Is it killer-sided or survivor-sided…
Before I get to the reasoning I intend to, that is sure to cause some players’ heads to blow up. Quick background on my DBD stats. Normally, this isn’t needed, but for this topic it helps.
Been playing since November 2016, I have 7200 hours. I play both roles, but killer more than survivor just to have faster que times for the time of day I play. I dont really have a killer “main”, I play them all. Obviously, I’m better with some than others. I don’t use crutch smallPP perks on either side (NOED, Adrenaline, DH, BT, DS, Unbreakable, Deliverance, etc.). Im not a fan of being outperked instead of outplayed, so I won’t be the hypocrite that does it to others.
Why did I rant about all that info, and why is it important? Here’s another stat, most players are survivors. Survivors outnumber killer players quite a bit. I don’t know how much, only the Devs do. Obviously, 4 survivor players per each killer player would be ideal.
Because I am so experienced with killers…ALL of them, when I’m playing against them, I know what is going to work and what is not going to work, under the assumption that my killer opponent knows what they’re doing also.
Bare in mind, I would wager a good 75% (not a quoted stat, just my best guess) of all players do NOT know how to play as/VS every killer competently. We’ve all watched streams of a killer chasing someone, and the survivor is throwing so hard that we’re just like “#########!?”. I don’t know my MMR, as no one does…but as survivor I probably escape 3 out of 4 games, so I’m willing to bet it’s pretty decent. That’s just solo que stats, SWF will vary depending on my team’s goal in the match, some are intentionally thrown to have fun.
By this math, and this just on AVERAGE, and ONLY my perspective…3 out of the 4 survivors in games don’t play killer often. Which makes these 3 people unaware how to effectively play VS whatever killer I am playing.
People rate skill differently, for me…it’s chase. If you can’t hold your own in a chase, I won’t consider you a good player. Notice how I said “chase” and not “loops”. There’s a reason for that…looping isn’t effective vs. every killer, many require you to be chased differently.
Because of my opponents’ lack of knowledge/experience, I still win (3-4K) the mass majority of my killer matches. I don’t run metas, I don’t have to focus on winning, I just let them make the mistakes and I capitalize on it.
Now, when I am playing survivors that know what they’re doing, it’s a much sweatier experience, but I can still get the job done.
Wrapping up my extremely long novel, I’ll leave you with this basic analytical summary: If I was my strongest killer facing 4 survivors that play just like me, my survivor team is going to win…every, single, time. Period. Regardless of killer strength, regardless of map, regardless of items, add-ons or perks ran.
This is my perspective, and hopefully it brings some clarity to others when I, or the many others say:
“The game is survivor-sided when all players in a match know what they’re doing”.
So it’s easy for me to see the “this game is killer sided” argument…because there are just way too many survivors that don’t know what they’re doing!
Now that you know my perspective, here’s the subtle tip that you should have taken away from today’s reading: if you want to improve as survivor, improve as killer. Yes, they go hand in hand.
Rant over, happy DBDing! <3
Comments
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The game is blatantly survivor sided; HOWEVER, Otz and company proved that realistically that doesn't matter when survivors on average are as bad as they are. They are overly altruistic, get triggered as easily as they think click and bags bother killers, and sometimes decide not to run the perks that make the above statement an objective truth.
That is why the conversation is so gray and people water it down to whoever is playing the most "sweaty" wins as that is usually the outcome in most instances realistically speaking. In a practical setting, it is anyone's game. If both sides come to bang, survivors are going to win. But they rarely ever do which is why I can understand some solo players feeling the exact opposite as... Let's be real, more killers are playing seriously and to win as that style is more accessible. A lot of the "tough" competition are just swf trying to have fun as opposed to a swf wanting to reach top mmr.
But that's just a theory.
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Game is BHVR-sided. All money is going to them.
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It's an unbalanced mess so if it's one side or another doesn't matter however in its current state of affairs it's survivor biased.
