Why is it OK when there are tons straight characters in DBD but when there is one gay it's an issue
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Thing is, the only characters that can arguably be straight, were Wraith and Nurse. Outside that, the only thing related to sexuality was David having an ex-girlfriend(I mean, maybe the newer lore has more direct confirmation, I havent been keeping up to date since last November).
None of the characters are confirmed to be straight. Sexuality has previously been left ambiguous on purpose. Raising the bells about confirming someone to be gay when all sexuality has been super obscure in the first place is just a weird thing to do. It feels like it's done just to recieve that pat on the back when previous statements have been following the "sexuality unknown, you're free to imagine characters as you feel they would".
Personally, I did see David as straight or bi due to the mention of the ex-gf, I have no issues with him being gay, plenty of people who truly discover their sexuality after they have tried the norm. In my mind, I wouldnt be surprised if Dwight is gay or trans and being too shy to come out. There are characters I personally see as straight, Felix is one of them, but someone else I have spoken too sees Felix as gay, either way, I wouldnt really care. There has been community consensus on the sexuality of characters.
Now, what I think would have been more groundbreaking instead, is revealing in the lore that David is gay, without making a twitter post to it first. To me, it's a much more impactful statement if a company slides in that lore as if it's expected that one of the characters is LGBT instead of a big PR stunt.
It's not the addition of diverse representation, it's the way they dealt about it. Personally, I have seen BHVR as a very unique company when dealing with LGBT matters, they added a Pride flag casually, as it simply was expected. They didnt really make a huge announcement about it compared to other charms. They didnt really change their logo with a pride flag(there has been some in pride-related posts, but their main logo remained the same, except DBD Mobile), BUT they did make the fog that was in the background represent the pride flag instead. That's much more unique than practically all other companies simply slapping a filter on top of their logo and call it a day. I am just disappointed in the fact that they went the way they did. I would have loved to see someone reading the lore realizing that David is gay, share it with the community and blow up that way. That's a dedicated fanbase discovering something that doesnt really matter for gameplay reasons, but matters to them personally, being added as if it was the norm rather than something special.
But I guess my disgruntledness about the announcement means I am anti-lgbt instead.
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Gay player here. I think it's hilarious that people didn't know David was gay already. I feel like his lore was oozing subtext. He has a lot of single friends and he sleeps over at their houses. The married one has a spouse that doesn't want him coming over anymore. Daddy issues. I would have been shocked if David weren't gay.
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Meh. My only problems as a gay player are 1) that they made such a big deal over it (because they are straight liberals who want to show how enlightened they are), and 2) people who call it LGBTQ etc. representation. David's gay. He doesn't represented lesbians, transgender folks, etc. Otherwise, I am fine with it.
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Tldr ?
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None. Just wanted to make sure.
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Representation in media matters and is needed for normalization
I guess this is the part that kind of bothers me about the way this is handled. Normally when a tome is announced, there's some hint about what's going to be in it and that's that. This tome is being met with a big splash page about how proud they are of adding a gay character, how they worked with GaymerX to get this done, talking about their community...
It's not normal. It's not how they normally do lore reveals. So it doesn't work for normalisation because it is specifically lifted out as something exceptional.
David fits the 'stereotype' perfectly fine. There's a lot of macho muscle guys in the gay community who like going around shirtless, so David does work for that.
Post edited by Rizzo on3 -
Who are these straight characters? Can you please tell me where it is stated in their lore they are straight?
Off the top of my head less then maybe 10 out of a full roster of close to 50 I think are even mentioned to have a partner. I cannot think of anyone else (besides David KIng) too have their sexuality directly mentioned. If somebody can tell me which character and show me what lore that would be great. However there is not many. Instead of adding it into the law they felt the need to make a big public tweet about it to make sure everyone knows. Its forced, awkward, and in unnatural.
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Really? That's quite literally saying that only straight women like hot shirtless men. Not to mention it also feeds the stereotype that gay men can't be muscular or masculine.
And that is very wrong. In my entire DBD history (and it's been pretty long, since May 2016) I met hundreds of gay men and barely any straight women. This game has a big LGBT community, and a hot guy cosmetic is definitely not done just for the sake of women.
