DS is still not an anti tunnel perk.
The time DS gets it's greatest value is when the killer is not tunneling, but going for the only survivor left in the end game. As an example: gate is open, survivors unhook a guy. They each take hits, or they don't. If they take hits everyone gets out. If they don't take hits, the guy is downed, and can freely crawl out as the last survivor. If they have DS, the killer is stabbed for picking up the only remaining survivor in the trial.
Another example of where DS is not an anti tunnel perk, but is actually a forced 60 second game extension is something I can actually showcase.
If I had left her on the ground to find hatch I would have not had this issue. Therefore DS is acting as an unnecessary game extension and it should deactivate if the survivor is the last in the trial.
Comments
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Just a protip:
If you're worried about the last guy kobying off, let the hooked person die first (or die while you are picking the last guy up) and then because there's only one person left, it'll by pass the first hook stage and kill them instantly.
Even then, though unlucky with the hatch spawn, you did tunnel her.
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The perk is fair. It got rightfully nerfed last year.
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I don't understand why if DS is helpful outside of being tunneld it must be nerfed? Players seem to suggest that DS should be solely anti-tunnel... but why? I think it's in a good spot with only a few QOL tweaks that could be made to it.
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It's fine imo. I get DS'd a lot because ppl that just get unhooked run through a hag trap 10 sec after the unhook and get slapped. If it's only 2 people left and one is hooked, I'll let the hooked person die first and wait the DS out/find hatch.
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If you look at how DS was originally working, you could say they pulled a 180 on that perk, from literally attacking the killer and denying a regular hook, to making it only intended to be used as a defense against tunneling with a seemingly unintentional byproduct of being still powerful when used offensively.
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We've got to pick and choose our battles. DS is not even a contender for top 10 issues right now.
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oh, its the "DS already got nerfed" argument. It literally doesn't matter. One nerf doesn't rule out another nerf. It doesn't matter that it used to be more powerful, it's only the current state of the perk that matters for future changes.
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Eh.
If it wasn't for the possibility of aggressive locker use, I'd be fine with DS.
It can be a very annoying perk at times, but I understand it's need.
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It’s literally not even a problematic perk anymore.
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Honestly, I hated the old DS but the new one is fine. It punishes hardcore tunneling as it should and even allows for some interesting interactions where survivors fake certain actions just to bait me into eating the DS. I have zero problems with the perk as it is because even when I groan while eating a DS I know that this survivor has done nothing to progress the game.
Say what you want, I think they made DS a pretty good perk that should stay as it is.
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I watched your video. Luck gods wanted her escape. 4% kobe? And then hatch spawned next to hook?
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seems like an average trapper game to me
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Of course not. Best anti tunnel perk is Devour Hope by a lot
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Well, I mean, it is still anti tunnel. It is just socially acceptable to tunnel during end game. I guess? At least the reasonable survivors would agree. Those other ones, we all know.
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lol you are just really unlucky, perk is fair as intended.
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I think last year (pre nerf), the perk was too strong. Post nerf, DS is a joke imo. The amount of time it provides until you're finally tunneled out of the match isn't worth the perk slot imo.
Oh, did i mention that your're completely useless for a whopping 60 seconds? That's about 1/5 to 1/4 of a match. WoW :D
Also many killers be like: "Hey [Insert your favourite Smart AI here], start a 60s timer.".
This trick works especially well with Bubba or the Trickster :)
I rather get tunneled (if the killer can get me) out of the match and go for the next match, because i don't want to play that kind of match anyway.
Also BT isn't a viable anti tunneling perk too, because i think many people should be able to count to 12. Bad luck if another Survivor pre dropped every pallet nearby :D
Well, BT is stil much better than DS, so you're pretty much screwed if you don't take it.
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DS is in a good spot right now. It helps prevent tunnels because Killer's are mostly afraid of it, but in reality, it isn't as bad as it's made out to be. The nerf, which was pretty necessary, removed a lot of the invulnerability aspect of it, and made it pretty fair overall.
It's really in a more niche spot now after the various tweaks to it. It'll give you some immunity right after a hook, but really, even if you land it how much time does it give you? Killers can just go after the unhooker, you can Make Your Choice y'know. It's really only 100% useful in the end game when it can mean the difference between a death and an escape. I see way too many people DS a Killer and get knocked down almost immediately. The distance it affords you is negligible except at extremely high MMR where 1/2 seconds count.
I honestly would rather have a team with DS instead of a team with DH or BT (if I could make a choice). DS really feels quite well balanced, shockingly enough.
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You literary won, what more do you need from this match?
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Oh, unlucky. Devs, nerf DS even more.
They didn't got the 4k.
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DS is absolutely fine. It’s not giving as much value anymore as it was supposed to give and as an anti tunnel perk it absolutely serves it purpose. If you become greedy, then this is not considered as an argument for a nerf of a perk.
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Make it non-functional once the last gen is finished and I'd be fine with it. I'd even support buffing it from there.
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There were several ways where you would have been able to avoid this situation.
But I agree, it is not an Anti-Tunnel-Perk since it does nothing against tunneling at all.
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I hope you are joking, cause if so, that rly is a bad joke.
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honestly, DS doesn’t need a timer at all. it got nerfed where if you do an action then it’ll cancel so just remove the timer because it’s not fair that a killer can continue to tunnel you and avoid your DS by slugging you for a minute or less
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Nope. DS should not be usable during the last leg of the game IMO, but I think buffing it as compensation if they remove that is fine.
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I think different here. Quite so often I've noticed tunnelling and camping at the end game as well. Killers should not be rewarded by one of the less possibilities to help survivors to screw them even more over.
