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BHVR and their issues
I am getting so irritated with BHVR. First thing is first, Dowsey's videos recently. Dowsey lost his twitch shirts because he criticized the lead game developer Patrick. Honestly, I can completely understand that. After all its just a simple cosmetic that BHVR gives to people that they choose. However, removing them because he is speaking his mind about a video game he loves and wants to see do better is just petty as hell.
Other people can have their own opinions but personally I think EVERYTHING that Dowsey says in his videos is spot on. I can guarantee that 90% of the BHVR team thinks the same thing, that Patrick is wrong. Obviously he is one of the top people at BHVR so his decisions will not get questioned. The thing is though, he is wrong about MMR and nothing will ever change my mind about that. Patrick's definition of skill is escaping, which has nothing to do with skill.
I'm not trying to start anything, just voicing my opinion on a video game I've been playing for 4 years. Patrick. Is. Wrong. About almost everything he says about MMR and its actually mind boggling how he can't see his own mistakes. I'm not bashing on Patrick, I think a lot of his changes for DBD were good especially the last few months, but that doesn't change how wrong he is about MMR. I truly don't understand how he thinks the way he does about MMR. It's just wrong, false, incorrect. I really hope he can see that someday and take advice instead of ignoring what people have to say.
Once again, Patrick is wrong about MMR, please if you don't believe me. Get your team together and ask their honest opinions about what "skill" is. Any time I watch Patrick explaining his MMR system, I honestly just can't believe how wrong is, but he believes every word he says. The only thing I want from this post is Patrick to hopefully see it and fix it. Skill is not escaping every match, not in the slightest form.
Ps I better not get banned for speaking my mind on a video game I love and have thousands of hours in. I really just want dbd to get better because I love the game. The higher people making decisions don't listen to anyone. They see what they see and don't get anyone else's point of view even when they are so far from fact.
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Bruh, they do not ban you for speaking your mind. I have never been suspended even once. Just don't cross their line and you are Gucci. Dowsey was held to a higher standard because he is an influencer. Simple as that. You can criticize developers without making fun of them or misrepresenting them.
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^ this.
I used to like Dowsey, but to be honest, since MMR was introduced, he became another one of those "Blame the Devs"-Content Creators. And why exactly should they support someone like this with Twitch-Shirts?
And it is the guy who has a massive winstreak on Twins who suddenly cannot stomp Survivors way below his Skill Level anymore...
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that what Patrick said regarding skill and escaping is not that escaping is the sole arbiter of skill, but that escaping is a reliable indicator of skill. Which... even factoring in unfavouable scenarios like facecamping (which isn't super fair to do because the devs also don't like facecamping), that's still true? If you escape more often than you die, that probably means that you're more skilled than if you die more often than you escape.
I think what's tripping so many people up is that they expect the MMR system to swing heavily after one game, which this one (and any other MMR system you care to mention) looks far more at general trends. In general, how often do you escape? That's your goal, after all, so if you're not escaping there are two reasons why that might be: You were outclassed in terms of skill in the majority of your matches, or you're more interested in testing/practicing things that won't get you through the exit gates. In either case, lowering your MMR would be the right call.
Same for kills. If you're getting a lot of kills in your matches, that means one of two things: The survivors you're facing aren't that skilled, or you're using cheap and unfun tactics like facecamping. In either scenario, your MMR should go up, so you can go against survivors who can handle you.
This isn't rocket science? It's not that "if you don't escape you're not skilled", it's that escaping is what you're supposed to be leveraging your skill to achieve.
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The thing is the BHVR version of "crossing the line" is saying the truth, that their system doesn't work and whose fault it is that it doesn't work. Also, yes Dowsey is an influencer, he makes videos and what he thinks is wrong with DBD, then gets punished for speaking the truth. Like I said removing his twitch shirts is completely fine, up to BHVR to decide who gets them. But they really did it because he "targeted" Patrick, straight up he wouldn't have "targeted" him if Patrick just understood his game and how it should work.