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I saw on twitter and people are making it an issue that David is gay. I actually quite like the lore of DBD - the journal entries, the entity, realms, and the characters. A lot of people on twitter were like "What's the point? How does this contribute to the gameplay?" It doesn't do anything gameplay wise except give the characters their own backgrounds and their own lores. Duh.
I honestly don't even see the problem in making a character gay, people are more pressed because they're homosexual. But when characters are straight, they're nonchalant because it's perceived as normal. That's where it's an issue. People perceive heterosexuality as normal so they dgaf and when it's the other way around, people will freak out and make it a big deal when it ain't.
Like, good for David King. He's gay. So what people? Move on, his name is David f-king King for a reason.
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I dont understand why BHVR felt the need to bring sexual orientation into DBD. I didnt think of any character as Straight or LGBTQ, cause it simply doesnt matter. It couldve happily stayed this way.
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Okay, but that doesn't change the fact those cosmetics weren't made because he is gay. They were made because of his character before they even decided he'd be gay.
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Because until David was revealed to be gay, the game was filled with straight relationships. Nurse+Wraith, Nurse+Husband, Frank+Julie, Felix+Wife, David+GF, Dwight+Female crush.
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If they think thats an issue they should think of a new character that actually makes sense to be LGBTQ. Announcing a random character to be gay all of a sudden is just forced inclusion and doesnt feel genuine.
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No, they shouldn't. It's not forced. Read the tome when you unlock it, so you can see that it was well done.
Post edited by Rizzo on1 -
It may not be homophobic but it’s just stupid to think David being gay doesn’t feel right. The lore and the character are very fitting.
especislly Felix and Ace don’t fit being gay as Felix has a canon wife that’s pregnant and who he loves dearly and Ace is described to be a womanizer in some of his cosmetics. Writing then as gay would actually be retconning and would feel forced and random. In case of David it fits super well with all his lore and actually some aspects now make more sense than before.
Post edited by Rizzo on0 -
Read the lore, it’s far from forced or not genuine, it fits very well and actually makes the previous lore make more sense. Couldn’t have done it better lore-wise.
the announcement I get, that one can be said to feel forced. But only because this argument can be used for literally any way of announcing a character as gay. That’s the nice thing about this ‚ it feels forced‘ argument - in most cases there is no counterargument (also no real pro argument but well…) - but in David’s case it’s far from forced.
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straight relationships are actually mentioned way more often than people give it credit for:
Nurse and her husband
Frank and Julie in their tome lore (which was on the edge of being disgusting and definitely being shoved down our throats)
David having had a girlfriend (turns out he is not straight, but that was still a heterosexual relationship in the lore)
Felix and his pregnant wife
Oni is the direct ancestor of Spirit thus implied to have had a wife
Dwight having a crush on a female coworker (though admittedly this one is pretty low on the list)
Ace referred to as womanizer no some cosmetics
Wraith and Nurse having (romantically) implied cosmetics/texts
other characters in lore:
multiple parents explicitly stated as father and mother (Jake, David, Spirit, Trapper (not sure about his mother mentioned), Hillbilly, Meg (pretty sure her father is mentioned), for others I guess it’s mostly one parent mentioned and thus not explicitly heterosexual)
Pretty sure other relationships in tome/background stories (shout out to the one gay relationship in one of Haddies story’s i think - which didn’t get any further announcement by BHVR)
keep in mind many of these were added while BHVR stated they want to leave sexuality completely out of the game - while actually including heterosexuality and excluding only anything LGBTQ+ related.
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I see this announcement more as a follow up to their announcement to include characters that are LGBTQ+ from the Tweet almost two years ago.
it’s obvious they spent much time on this representation to make it fitting and not a bad stereotype and this announcement is just celebrating their work with GaymerX and the fact they are proud of how it worked out.
and it’s also a response to those (like me) who criticized them for making this announcement and then not delivering.
also, while it does feel blown up it’s literally just a tweet among hundreds. People are focusing way to much on this announcement.
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Right: so including even just a mild implication of of a relationship, including Wraith/ nurse which purely cosmetic, and Oni which does not even mention a partner. You listed 10 examples. One of which is Nurse who you used twice and the second is David, who is now homosexual. Which is exactly what I said. Out of the 10 you listed only one had his sexuality publicly celebrated (David). The developers wanted David to be gay, and they wanted to make sure everybody knows it. Which is why I said forced and awkward.
