Every time we try to make killer viable, attacks and nerfs ensue
I don't think people fully realize the struggle that's going on in the killer playerbase. We've basically been trying to push all killers to viability, or as close as we can get, in any way we can. And when we say viable, we don't mean beating disorganized solos, we mean beating efficient SWFs. Some killers literally don't have the tools to beat those teams no matter how good you play, simple fact. And we've tried to remedy this in many ways, but we've been blocked at every attempt as the months and years roll by.
We try to use the viable killers, the ones with the strong base strength, who may not even need add-ons to be strong. Examples of this are Hillbilly, and probably Blight soon. Those killers get nerfed because their base is "too strong."
We try to use unviable killers with their strongest add-ons so that they are, or come close to, viable because their base is weak. Examples of this are Clown and Pinhead. Those killers get nerfed because "their OP add-ons make them into a different killer basically".
We try to use perks to buy us time just to play, or to cut down on time to beat the race against time killers have to play. Examples of this are Pop, Ruin, probably Dead Man's Switch soon, or STBFL, Fearmonger, NOED. These perks get nerfed because they're "boring" and "way too strong."
We try to use a change in playstyle and strategy to generate more momentum and kills. Examples of this are slugging, camping, 2-hooking, 1-hooking, focusing on 1-2 people only. These strategies are probably getting nerfed because they're "uninteractive, unfair, and toxic."
So my question is, when all is said and done, what are we actually supposed to be playing like? It seems like we're pushed to either:
Play dirty, boring, sweaty, and make people hate us for it.
Or
Play nice, fair, and get bullied if we don't cease to care about the game that we're playing.
Any way we play, we're not only chastised by others in the community, but we'll not be playing that way for long without expecting a nerf. Simply playing a certain way has people questioning things like your morals and character. And that translates to balance as well, because those same people will plant ideas in the devs' heads like, "This thing is unfair, so remove it. I don't like this, and if you don't fix it I'll auto-DC every time." As a result of this, we've seen killer nerfs that I could never have imagined in my wildest dreams. You don't have to agree with all my examples being unjust nerfs, but to name a few (or rather, many): Hillbilly, Pop, Freddy, dream pallets, Demogorgon, Pyramid Head, Marvin's Blood, Mikhail's Eye, Twins, Undying, Discordance, Deathslinger, Pinhead, Wraith, Spirit, Pinky Finger, Engineer's Fang, Larry's Remains, Flask Of Bleach, Thanataphobia, All-Seeing Blood, Shadow Dance Blood.
And there's many more where those came from, based on the popularity of a variety of killer nerf requests. Bloodlust is probably going, as well as Blight, Nurse, Twins, Artist, Hag, Pig, NOED. It's beyond parody. How can one side deserve to get nerfed so much? Why is killer viability treated like a taboo?
Comments
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I think the problem is the disparity gap.
At low to mid MMR killers get 4ks ALL THE TIME.
Then at at top MMR killers get rekt with 0ks ALL THE TIME.
But according to the statistics, this is fine because it "averages" out, which is garbage. It should not be a total stompfest at both ends.
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If you want to beat efficient SWF, you will just destroy solos.
I completely agree that killers need to be more viable against SWF, but as someone who plays mostly solo, I don't want to have my games to get even worse just so killers have an easier time against SWF.
You can play however you like. Want to tunnel? Go ahead. Want to camp? Go ahead. But I feel like a lot of people who use these "strats" then come on here and say how survivor meta is OP, even complaining about DS and BT. These 2 perks are only "OP" when you tunnel and camp, otherwise it's like they're not even in play.
Unjust nerfs you mention:
No one asked for a Billy or POP nerf. The Freddy nerf was also, again, overkill. He only needed his slowdown addons changed so he couldn't stack them, everything else was fine.
Undying nerf was justified, so was Spirits and Pinky Finger. I have no comment on the other ones.