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The game is relatively even-sided in the absolute majority of levels of play. At the extreme upper end, it becomes survivor-sided, but almost no one ever plays with or against people of that level anyways so it doesn't even matter.
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You had me at
crutch smallPP perks.0 -
the game is sided to whatever best fits your agenda
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I love how you name one killer perk as "small pp" then just name survivor perks lol
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Well, like it or not…killer’s only have 1 second chance crutch perk, NOED. If you want me to name more, then ask for more killer 2nd chance perks to be added.
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I thought the game was survivor sided at the highest level till I seen the Hexy tournament (think that's what it was called) and the Otz challenge. Right now I actually believe the game is balanced at the highest level.
Here's the facts:
- Does both sides have something unbalanced though? Yes.
- Is survivor more relaxed than killer? Yes.
The only places people can nearly 100% agree the game is unbalanced is at low ranks and solo q. These are considered by most to be killer favoured areas.
The one thing I'd like to be changed, that I personally believe is badly balanced, is map sizes. Just stop making big maps and make them smaller please.
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What Otz really proved is that with thousands of hours in the game that level of skill trumps every other consideration.
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Wasn't there a tournament that showed that if both sides brought the most tryhard builds they could the game was somewhat balanced tho?
(Don't know the credibility on that just something I've seen thrown around before)
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Otz did some interesting experiments on this topic and his conclusions were pretty illuminating.
- Balance in this game is impossible, because it's innately unfair. If the killer brings the strongest perks and most powerful addons/offerings and the survivors don't, they get flattened - and vice versa. And this is completely blind and changes from match to match.
- MMR should be helping with this, but has problems. The MMR 'cap' feels too low and matches are still too volatile. Part of this is the system prioritizing fast queues over match quality, especially in lobby dodge situations (which is going to be fixed eventually). Throwing people with 8000 hours against people with sub 100 hours is ridiculous.
- At a very basic level, it's not really killer versus survivors. It's 'are you facing an SWF with stacked perks, or a bunch of solos with meme builds?'.
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The game is relatively even right now, I'd dare even say it's in the second most balanced state it's ever been
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Its more map-sided than anything. If the skill level of all players in the match is similar, maps decide a lot
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It's cheater sided
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Well, in the incoming update 3 killers that don't need to be nerfed are getting nerfed while Circle of Healing is getting a slap on the wrist. Says it all, really.
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And idk why he included BT on that list... like SORRY I wanna safely get my teammate out of danger, instead of bombing the hook and getting them killed again
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A Bubba theory!
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Not really much credibility because no one who brings it up goes into detail as to why it's balanced same with otz's challenge.
That's why to me I have to also account what the devs are doing and what is getting implemented.
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How to spot a "X-main" with a single question: "is the game survivor-sided or killer-sided"?
A pure killer man, who has never played survivor in his life, will reply "it's survivor-sided"
A pure survivor man, who has never played killer in his life, will reply "it's killer-sided"
A man of culture, who actually tried both roles, will reply: "it's SWF-sided, SWFs stomp killers, killers stomp solo survivors"
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I think if anything it proves that if 2 similarly skilled groups (in game knowledge and mechanics) go against each other with their best load outs and they play to win then (not accounting for terrible RNG) the out come would be neutral.
As for otz"s challenge. I would say it shows that yes for the most part a killer playing a certain playstyle will get a neutral outcome or better without perks. But it doesn't account for going against a team of equally skilled opponents or like minded playstyles (ie letting a person die for a 3 out).
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The killer vs survivor power debate is easy to conclude.
How many killers are viable @ a tournament level?
There’s your answer. Simples.
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Yes which is why I say whenever someone uses this as evidence of the game being balanced I can't agree with them is shows some basic factors but nothing outside of them also it shows none of this matters as long as this game uses rng all the time like it's a lootbox ridden dungeon crawler.
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Also remember this is if everything was equal which this game is clearly not especially thanks to the most recent qna and updates doing no favors of balancing blatant problems.