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Doesn't matter if he is an influencer or not. What the dev did was an abuse of power and set a tend where other streamers won't be able to speak their minds about the game without fear of being punished in some way. Everyone who is an influencer now has to walk on eggshell so they do upset someone on the dev team. Meme happens to every dev team out there, dev is made fun of every day. Do you see other devs act the same way they did when ppl criticize them? No, because most dev realizes that they are public figures who open themselves to criticism and have thicker skin. What they did is a slippery slope and will get worst if they are not called out on their BS behavior.
Also, to Mandy or some other mod, if you see this you are just in the wrong trying to silence your community. You are only making yourselves and the company you work for look bad for not allowing this discussion to happen. We are not some mindless puppets who you can silence by using some BS excuse about how this is streamer drama. It's drama your company caused and should be called out for.
Edit: Also I wanted to say one more thing. If Patrick or any other dev doesn't want to hear criticism or want a harmless meme made of them then maybe they shouldn't be the ones answering questions in a public fourm. You open yourself to these things when you agree to get in front of the public to speak. That goes for anyone: streamers, politicians, and even developers. Dowesy wasn't even disrespectful! It's not like he called anyone a name or treated them less than human. He just spoke his mind on a public Q&A and made a silly meme of Patrick.
Post edited by BlueRose on5 -
I mean.. that's kind of the point. DBD has been on a downfall since MMR, and... well the only thing you can do is blame the devs. As harsh as it sounds it's their own fault their game is dying, and people who make videos like Dowsey voicing his opinion on MMR and his opinions about the devs train of thought, are shut down saying it's just bashing the devs. But the fact is he's right. I have 4K hours in the game and MMR has made me just want to uninstall. MMR is the worst thing to happen to dbd in its whole history and BHVR act as if it's fine, even though there is stats, graphs, and literally anything to prove that MMR sucks, BHVR just ignore it and say "if you escape you're good at the game"
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Well, here's an example where you're kinda wrong:
There is a fairly big chance that you'd cross a certain threshold as an altruistic survivor, where you rescue teammates and end up dying even though 3 people escape. In all logic, survivors won that match, so ALL survivors should gain MMR. Yet you dont, so you get faced with worse killers. The threshold is a region of killers that I would call current MMR hell, where if you're too good at looping and your teammates arent good enough at doing things like cleansing totems. So you end up getting downed because of NOED, or downed after 4 gens and the 5th gen popping while you're already on the hook, and NOED giving the killer effectively 1 free kill. Since you're a better player overall than your teammates, you're very likely to start your match running across the map, where your teammates walk, meaning there is a higher chance of you being found earlier, meaning there is a relatively high likelihood of you being chased all game and getting camped with NOED, again dropping.
You can see how this isnt good for MMR. You have 3 survivors escaping everytime, but the game assumes you lost. Back to the hockey analogy that Patrick has given us: This is like you getting fired from every team you joined, even if all the teams you joined 10-0, with you scoring 7 goals everytime.
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I believe team MMR was something that they mentioned they wanted to look at, because I do agree there- it doesn't stop the general application from being correct, but there are edge cases that they could look to improve. Some of those edge cases - like facecamping and team MMR - we already know are on their radar, at least.
Also, just for the record, I thought the hockey analogy was clumsy even if what he was getting at was sound, so I'm not about to defend it.
While the current implementation of MMR does have some flaws, it's still important to mention when someone is misrepresenting what was said, as OP was in this thread.
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I think the main problem with mmr, or at least, the way the devs refer to it during the q&a, is that it only revolves around a parameter that by itself doesn't necessary show any skill, escapes and kills.
Obviusly there is a certain skill factor behind how many times you can escape a trial and how many kills you can make in the limited time killers have. The problem comes when you compare mmr with the other parameters the game adds into the game, when te one blendette that didn't do anything gets more mmr than the one juicer survivor who was lef behind after the last gen pop or the one basement bubba who had 1 hooj and camped it for the kill vs any killee who manage to put every survivor in deathhook and didn't got any kill.