As for popular nerf requests: I have not seen anyone asking for a Pig nerf, besides her being able to be afk and still get kills. I main both Pig and Freddy when I play killer, and don't think a killer should get kills by being afk.
Blight and Nurse need their addons looked at, same with Hag, but that's about it.
I don't think you understand what the word Taboo means. 90% of these forums is talking about Killer viability.
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Can how show stats that prove that low MMR everyone gets 4ks and high MMR no one gets any kills?
Idk which MMR I'm at, but I do have thousands of hours so I'd like to believe I am not low, specially when I play crossplay off where everyone is way sweatier, and the nurses and blights there seem to be doing just fine.
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I am not sure citing the two strongest killers in the entire game that are well accepted to be broken by both sides is all that compelling an argument.
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So you can cite below average killers but someone mentioning the strongest ones doesn't count? How does that work exactly?
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Because there are 27 killers and you reached for the two best ones. That is what is called "outlier data" and does not represent data of the sample as a whole.
This is like saying a disease with a 99% fatality rate is not that deadly because 1% of them live.
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Because I consider someone who plays lets say Trapper on a complete different game than someone who plays Nurse, the same way I consider people who play Solo playing a different game than people who play SWF, but the thread was about killers in general, which again, like even you said, it's not reasonable because there's a really big power difference between below average killers and top ones.
I'm all for buffing below average killers, but saying killer in general is awful and only gets nerfed and I cant get kills it's just not realistic.
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The problem is and always has been swf and how they have the ability to completely make the killer a non threat if they want to. It is undeniable that swf gives you an advantage. How big that advantage is depends on how serious the swf is playing but even a simple "I'm going for the safe, don't worry" or "killer is Ghostface and he's heading towards shack" is huge.
And before anyone says "Uh, yOu'rE jUst jeAlouS BeCauSe YoU doN't haVe fRieNds" that's not the point. I don't care about the fact that people want to play with friends, but I do care about how this is not balanced at all in this game.
Swf is the problem. BHVR can't balance killers around solos because then even the most casual swf would stomp them into the ground, but if they balance around swfs, solos will have it even worse. Frankly, I don't know a satisfying solution to this problem, but I do know that something needs to be done. The disparity between swf and solo is not healthy for the game and makes it impossible to correctly balance killers.
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As long as coms are a possibility, then there will never be any true balance to DBD, unfortunately. Even if the game is reverted back to the original comless format, the 3rd party com capability will threaten the integrity.
The only way to truly balance the game is to eliminate solo q and make DBD Killer vs 4 man SWF, no bots. Adjust survivor items, as well as perks and add-ons for both sides, and that’s that.
All survivor players will have to friend-up on a team with coms. Whatever that does to lobby times is whatever it does to lobby times, but each game will always be as fair as possible, or at least more balanced than what we’ve experienced since the implementation of SWF.
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Most killers loose against high mmr solos anyway, they dont need to even be a swf.
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Just the fact that Corrupt Inter + Dead Man's Switch + Pain of Resonance combo became META on most killers show how broken the game is.
Equipping those 3 perks bring the gen speed to what they should be at base speed. In fact, all those perks should be base kit and still they are not enough to win against good SWFs on a regular basis (unless if you camp/tunnel of course).
DbD'stte of the game is in the worst state it has ever been, mainly because map design hasn't improved (even on new maps, most of them are beautiful but layout is garbage OP for surv) and because of the SBMM.
Survivor mains (most of the playerbase are survivor mains, let's be honest) do not even know the killers' struggle.
The only viable killers are Artist/Nurse/Oni and Blight and only if you completely master them.
Moreover, Blight and Oni needs the use of exploits to be able to compete, they are totally garbage without them.
Every other killers are way too weak at a high level of play. It would be okay if the SBMM was working but unfortunately, once you have reach above average MMR, the MM matches you with high MMR survivors to lower their queue times.
That is why most killers have left, all the remaining ones are camper/tunnelers or Nurse/Blight/Artist main, mostly.