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Viability at tournament level does not equal used at tournament level. Technically all killers are viable at a tournament level it just so happens that some killers are stronger then others.
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Its sided to whatever side you are currently not playing
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Killer sided without a question.
It takes a massive amount of experience of all four playing perfectly to have a chance to win, if they win at all. That is how you know it is killer sided. Killers have perks that change the game completely in their favor.
It is so much easier to win as killer, because as I said the skill and experience of the other requirements are off the chart.
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Depends on where you live to say anything about time. Your 9pm could be 3pm somewhere else.
I don't think anyone can discredit Otzs challenge. Especially when a lot of high MMR killers did the challenge and had good results. We also can't ignore the tournament where everything was legal and the results said it was pretty balanced.
The problem is it isn't fun to play the way the game wants you to, to win. This though has nothing to do with balance.
I think if top tier swfs did a version of Otzs challenge and had good results, the community would've said "of course the game is survivor sided".
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Or if we do, we're 🥴 drunk!!! Lol
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I agree that it is survivor sided.
There are three primary issues that cause this to be in play - but I hope in the future they can be rectified:
1.) Time
It takes 80 seconds to finish a gen. Even less with perks and toolboxes, but a good survivor team will shave 0.8 seconds off with a great skill check. So that usually brings it down to 75 or so. TLDR, a match can easily and handily be won by a team of good survivors in about 180 seconds. But a team of disorganized survivors - or a gang set up against a high pressure killer that is being played well - they will have difficulty getting those same gens done in several minutes. Perks like Corrupt Intervention and Prove Thyself create a tug-of-war with Time as a precious resource, but the fact is that Time is on the survivor's side, not the killer's. Killers need to hurry up and apply pressure to STOP a survivor team's momentum, as they all start out on gens by proverbial default. If a killer AFKs for 30 seconds, they have lost a great deal of the potential in their match, while a survivor going AFK for 30 seconds is a lot less harmful to the team (It's not good, but it isn't a fatal mistake by default). You can tell who has the advantage in a match by who is racing against the clock. In the game, the survivors set the pace for how quickly the exit gates can open via generator progress, which the killers have to manage. Devoid of perks or items, though, the survivors have a veritable monopoly on the game's tempo at this point. If a killer does not assert themselves enough to interrupt and take control of the game's momentum, the survivors will win by default - as without perks, generators do not regress and coordinated efforts will allow a match to be completed in 3 minutes flat. When a survivor spawns in, they have the luxury of getting on a generator and rolling the dice on if they can complete it before they are chased, searching for a totem, perhaps opening a chest for an item (Which can be a toolbox), or engaging the killer to buy time for their teammates - of which they can avoid and take several seconds to stealth past without a huge detriment to the team's survival. As a killer, you have to hit the ground running and make decisive chases - one must split their attention to best harass multiple survivors away from objectives while chasing them into dead zones and forcing them to burn through their numerous tools before they can complete the gens and escape.
Time is on the survivor's side at the start of the match, and if the killer does not get a foothold - escaping becomes an ever increasing certainty.
2.) Health States
Health states are sacred. Every health state is time. Every health state is positioning. Every health state is the slim difference between taking a protection hit or having pressure to go for a risky save. Killers must manage health states - and their invisible counterparts. Borrowed Time - free health state, Dead Hard - Virtual health state if used correctly, NOED - ignore health states. Unbreakable, D-Strike, Circle Of healing, Deliverance, Mettle Of Man, Inner Strength, Second Wind, Power Struggle - these perks give health states. Devour Hope, Make Your Choice, Coulrophobia, Haunted Ground, Iron Maiden, Dragon's Grip, Starstruck - these perks deny survivors of health states. A health state can be anywhere between 5 to 45 seconds of time for either team, they signify a large part of maneuverability for survivors and are the basic currency of each match. While killers have powers and perks to aid in their ability to bypass health states and knock out survivors more reliably, the truth is that survivors now have a great many tools at their disposal to squeeze more health states out of matches - which creased great variance.
Health states are time. Here is an example.