What makes it so awkward is that as you yourself stated it was already implied that he was straight. They then changed it. Now I understand that there are plenty of people who have dated one gender, and later felt more comfortable dating another, his lore makes sense. However it is hard to get an understanding of characters if you imply one thing and then change it years down the line.
You said it yourself Behaviour wanted to keep sexuality out of DBD and I fully support this. Which is why I am not interested in the lore but rather the tweet that Behaviour sent out to draw attention to this. Everything about this situation is forced and unsortable.
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Were you speaking out when they forced to not include anything LGBTQ+ related while including heterosexuality though? Or is this argument only being used when it’s about supporting LGBTQ+?
and having had a heterosexual relationship doesn’t imply someone is heterosexual. As you said, actually MANY homosexual people have had heterosexual relationships in their past. This is actually making the story more believable and relatable.
Don’t focus too much on one tweet, or are you analyzing every one of their tweets like this? You are the one concentrating on this topic while BHVR has tweeted many other things since then, eg a concept artwork of the twins because they also have a tome story in this rift.
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Yes... if a tweet was made celebrating a non LBTQ+ characters sexuality I would also call it weird and awkward?
In a game based around one person one person killing another it is unneeded.
Yes the tweet does matter, otherwise they could have just put it in the lore and we wouldn't even be having this discussion. It was a marketing decision to draw attention to how much they care about representation. Representation is good, which is why I take no issue with men women of all backgrounds ect. However when they use people's identities for a publicity stunt, I take issue with that.
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You are completely ignoring the fact that BHVR explicitly excluded LGBTQ+ topics from DbD and them now adding representation is therefor something that’s worth to point out.
and nothing in the lore is ‚needed‘ but that’s also an argument only ever used against LGBTQ+ inclusion and nothing else.
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LGBTQ was not banned from forms. Discussions on sexual topics were. Which included LBTQ yes. but also all sexual topics. It also didn't help that LBTQ is a social movement and they likely did not want to get involved. Now said social movement is far more accepted, they have now flipped on their stance and changed an existing character so they can say they were on this side from the start. As you said they originally did not want to discuss this topic in a game that had nothing to do with it, which is fine but have now flipped on this stance for publicity. Thus I said weird and forced.
Also you say that nobody has taken issue with any previous relationship but that is not actually quite true. When the wraith x nurse cosmetics were first introduced there were many discussions like this one, with people opposing the idea of sexualising killers in this game. This is not something new with David. The reason why some people took issue the wraith x nurse and David is because they drew attention too it on social media.
They should have added the lore and left it.
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Nothing against this decision, just feel bad for David mains that have to deal with this decision after 6y when it could ve been done on a different new survivor in a near future.
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They didn’t change a character.
also, I am speaking about in-game inclusion where they have been excluding anything LGBTQ+ related with the statement they want to leave out anything sexual BUT they literally have had multiple heterosexual relationships mentioned and continually added regardless. They have revised their stance and apologized for this mistake. They didn’t do it intentionally either and I do believe them on this.
people just like to use this ‚forced‘ argument thinking it doesn’t have any counterarguments. But in fact it’s not even an argument to begin with. No it doesn’t feel forced, you just want to have an excuse to be against inclusion.
i wasn’t around when WraithxNurse was revealed, but well. That’s one example and it’s related to two in-game characters/killers which is something a little different than backstory of a character before being taken by the Entity.
i can guarantee you all these threads would have popped up either way. If there wasn’t an announcement many people claiming they just don’t like how they announced it would now make arguments against it because the devs tried to make it as silent as possible and they wouldn’t even stand behind this and it’s not genuine. Not saying all of them would of course, but many just try to grasp at any argument against inclusion that won’t directly show their actual reason.
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David mains don’t have to deal with anything. They have not been attacked or anything. The characters lore wasn’t even rewritten, it’s just like any tome that the lore was expanded.