Developers refuse to admit it but they have hardly failed and they are unable (or literally do not care) to balance the game.
It would be easy :
- smaller maps (8k to 9k m2 max)
- less pallets
- 1 LT max per map
- 1 pallet/window jungle gym max per map
- if there is a building, 1 window max
- Corrupt/RoP/DmS becomes a built in trials mechanics and are no longer perks
- DH nerf
Devs have said they have removed all the infinite but it is a big LIE. Many RNG spawn create infinites between 2 windows.
With all those changes, they can add a hook mechanic as the PH's cages to avoid the camp and the tunnel.
But no they keep releasing perks to bandaid the gen speed. To the point the killers can just use those perks and they cannot equip perks actually helping them in chase or map control. It is BULLSHIT.
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Can you show stats that prove what you just said? Actual official stats, not the someone on the forums saying "i escape all my solo Q matches, source: trust me bro".
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Don’t other games have in game voice communication? If you just add that then you would be choosing to ignore free info if you turn it off and we can finally balance for SWF.
your welcome.
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sheesh u have nearly 6k posts and all you seem to post about is how bad killer is
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If all of human kind spoke one language sure, but some region servers have people from multiple countries on it. It's better that they use a ping system, which I thought is what they were going to do anyway.
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It will be very unlikely much will change any time soon as the majority of the player base are survivors and we all know BHVR panders to them. That being said, the current rate they are losing players cannot continue and will hurt their bottom line.
We have all seen high profile members of the community who are both respected and have a track record of wisdom (Otz being an example) who have given popular advice that has been pretty much entirely ignored. So I don't expect much to change until things become critical
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Language barrier.
That's important here where it isn't in other games because the lack of available information is actually causing problems, so the solution must make sure everyone has that information, not just people who are lucky enough to load into a lobby where everyone speaks the same language AND feels willing to talk AND won't get flamed for their voice being feminine AND isn't polluting the voice comm with their music tastes or the sound of chewing...
BHVR's suggestion for the action-icon thing is a genuinely good one, and it can't come soon enough.
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Sounds like having the OPTION to communicate and ABILITY to communicate is not the fault of BHVR. You add it in, tell everyone to STFU and turn it off if you didn’t like what you hear and balance the game around SWF. EZ
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...Again, the thing that's causing problems is a lack of consistent, standarised information. Adding in voice comms doesn't solve that problem, for the reasons that I laid out.
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Your reasoning is amazing. Almost as amazing as the flawless plan to under-power Killers so they don’t ruin the fun of Solo Players who get bullied by SWF.
I disagree with you and your reasoning, using my own logic and reasoning. If the reason we can’t have balance is because of a lack of communication. Add the option, balance the game. Simple~
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Right, but if the problem we have is a lack of communication, adding in an option that a huge portion of players cannot use to communicate doesn't fix that problem.
BHVR's suggestion would fix the problem more effectively, because it doesn't require sharing a language OR your teammates actually sharing what they're doing actively for you to have that information. If they implemented that action-icon concept with a few other changes like seeing your teammate's loadout in-game, that'd do dramatically more to shrink the gap between SoloQ and SWF. Some disparity will always exist, but that'd get it much closer to equal than voice comms a huge swath of people would get no benefit from.
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I know lobby dodging is the reason it will never happen but this is why it would be great to know if a survivor lobby was solo players or SWF. Personally I honestly wouldn’t lobby dodge (unless I was on a bad streak or something) but I would go into games with totally different mindsets and I would at least know that I may need to play a little differently against a SWF and I do think killers would sweat way less against a team of solos.
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Yeah totally not believable that alot of killers struggle at high mmr just simply due to them not having the ability to down quickly and easily. Theres a reason why blight and nurse are so common, unless you're really going to pretend all the killers are viable...
Probably a casual who goes down at all the safe/god pallets.
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How many hours do you have, to be calling me a "casual"?
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Would be a perfect addition to the game but honestly, knowing how slow BHVR is, after this icons addition, it will be hell for the killers and this for 6 months minimum as every trials will feel like facing a SWF.