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I would imagine the reason that kills and escapes are the only thing that matter is due to BHVR and Patrick are unable to come up with a way to calibrate players skill. They went with the most simple solution. Kill rates being 2 per game is probably because most queues have a couple of decent survivors and the other 2 are people who just installed.
Other people on this thread have said that Dowsey crossed a line. If I am not mistaken, the meme's Dowsey posted and his video explicitly quoted Patrick. If you are on a public Q&A and someone "quotes" you why would you lose anything. These guys are clowns, the game is literal ######### and they advertised the Ring months ahead of time due to other games that are popping up in this space. It's no coincidence.
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Oh no, his hockey analogy is normally perfect for describing MMR. Because if you have both sides win games, there is an MMR bloat that can inflate MMR extremely. Like, right now, the MMR peak should be reached around 3000 MMR and that shouldnt really be reached untill around September this year. But there is also an MMR deflation, where both sides lose games. And this is currently the case.
I dont care for the hooks, people want hooks to be part of MMR, but hooks dont really matter. You might be more skillful in general, but you've lost the game. A killer who gets 2 kills at 1900 MMR will be better than someone who gets 8 hooks but 0 kills at 1800 MMR, simply because they knew when they needed to get a kill. There are 3 types of skill in this game: strategic skill(aka, being at the right place, at the right time, placing things at the right location and knowing where you're needed most), interactive skill(aka, chasing and mindgames during the chase) and decision making(aka, knowing when to ditch a chase, knowing when you need to kill/hook/slug someone, knowing when to work on gens).
The MMR for killers is quite well rounded for this, because decision making is easily the most important skill for killers. If you make horrible decisions, it doesnt matter how good you are at chasing or being where you need to be. Where with survivors, interactive skill is the most important skill. You can have teammates who make horrible decisions, as long as you have at least 1 player who is really good in chase, you can end up buying more time to compensate for those decisions(up to a certain point).
Killers gain and lose MMR based around their most important skill, but survivors dont.(yet) And that is a problem for MMR.
The thing is, how do you make a survivor MMR that includes Chase without creating an MMR bloat? Especially with killers like Nurse and Wraith who can barely have any chase at all? It's actually simpler than you might think: have survivors compete amongst themselves for chase. If you simply add the equation of (your chasetime/total chasetime)*total gained MMR and (total chasetime/your chasetime)*total lost MMR, you spread out the MMR among survivors based on chase, but the total gained MMR/lost MMR will be based on escaping. So if you looped the killer for 5 gens, but survivors still lose, you barely lose any MMR compared to your teammates, but if you looped the killer for 5 gens, die and 3 teammates escape, you still gain MMR.
The issue with a system like that, is that it cant really be applied when you leave the match, since the match continues after you've died. But you can also simply have the player gather MMR and process it every hour(so you could have +30 MMR from 1 match, -20 from match 2 and +10 from match 3 and once the clock strikes XX:00, you'd gain 20 MMR), or everytime you log out. Because as people have stated before: MMR doesnt swing matches insanely much, even if you apply MMR once a day at 11 AM EST, it would still not swing matches insanely much, but it would be quite accurate overtime.
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I’m sorry but even though other YouTubers like Scott said it was petty and what Dowsey said was harmless. I don’t think so, I understand MMR is not that good but pointing fingers and saying it’s the devs fault is completely wrong.
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What they perceive is skill and what has been shown as actual skill however is two things. Why would skill not factor in things like perks, maps, the general rng, addons, and items if they wanted to say x is skilled why is it that the game doesn't reflect it. For ######### sakes they said twins are beastly at high mmr and instead of thinking "ok that makes sense" I was thinking "who the ######### is unironically picking twins as their main"
Also right now there really isn't a neutral map it's mainly survivor sided (Ormond,badham,the game) or killer sided (maybe rpd...) so while kills and escapes can help with balance but with how the game plays it takes much much more than boiled down statistics.