Baby survivor with no perks goes up against an OK killer. Because of the circumstance, the killer hits them twice, hooks them, and then tunnels them off of hook. In a normal match, this exchange is 3 health states. 1- they are injured 2- they are downed and hooked 3- they are downed again and hooked. Even if the survivor is skilled enough to make the killer chase them for 15 seconds for each health state, that's only 45 seconds of chasing.
A pro survivor with Dead hard, D-Strike and a Borrowed Time Proc goes against the same killer and is likewise tunneled after being hooked. The killer must 'hit' them 7 times now. 1- they are injured 2- they use Dead Hard to avoid a hit and prolong the chase 3- They are downed and hooked 4- They trigger Borrowed Time 5- They use Dead Hard again to avoid a hit and extend the chase 6- They are downed again and Picked up, triggering D-Strike 7-They are downed again and hooked. If they make the killer chase them for 15 seconds each now, they turned 2 hooks for 45 seconds into 2 hooks for 105 seconds. If the killer hard focused this player, it would take over a minute and a half to put them down.
There are a lot of variables in these circumstances - how long can a better survivor hold out in a chase, if the killer can bait out dead hard, if the killer waits out Borrowed Time, if the survivor brought different perks, if the survivor misses his strike, if teammates take protection hits. etc.
The point is that there are various tools at the survivor's disposal that create a network of intertwining faculties that can give them back health states, grant them 'virtual' health states, or otherwise force killers to invest more for every health state taken. Survivors have to force the killer to pay for each health state in time. And they have a great many tools at their disposal to make this happen.
While skill is important, a great survivor with strong perks and items can make 2 health states last an entire match. While a good killer can burn through survivor health states rapidly. All in all, though, there are far more tools in Survivor hands to produce health states than there are tools for killers to deny them of these aspects, making Survivors have an edge in the game - which is exactly why meta perks are all around these perks for survivors (Dead Hard gives a virtual health state, Unbreakable, Borrowed Time, D-Strike, Circle Of Healing, etc) while killer perks mainly focus on time and generator regression, as meta perks allow a killer more time to eat through the bloated health states of survivors (Corrupt Intervention, Pop Goes The Weasel, Ruin, etc.)
3.) Spread
A Killer can only be in one place at one time - even the twins.
In order for the game to be matched, the killer must have a very, very tiny advantage over each survivor individually. Mechanically you can see this as their movement speed is faster in all circumstances, and they have the ability to break walls, pallets, and open lockers to route survivors from their perspective safety - punishing the brave or foolhardy with insta-down grabbing animations and unique abilities that allow them to exert pressure on survivors on an individual level. Survivors have tools of their own - but all in all, when a killer is toe to toe with a survivor, they are intended to have a slight advantage - which is why survivors must team up to combat them.
The issue with this is how you calculate this very small advantage, which becomes an incredibly great advantage against weaker survivors and a laughably negligible one while teamed against pro survivors.
All in all - so long a survivor knows what they are doing, they can force killers to patrol certain areas and spread out as the killer locks down one area over another.
If survivors bunch up or are a poor match for the killer, this isn't much of a factor - but if competent survivors ration their time and spread out, the killer will ALWAYS be forced to invest far too much time one one thing or another.
If two survivors harass a nearly completed gen while two others are at large, the killer is out of luck. They must dedicate to a chase, as time is against them. But both survivors that are puppy guarding the generator in question would take significant time advantage to knock them down a singular health state... by that time, the other will finish the generator. Another survivor is constantly trying to boon a nearby totem - while the final survivor is repairing a new gen far away. The killer can only do so much, and the game is the survivor's to win. In this circumstance, the killer will have to choose to shut down the boon, prevent the gen from being completed, dedicate to a chase, or try to attack the other survivor off guard.
The survivor's ability to force the killer into these choices is what grants them an edge. 4 is better than 1, sure, but when that 15% faster movement doesn't cut it, the game is the survivor's to lose.