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Yes they mentioned relationships in the lore which is fine. No different then the David instance. However they didn't make a big tweet about it for attention. But yes they did change his sexuality. Which BTW is the reason they had to do the tweet in the first instance. So let's say the never made the tweet. Now without the tweet, whose to say David had one instance of homosexuality and then never again? Without the tweet you could say he is homosexual and I could say he was straight, and neither one of us would have any way to prove this. They had to make a tweet to force the David change.
Also please don't just say I'm anti inclusion, A that's not an argument and B you know nothing about me.
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When was David anything else for his sexuality to be "changed"? He never had a defined sexuality untill now.
The only reason I can think they made the Twitter post is because they wanted to tell people that this is the character they promised us, and the one made in colab with GaymerX
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I didn’t mean you specifically but most people that are acting like they are not homophobic but just use any ‚argument‘ against inclusion without realizing how much of those arguments aren’t arguments to being with.
and you just stated how the announcement was necessary and not forced??
though I disagree, the tome story afaik speaks for itself: David is gay and used to have girlfriends to hide the fact he was gay. The announcement wasn’t necessary from a lore perspective. It was a follow up and conclusions to their partnership with GaymerX and celebrating a milestone they are proud of. I see how people might have a problem with the announcement and that’s valid though they certainly did have their valid reason for announcing it as well. But nothing about the tome story is forced.
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I'm a David main and I'm pretty sure most David mains are ok with it.
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I switched to Jeff
It's a waste of years of grinding but whatever
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And why is that?
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...Forced by who, exactly?
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you are talking about the devs initial stance of not including anything related to sexuality? That they forced onto them on their own pretty much. As they were the ones limiting themselves.
edit: obviously it was to please those against LGBTQ+ inclusion as we know they still have added heterosexuality
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This topic is impossible to discuss without being modded, it's a completely one sided argument so there's no point in engaging with it.
All I can say is that it should have been a new character
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victimizing yourself and talking about others victim complex? Something doesn’t add up
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Right. A big marketing announcement, blog posts, and public self pats on the back is totally not marketing at all.
/s
Post edited by Kurri on1 -
I didn’t say it wasn’t marketing, I said it was not your personal sexuality that was used there. Haven’t seen your name or any reference towards you mentioned in that marketing at least. You were talking about how there were using your sexuality for marketing which just isn’t true.
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Toxic yes
Fragile no
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It's interesting cause noone mentions the nature of disliking the reveal due to attachment, there are many players that see their character choice as their Avatar.
If David's sexuality was before undefined or open to interpretation i definetly wouldn't blame anyone for that.
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I'd like to know why.
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I thought it was better when a characters sexuality was ambiguous and could somewhat be up to the imagination of the individual player, that said I'm not fussed about David being gay in the game at all, I'm here for PVP gameplay
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Of course that approach is acceptable as well. It kinda falls flat though when they already have multiple heterosexual relationships added already. And the way they have expanded the lore it is just natural and logical that the relationships - even romantic and sexual ones - are being referred to in the tomes etc.
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This is a huge win for us as LGBTQ people. It really doesn't matter what the louder, more toxic people say about this topic. There will always be people that lack education on topics like this and then make a really stupid opinion because of it. You don't give your opinion on some random historic event that happened 500 years ago if you haven't researched it, so don't state your opinion on matters like this if you don't know anything about it.
As members of the LGBTQ community, it's important to remember this, and to happily celebrate these little wins, despite what some others may say. The fact is, more and more queer characters are being introduced across the media to create more diversity or represent those from vulnerable groups. Even if it's sometimes a capitalist thing (especially during pride month) it's still a win to have the representation.
From those times when you were all alone, I'm sure you realise that the voices of reason matter more than the voices of the uneducated. Be happy and celebrate this rather than letting others let you be down about it. It's OUR win.
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Nah, they kinda just skirted around the question and let you fill in the blanks for them so they wouldn't have to answer it for themself. I'd like to hear it from them.
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I just dont give a toss about the lore weather its sexuality or anything else
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Well, as he said, the mods would ban him of he said why. It's quite clear to me.
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It just seems like pandering lol. Like, this isn't The Sims 4 where dating is a game feature. Who cares?? It doesn't affect anything in gameplay. Just weird to make a big deal out of it.
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I'm saying that you don't choose to be attracted to people. You either are attracted or you are not.
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