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Do you have any idea how utterly, impossibly difficult it would be to build a system that factors those things into account? If you could name me a single game that has a comparable amount of pointless detail built into its MMR system, even if it's part of a ranked mode or whatever, I'd be extremely surprised.
That's impossible to do and it's mostly unnecessary. There are areas where you could, if needed, put more nuance into the MMR system, but I'm not convinced that's necessary at all. I have zero reason not to believe the devs when they say the problem is the matching part, not the MMR calculation itself.
But this is devolving into defending the MMR system, which I don't particularly want to do. It's just important to acknowledge that the dev's statements on it are being misrepresented in this thread.
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Counter Strike does. Fornite does. League of Legends does.
If BHVR want's to take this competitive route, then they should be compared to completive games who already have taken this route.
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So then what just keep using the same ######### then? We have seen over and over again that apparently the devs don't play their own game since who in their right mind would decided some of this without an ulterior motive for one.
And secondly it doesn't matter , mmr was the shits because it was implemented in a game that was broken already only to ruin it more thanks to over reliance on statistics so what now? Should people just finally say ######### it and leave, well guess what they have and the devs still act ignorant about it because instead of saying "well we had some issue since we accidently made it too one sided so we will make fixes to it" they just said "well it's different parts of the day and we can't answer that" along with showing that the nerfs they did do to balance the game I.E COH,DS did not fix the issue but was a piss poor excuse for damage control.
Also if they wanted to go off of anything that has a system for pvp check out any triple A shooter or fighting game or hell if you want something that was free check out ff2 a mod of tf2 that works just like this but isn't a borked mess like this has become.
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Yeah But trying to compare this to sports is like saying we go off of basic stats for hockey and soccer but never factor in if the athlete was doping and anyone got in a fight either on the field or in the crowd there's alot more going on that needs to be regulated but the deva seems like they can't be bothered to regulate any of that #########.
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I am genuinely, not ironically, not as a gotcha, curious what you mean- could you elaborate on the comparable detail that those systems use for their MMR? Specifically the MMR, that is- I know at least two of those games have a ranked ladder, so I'm not talking about what lets you climb that, I'm talking about the MMR for their quick play/unranked mode.
I might have tipped my hand regarding my second point there, but BHVR have by no means decided to take a competitive route- MMR is not the same as a ranked ladder.
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The thing people doesnt understand about MMR. It's working correctly and MMR itself is the main problem because it doesnt fit to the game so that hockey game explanation was on point. Because there are no such game calculates how you play in the game and give you mmr point like that. They are really simple. Win = + points, lose = - points. However. The game DBD itself is broken. For many and any sides. The game itself even is RNG based, so many of your games decided by the system itself.
Imagine you escape or took 4K in a match. And then you completely matched with the same people. And you played with the same quality and the way you played on the last match is the same. There are no guarantees for you even if the all circumstances are the same because this game is RNG based. That's what people doesn't understand. You guys wanted to have a "fair" matchmaking at the very first beginning. To calculate that, they have to use the MMR system. And now people are quitting the game.
The game DBD can never been balanced. The game's nature has to be changed for that. Then may MMR system can work nicely. MMR system is nothing but a mathematical system. And the way you play, way you loop, way you get the kills are not important for this system because they are like emotions to maths. They doesnt have any value and wont gonna change the final results that you died or couldnt get the kills so your MMR drops down, and you cant expect from a system to have feelings to calculate those things. They are not important. There were never been a system like that. There were never been a game like DBD too so thats why developers seems like "struggling" about those.
The only option for this game to be truely working like the way the community wants is removing the RNG, but people will even complain about this too. So just accept the game way it is until there are new games like the way you want.
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You mean go play any other pvp game since the don't have it where one side is sodomized and basically devolved into a whipping boy?