Between the survivor's ability to push objectives, make killers pay for every health state, have numerous tools to grant themselves health states, and their ability to spread out - it makes it so that high level survivors will always have an advantage over killers.
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I don’t think all killers are viable at a tournament level else there would be more killers being played at said level. While it can be argue that people will always go for the strongest options available, and this is why other killers don’t see play, if other killers were truly able to compete there would be a greater level of variance, but there is not.
Viability at a tournament level is the true viability at optimal play. If the majority of killers can’t compete when there’s optimal play, the game must be survivor sided as survivors must be too strong for the majority of the roster.
Now ofc in solo queue and even with most SWF, gameplay is far from optimal, however the imbalance is still there and it still affects the game in a notable manner, it’s simply less amplified.
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I would still say a majority of the roster is viable. If playing one killer over another provides the possibility of 1 extra kill over the other wouldn't you pick them as well
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Pretty sure that's a big no. Legion, Plague, Clown, Deathslinger, Myers, just to name a few are not only non-viable, they would be utterly stomped. These are killers that just have no way to compete against what hardcore SWFs bring to the table.
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It's neither, or rather it's both. At the beginning killers are definitely riding high, survivors just starting out have no clue what each killer does, have useless perks because they picked whoever they thought looked neat, or was from that thing they liked, and don't know how to handle regular skill checks, let alone madness, hexes etc. Also they don't even know totems are a thing yet, Because the tutorial still doesn't mention them ever.
Mid game gets a bit iffy, plays go badly, but are thought and tried on both ends, madness/lullaby still catches a few, totems last for a bit.
Experienced games, survivors aren't even the least bit intimidated by anything, except maybe nurse or spirit, but even then, it's going to favor the survivors who know the mechanics that have been put in place to help them succeed. Totems? Ha, you wish a hex lasted longer than the time it took to get your first hook, though at least it still glows now, just this blue color...
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I think the game can be pretty killer sided if u play optimally as a killer. As the game stands, 4k's are the way to go and the best way to get em is to play in enjoyable way for you(unless u love 4k's no matter what) or the survivors. Even against a lot of swf's, you can still do very well. I think it also makes sense as it's only on you as a killer and your knowledge builds up over time as you get more experience. Getting 1-2 bad teammates can doom the game already if the killer can exploit that fact.
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I love how people keep referencing this tournament as a good example
Meanwhile we saw 5/30 killers all s or a tier killers using their best perks with the a tier killers struggling to squeeze out a 2k
Love to see it
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Shrug.
I got stomped by a bunch of solos yesterday. Scratched Mirror Myers into Mother's Dwelling.
I've also beaten SWFs hollow.
So much of this game is a blind card draw. If I bring the best perks and play sweaty into a bunch of solos running funky builds on DDS or Midwich, it's my game to lose.
If I play chill with a meme build into a bunch of people with stacked meta perks on Cowshed, I probably lost the game before it started.
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Not just make them smaller but also balance the placement of safe tiles vs unsafe tiles.....making maps smaller won't help if survivors have a jungle gym to a safe pallet to a semi Infinity loop to another pallet or loop. Maps need more "Dead Zones", places where they don't have a loop close by. Some maps I have seen decent balance like that but then the RNG of death places a pallet loop in the middle of the zone.
I have a used loops like this constantly to keep the Killer busy and have been caught in said loops as a Killer as well
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You mean in a tournament the players had to use the best killers and perks to get a 2k? Yes this should be expected when the balance is a 2k. Remember the survivors brought the best builds possible, with the best add-ons and only got 2 out.
Yes loop tile balance would be important. I wouldn't say they need more deadzones but better loop balancing definitely.
Survivors running loops into/near gens being worked on is one of the best qualities of a small map.
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That's what I meant by more Dead Zones. Some maps have little to no Dead Zones so they need added but balance is the key.
Also I don't count the fields on any of the farm maps as Dead Zones, because trying to keep track of a survivor is annoying lol. Scratch marks should be more visible in those areas.
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