If they do this before balancing the game around the SWF play, the game will literally die in 1 month top as it will be unplayable for killer at all MMR level.
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Remember they nerfed twins because being able to chain slug with victor was "too strong" when it had very easy counterplay in an attempt to nerf camp twins. Then gets addon nerfs because "they were a monster at high mmr" (which I extremely doubt cause at that point it had been months after CoH was released) and very underwhelming buffs like baby teeth which the problem was how the blindness was affected, not the duration.
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Oh look now only hours matter? Been playing since the console release if you must know.
But a quick skim of your discussions and comments I see you think DH is fine, wake up can be meta, all killers are viable etc.
Funny how quickly you get offended though considering you just always call me a liar and void my opinions. But if you truly think all those basic attack killers have a chance on alot of the maps or even in alot of tiles against highly skilled survivors you clearly arent versing the most experienced players, even more so when DH is free distance and mistake correcting perk.
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When I said wake up can be meta I was joking, because I main Quentin as a survivor. I'm sorry that it was not understandable for you.
And I never said all killers are viable, if you read my first posts on here, you'd see I even made a distinction between killers like trapper and nurse . But cherry picking is better for your "solo q is fine" agenda.
When you say you escape 70% of your solo q matches without meta perks, yes, I will call you a liar, specially when you refuse to provide proof.
No one at 5k+ hours is a casual. Someone disagreeing with you doesnt make them a casual.
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I never said I didnt use meta, I said I always used 2 perks and the others was swapped in and out. And I explained youd never be happy with anything I gave you as proof as it doesnt suit you.
And solo is fine when you're high mmr unless you get miss placed or have people rage quit, none of which will change by add perks etc. Base kit for solos.
And yes you can be casual with many thousands of hours, I have a friend who plays this game all the time and has thousands of hours and he still struggles to loop, mindgame or play at a higher level. Hours doesnt mean skill.
And your first reply was asking for stats to where most killers struggle at the highest level as if it's not obvious.
You have your opinion and I have mine.
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You mentioned using 2 perks that aren't meta.
And saying you don't provide proof because no one would be happy with it, it's just a lazy excuse. You yourself said you didn't have recordings of your matches, we also asked you for you to stream your game so we can learn how to get that 70%+ escape as solo players.
And no, solo Q is not fine. For all the reasons that have been mentioned on these forums for years now.
If I still struggled to loop at 5k+ hours, I wouldnt be playing. I'd waste my time on something I'm actually good at. Hours can mean skill yes, that's why people would rather have someone with thousands of hours on their team instead of the 15 hours random dwight/meg.
My first post wasnt that, but I'll quote the one you missed:
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So just because someone isnt up to your expectation they shouldn't play? How about let people play what they want? If he has fun even if hes not amazing with thousands of hours does it matter? No.
And your first reply to me. But I'm done replying, my point still stands that most killers even against solos struggle at the highest level, either you agree or you don't.
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Where did I say you shouldn't play? I was talking about myself, not your friend, because I value my own time.
Everyone is free to play, but if you're gonna say that you escape 70%+ of your solo Q matches, when that is not the general opinion, I think you should show proof of it.
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That isnt the topic at hand. I also explained why there is a bunch of issues with that and I cba to repeat myself.
Topic was not all killers are viable at the highest level, and most of the roster will struggle verse solos that are at the highest level. Especially when certain maps, perks and tile setups are added.
Agree or disagree I dont really care, we have very different opinions on most matters and the fact you think DH is fine just makes me care about your opinion less especially when talking about weaker killers.
Maybe after the DH distance change they will do better but I cant say till that happens.
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The topic at hand was that a lot of things on the killer side get nerfed, some that should be nerfed, and others that were overkill, like I also mentioned on my first post here.
They could even remove dead hard, and some killers would still struggle against SWF. One perk is not the problem. The problem is a lot of killers being underwhelming because if they get buffed to compete with SWF they just destroy most solos.
