time you would get so high with any particular killer and your MMR would plateau. Say for example you were a really good Billy. You won't climb as high as a Nurse or Blight but this is fine. You won't ever be facing the opponents that can only be beat by Nurse/Blight (unless of course they have not been put into their proper MMR bracket).
A low skill potential killer like Ghostface is only going to get so far and they will hit the limits of what is possible with that killer. They won't see the same groups that the Billy in the previous example sees. Overall they will see much lower tier play. This would make Ghostface viable. The killer is bad but the max mmr of opponents you will face is low so it "balances out" in the end.
Compare this to the current system. You play Ghostface and play a swat SWF and get stomped. So you go down in rank and play against some average players who are solo. You stomp them with a 4k so you go back up and fight against a really tough 3 man SWF with good items. You struggle really hard and get a 2k from 3 hooks. Is that really where you belong in MMR? No - but that is where the game places you because the mechanics have failed.
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But he's also not getting more difficult opponents either. The LF is already at the level where he can get 4k with 4 hooks. So the effect is the same. Killer A also should get higher tier survivors in that case.
I don't think hooks for mmr will ever work unless you start working around all the edge cases to the point of it just not being worth it.
I also don't understand why people so desperately want the hidden mmr number to represent skill. It's not that you can compare it with anyone. Not even yourself.
Mmr is doing an adequite job. The problem isn't really mmr, it just highlighted the problems that were already in the game
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The problem is that you take an arbitrary expression like "skill" and try to fill it with meaning.
This is a stage game. However you define "Skill" (first stage) will completely determine the result of the second stage: Creating a system that recognizes such "Skill". As such comparing your examples is pretty pointless. We have to talk about the definition of "Skill".
That is not to say that I do not agree with your expression of "Skill". Just that any further implications are pointless unless this gets clearly defined. And then we can face the problem about how that skill gets expressed...
Some problems arise here already:
As a survivor you can "wast" the time of a Killer without even being in a chase. I often wasted a huge amount of a Killers time by stealthing away with "Fixated". Most Killers do not think that I could make so much distance without leaving scratches.
The game is not able to register this.
As a Killer I juggle survivors (imagine a time before Cycle of Healing) as Wraith. I injure them, I run Thanatophobia and Sloppy Butcher and once they use their speed burst to get to a very safe tile I leave them. This is in itself a "smart" decision: I do not wast time by chasing a survivor to shack or a long-wall jungle gym. I only pick out "easy prey". This is a skill.
However as it is currently implicated the game gives me a point penalty for "losing" a chase.
Also an important question: What is the goal of this system?
Is it to find "fair" matches or is it to give people something to "climb". These are different goals and I think a lot of players mix them up...
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They tried to do this for 2 years, but after countless failed attempts they did exactly what they admitted doesn't work and is a bad system: they went with kills/deaths. The amount of times you hook people is far more relevant to your skill as a killer than kills. It might even reduce camping/tunneling if you did it correctly and even benefit survivors, too.
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He would most definitely be getting better opponents if he is getting 4 hooks and 4 kills. So the entire argument after that makes no sense.
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DBD has never had a good measure of skill to sort players. This is in part because they expect the game to be 2/2 for a balanced game. Looking at kills and escapes has never told the full picture of what happened in a match.
It matters when hooks happen before/after the gens are completed.
They do not count hook events. I had a conversation with their statistics person in ~2018. Do they track hooks? Nope.
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Gwinty: As a survivor you can "wast" the time of a Killer without even being in a chase. I often wasted a huge amount of a Killers time by stealthing away with "Fixated". Most Killers do not think that I could make so much distance without leaving scratches. The Game is not able to register this.
Which is why I am suggesting we change how the game can measure your skill as a survivor. If nobody is in a chase and the killer is in proximity to you then you are wasting the killers time without being in a chase. This is useful to your team and should be rewarded. I used to play DBD via stealth and no looping so I understand the value of wasting 30 seconds of the killers time before starting a 30 second chase.
Gwinty: As a Killer I juggle survivors (imagine a time before Cycle of Healing) as Wraith. I injure them, I run...
However as it is currently implicated the game gives me a point penalty for "losing" a chase.
I could mention that the hit and run playstyle is dead thanks to boons, strong healing perks and medkits but lets ignore that for a second. Once again the game is not really understanding what is happening nor rewarding you for doing something right. You are getting a quick damaging hit and then trying to repeat that process when a survivor is not ready instead of chasing on a very strong tile.
I am suggesting we redefine the game's understanding of skill so that players who play well advance to play better players.
Gwinty: Also an important question: What is the goal of this system?
The goal of this system is to make the MMR better suited to place good survivors against good killers. If survivors are judged based on how well they pressure generators and can loop the killer then it will be a very easy way to separate true skill.
Survivors that can loop well and pressure generators will be the top MMR. Survivors that can pressure generators quickly but not loop well will be in the middle MMR. Survivors that neither loop well nor pressure generators well are placed in low MMR. This would create a system so that if you play well as survivor you will play more games with people on your skill level. At the same time you will play with better skilled killers better able to handle that pressure. This would prevent you from being in games as a skilled survivor that can loop and pressure generators with survivors who cannot do these things. It is beyond frustrating when you are playing at a high skill level and the team has 3 players that are up to par and 1 who is playing like someone with under 100 hours of skill.
The system I am proposing would also over time remove the need to balance the "lesser 24 killers". Over time they would be sorted and you would see them at low skill level where they are viable. You would not see them at high skill levels where they are not viable. Every now and then you would see a Pig that climbed to a decent level of MMR but you would not see them at the top competing with Nurses and Blights. Even if you were amazing at Pig you would eventually hit a skill ceiling cap where the survivors are just too efficient because your powerset can only do so much.
I hope you can understand that as an idea this would be much better than the current system: I see you won 4 games in a row with 3 or more kills. How about you face a tournament team now and test your luck?
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That's all nice in theory but how will you do that in practise?
Make it so the LF with 4 hooks/4 kills advances, a 12 hooks/4 kills advances much more for it to be relevant but a 5 hook/1 kill goes back.
Also make sure that the 12 hook/4 kills person doesn't advance too much cause they could have had a lucky game and isn't actually prepared for the higher experienced survivors yet. It still needs to be gradual
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