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I have to agree. DS isnt anti-tunneling at all. And yes, the only value is in endgame scenarios. So Killers have perks for endgame use only, but survivors arent allowed? Killer entitlement and double standards again.
And to those situation:
- you just failed your objective at all. several survs alive in edgame = your fault, unhook gets through without hook trade = your fault, players bodyblocking or using the one perk that didnt do anything the entire game before = thats how its played.
- you didnt wait with the hook til second to last surv was dead on hook = your fault, you didnt wait until hatch was spawned to close it while surv was slugged = your fault. and a totally rng based situation with spawning the hatch right next to the survivor LOL
So to be hoonest, you just did several mistakes and still complain about a perk that doesnt even do whats its proclaimed to do? Sigh.
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Really? It doesn't stun a tunneling killer and buy the user time to get to a loop and waste more of the killers time? It doesn't buy the user time during endgame to run out an open gate? It doesn't give the team a chance to work together to distract the killer and help the tunneled person break LOS and sneak away? How much more powerful does it need to be to make you happy? Should it stun the killer for ten seconds while fully healing you and teleporting you away to the opposite side of the map?
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Survivors should not have such a massive safety net at the end of the game that can effectively guarantee an escape. I would rather they have better anti-camping/tunneling safeguards in the earlier parts of the game.
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DS is actually in a good spot right now. If a killer really wants to tunnel one player out early they might have to deal with three health states on an injured survivor (if they get greedy and active BT).
Disabling it during EGC is the only point in question because during EGC tunneling and camping don’t exist, the hooked survivor is the only remaining objective for the killer. And it punishes killers that didn’t tunnel the whole game.
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You're right. It's not.
We know this because a killer who gets stunned by DS can continue to chase that same person.
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tunneling is tunneling no matter what.
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So it is better to tunnel from the beginning of the match to get rid of the DS's, maybe eat a DS and whoever is not running DS is just unlucky?
And if I already ate a survivor's DS there is nothing holding me back to tunnel them again because I know they have no protection and I can make the match a 3v1.
I mean, of course it is more beneficial for the killer to tunnel from the start because three hook states on one survivor are better than three hook states on three survivors. This is not the question.
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It's ok to not 4k.
I feel like this should be the expression everyone chants at salty killer main support groups.
"It's ok to not 4k! It's ok to not 4k!"
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All i’m saying is if a survivor hasn’t had a chance to use DS, than they rightfully deserve it at the endgame.
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It was never an anti tunnel perk, the community made it up. People use it to counter tunneling though.
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Ok ok, so killers are not tunneling, they are giving survivors a chance to use their perk :D Now I understand, survivors actually want to get tunneled.
Good to know, I will adjust my playstyle accordingly!
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Oh I see, you're a new 2021 killer. DS has been nerfed 3 times. You'll learn in time.
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Its a bad anti-tunnel perk and only extends a chase before being tunneled out anyway.
I remember when they showed the stats after the last nerf it showed literally the same escape rates in games with survivors running DS and the number of escapes were the same as pre-nerf (where you could do a gen etc without it deactivating). Loads of people jumped on the fact that therefore its working as intended as an anti tunnel perk and not 60s of immunity.
Actually..... if anything if you used your brain that literally shows that even pre-nerf DS had no effect on the escape rate even when you were supposedly 'immune'. I never really got the argument tbh as you can just hold M1 to lunge and down them on a gen instead of grabbing.....
Either way, the perk is fine as it is and it was fine as before imo, it doesnt really bother me too much, if someone wants to run it then theyre giving up a perk slot which could have something much more valuable in it.
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That was an epic escape
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I think DS could be buffed and nerfed at same time. Remove the deactivation conditions, or at least allow unhook and heal actions, but make it so DS can't be used if you are catch by a grab, so you can't just easily go into lockers to force DS. Add 30s to the timer if you go down while DS active, except if EGC has started. When EGC starts (or if already started), DS timer loses 40s.
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It's not tunneling if it's the last survivor. Tunneling means you have tunnel vision and ignore all other survivors to chase one.
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The nerf didn't go far enough.
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You tell 'em.
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It is. Sometimes you have to tunnel and can't because DS. In endgame it's an absolutely free escape. You can hook someone else entirely and still get hit by it because you were "tunneling".
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How is it not a problematic perk? It's still a staple survivor meta perk, ran alongside BT and Dead Hard.
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because DS actually punishes killers for tunneling now.
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It did before the nerf as well, but also much more. You don't have to be tunneling to get hit by it, and that's the problem.
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Not all survivor staple meta perks are problematic, so that's a poor argument.
DS is not a problematic perk because using it offensively requires giving something up from the survivor- notably, objective time. It's a perk that has counterplay and isn't a free 60 seconds of invincibility the way it was before, which is good because anti-tunnel is kinda necessary to cover for the fact that there's no baseline mechanic to stop a killer from slapping you back down the second you're unhooked- yet, anyway.
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I don't subscribe to this. You have options (which also have their respective counterplay), like testing DS early, slugging, picking a different target in those multiple hook-dive scenarios. This list goes on.
To say that DS in it's current form is an issue that warrants as much discussion as it gets is silly. DEFINITELY not top 10. Survivors getting out with DS during the collapse because they were all of the following:
- Are actually equipping DS
- Haven't used DS earlier
- Recently unhooked
- Shielded with borrow time
- Shielded with protection hits
- Too close to an open exit gate to be slugged but still manage to go down despite the above
is the definition of an edgecase
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