But since you think solos are at the same advantage as SWF, ofc none of this will make sense to you.
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In "comp" tournaments even with banned perks killers like nurse struggle.
And bad survivors cry that she's OP.
Against a good group of survivors with comms she's nothing.
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I never once said solo and swf are on the same level, now you're making stuff up. I just said solo isnt bad because of the 0 communication, its issues are elsewhere (dcs as an example).
And DH hurts all basic attack killers alot especially if there are multiple per trial (usually 3+ if you're unlucky like me) but this is a pointless discussion as you believe DH is fine and make stuff up that I have never said.
I'm done replying though, I dont really want to be going in circles especially when you're making stuff up that I have never said. Alot of killers need buffs yes, but DH, alot of maps and even tile setups stops alot of killers being good at the higher level. Swf just makes that worse, doesn't mean weaker killers dont struggle verse the highest level solos.
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They're tolerated at best. I see many killer suggestions but none are implemented, and few go by without being criticized.
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Right you are. Killers need to be on top of their game every waking moment, but survivors can simply be decent and get a 4-man out.
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Agreed on all fronts.
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Because we can ask the survivors. "4-man?" and they'd answer "Naw, all solos." On Playstation you can even check if they're playing together in a party, and often times I do see 2-3 man SWF. The 4-mans, or what blatantly seem like them, are usually on PC against me, so I can't know 100%, but 99% anytime I suspect they're a SWF, they are and they win easy.
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What else should I be talking about then? What do you want me to talk about? How easy it feels playing SWF or how bad it is playing solo? Showing off an unviable build I found? We can't just ignore the issues. We have to keep bringing them up until we're noticed.
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The noobs won't know the difference anyway. They'll call killer OP no matter how the game's balanced, because they don't understand their objective. At the level that matters, where people actually play good, yes we should be balancing around that.
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Ask survivors? No. But at least stream and show videos of consecutive matches of that person playing solo survivor, without cherry picked matches. It's not hard to stream.
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Can you explain how do you agree that Dead Man's Switch + Pain of Resonance should be basekit?
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What he's trying to say is that those perks could be basekit and it still wouldn't be enough. I don't think they should be, but that perk combo is overrated af.
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How could it not be enough when you stack those and then be able to stack 4 more slowdowns? How long should a gen by default be in your opinion then?
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"Just take the 2 pallets on Shelter Woods and put them on a map the size of Coal Tower while also making 3 amazing slowdowns basekit"
100% kill rate isn't balanced, as much as you'd like it to be judging by your ideas LOL.
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Ideally, a gen gets done in no faster than a minute, on average. The gens should not all be done sooner than 5 minutes into the match under any circumstances.
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As would you. NetherRealm Studios does not attract loads of people consistently, especially the competitive crowd, to their fighting games by balancing around people who don't know what frames, combos, or blocking is. The survivors that are being balanced around right now don't understand counterplay, looping, efficiency, and least of all their objective. If you want them to be able to beat killers who actually play well, just so the game is "fair" and doesn't "exclude people", be my guest. We're headed that way already.
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Rin Yamaoka's nerf is not justified! Apparently she had 1 problem but the community and BHVR we're too blind to see what addressing that issue would do and now, she's only seen as often as moonbows and there's a 60% chance her player isn't having fun if you see her!
No killer deserves to be gutted to where nobody plays them. It takes away from the variety pool. As a solo survivor I'm currently sitting at IRI III and the past 3 days I've mostly been dealing with Nurse and Blight and honestly it gets boring. I liked it better when it was Nurse, Spirit, Freddy (I can't recall if Freddy was still viable or not at the time of..,) and Blight.
I don't mean to us vs them, but I feel that things that survivors say are problematic can ultimately boil down to skill issue, while killers use the things that makes them viable to feel like a threat. Maybe I'm too understanding of killers, but I invite you to try and get me to see from your perspective!
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