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I am saying why people keeps playing dbd is just DBD is a unique game. At least for now. And the 1v4 game style is not like 5v5 moba matches or any other pvp game you can find around. Especially DBD is heavily RNG based game so you only have 2 options. Cry about the game when its nature is based on to be "unbalanced" or just play something else. Because DBD can never be balanced as people wants it to be unless the game has a huge rework. No nerf nor buff will balance the game. There will be always problems for people who are unlucky about the RNG most of the time. Even everything is balanced and seems good about killer and perk sides, people will start to complain about bad designs and RNG. This is what i am saying. It is the nature of the game.
And tbh to balance killers and perks are also impossible because of RNGs. Even map sizes are completely and absurdly non similar. They need a core idea to balance those kind of things around shits, but it is impossible. Which scenario they will think? For example nerfing killers. Only a little buff or nerf can make them overpowerful depends on maps. Imagine like the worst RNG for survivors on Dead Dawg killer will dominate, meanwhile it can be really bad on The Game when its a pallet factory RNG. Thats what i am saying. Lets think about RNG side. Imagine a survivor almost everytime gets those broken maps and RNG so even a newbie can make killers losing their precious time so they escape and having a high MMR. Meanwhile a decent survivor gets bad RNG with bad teammates (i explained why he still can meet bad teammates even with MMR because it is not about being good its just about escaping or being dead) will have low MMR. For what? Because this game's mmr system cant be simple as escaping or sacrificed. MMR doesnt fit the games nature. There are many factors even luck before you escaped or not.
Basically you can just milk MMR by hiding from the killer and waiting for your teammates to die and escape from hatch. Will carry your MMR up to high places. Does that make you a good player? No. Even before MMR we were always saying your grade doesnt show if you are good player or not its just displays how many times you played the game on this month. So MMR or SBMM still doesnt show how "skilled" you are because the system doesnt care if you are good looper or enough alturistic. Grade system first was out for this purpose but it is not quite working the way it should. Because of other killers skills. Imagine you loop Wraith but when he is invisible, it doesnt give you points. There are many things needs to be changed from the game, if you make people happy about those kind of things, it is quite impossible without making big changes of the core game. If you do those kind of changes, game will be more different what we are playing now so
And if you just suggest something like "Balance the RNG" it is also impossible. Why do we have RNGs then if we gonna know whats gonna happen? The game will become boring if everytime we gonna have the same loops on every map. There some fixed ones but the others are randomly generating. Which sometimes are really broken to abuse. If you say "we always have jungle gyms, TnL walls, there will be nothing change" then you are probably are not a good player. Imagine like shack window leads to TnL and it leads to long wall jungle gym's window... You will understand what i mean. And when they remove RNG, everytime you play survivor and Killer those looping chains will feel same and everyone will become like a robots when you play enough times on that map. And trust me you will miss those broken loops even if you are a killer main. Because it will feel like you are doing the samethings on each map.
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False. Its their game, every player hates the MMR system, they continue to keep it how it is. How is it not the devs fault? and why should we not get upset with them about it, calling them out for what they know doesn't work for a game like DBD.
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Dowsey said in the tweet that he didn't even care about the Twitch shirts. If he doesn't care why do you?
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I never said i did if you would read the post. The point of posting this was to show that BHVR don't take thing seriously and/or can't take criticism. Instead, they take away your cosmetics to try and stop you from talking bad about the game.
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He also said in his video today that this isn't about the twitch shirts. You right he doesn't care about them but what he does cares about is the precedent that behavior has set about criticism from content creators. By going after him and taking something away from him just because he criticize Patrick's hockey analogy and answer to the whole mmr situation, they basically sent a message to all content creators saying "If you say any criticism that we don't like we will punish you in some way." So no, no one cares his shirts being taken from him, it's the reasoning behind why they was taken in first place that people care about. A game developer should not punish content creators or anyone for offering criticism in any form. Especially criticism on what a dev said in a public fourm like the Q&A stream. Also he wasn't disrespectful towards Patrick at all in his tweets or video.
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