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I feel like the only person who doesn’t like Nurse conceptually.
I just really strongly disagree with the notion that a good nurse with good perks- like, a 2000 hour nurse running 4 slowdown perks- should have complete control over a match. There are some REALLY insane nurses out there, but even I was able to reach a ~90% win rate after about 100 hours of learning her. And I just don’t agree with the justification of her power being the difficulty in using it. Imagine the outrage if good loopers were impossible to catch after playing one specific survivor for 200+ hours. If Jake was kinda hard to play, but after they sunk 200 hours they were just invincible. Does anyone else feel the same way? Or am I the only one who thinks that taking a ton of skill- I’m acknowledging the skill aspect- doesn’t justify being a guaranteed win?
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Nurse from a design perspective is a complete mess. Dbd is designed around pallets and windows for chase. Nurse ignores both of these and was made because those 2 things were too strong back then.
Hell she’s so strong she is the only killer who has to be slower than 110% (which is a balance metric for strong powers) to be “balanced”.
Nurse is an issue that is only going to get worse as time goes on and the game gets more balance changes
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Nurse comes from a time where the devs prioritized fun over balance. Nurse is one of my favourite killers to play and vs and I would not want a thing changed about her. However, part way through DBD's life the community pushed for more of a competitive mindset (especially the killers), which I strongly disagreed with. The fact is Nurse is 100% broken. If the game community wants to keep taking the game down a competitive balanced mindset, then yes she needs to be nerfed. But if they want to allow wacky outlandish things for both survivors and killers, then Nurse is fine, and should not be touched.
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I think people think this game will be balanced, bug-free, and run at 120fps on all consoles and PC with no slowdowns next week. They didn't make a horror game but a tragic comedy, and you have front row seats and some auric cells so sit back and enjoy the show. Haha got-eem!
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Do you like facing ALL nurses, or only nurses that make a decent amount of mistakes? I can assure you that I have never once had fun against the 4000 hour Nurse mains that land every single blink perfectly and yet still feel the need to tunnel and slug people to death.
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Nurses that slug, tunnel? No, of course not. That sounds awful, and I really hate the infectious fright Nurse. A 4000 hour nurse, that makes no mistakes. A little bit yes. The match is super intense Every second counts and I need to be on my A game to win.
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Oh believe me you’re far from the only player who doesn’t like the concept of nurse.
That said I don’t think she needs a ton of major changes but she needs something. She is a problem when it comes to the balance of the rest of the game.
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You are not wrong about the outrage against god-loopers impossible to catch, thats why BHVR got rid of infinites on several maps because once you were somewhat decent at running them a M1 Killer couldnt catch you in ages.
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And that was fine! The problem is, Nurse was made so strong in an era where it was necessary because loops were super busted. Now, they’re throwing out amazing slowdown perks, nerfed heal speed, nerfed DS (if there was any time the offensive use of DS was justified it was against Nurse!) and it just makes Nurse stronger. If they keep balancing the game to try and give Clown a 50% win rate, then great- I’d be fine with bringing up weaker killers to a fun, fair level of strength. But when they do that by buffing killers as a whole or nerfing survivors as a whole, it just makes Nurse stronger over and over.
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I disagree with the notion that good or great Nurses are impossible to run. The issue is that most players are really bad at dealing with a good Nurse, and I don't know how to rectify that.
She has unique chase mechanics and most players never develop those beyond the bare minimum basics. 99% of players and content creators think doubling back at corners on her first blink is her counterplay when that's something you should literally never do unless you visibly see her aiming for a prediction blink. The entire conversation starts from incorrect information and goes from there. The vast majority of the playerbase starts the counterplay with things that will never work against a good Nurse and then uses those things as evidence thet there's no counterplay to begin with.
I don't think it's a problem with Nurse herself. You have a unique killer with unique mechanics that players will see in maybe 5% of their matches. Of that 5%, maybe 20% of those Nurses will actually be good. So how much practice are people getting?
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There isn’t really any counterplay, though. If you double back, fake double back, don’t attempt it at all… these are all accounted for by the nurse player. If they whiff the first, regardless of which option you went with, the second blink is always going to be enough for them to correct. Maybe the fix is just take away the second blink, lol.
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Again, that's not correct. There's more to it than doubling back or not.
A Nurse can't 100% account for LOS breaks on both of her blinks. You might only be breaking LOS on her first charge and not her second.
You're not making her second blink difficult enough if it's a minor corrective blink every time. You only need to take one step to the right or left of her landing spot on her second blink to make her whiff on a long second blink. Yes, a double back is an option. But distance+LOS+left and right is the better play on her second blink. Like I said, players don't know how to play against her.
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Trust me you're not the only one here who dislike Nurse she is probably the most hated killer on the forum hell in the whole game,people complain about Nurse every days...
She has counterplay but I agree that it can be frustrating playing against a God-tier Nurse who never make any mistakes always on point with her blinks and predictions.
And her broken range add-ons make it even harder to last in chase against the Nurse,I think we should nerf some of her add-ons then maybe talk about a future rework of her power.
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This doubling-back is insane sometimes. How many games I chase a survivor, understand he will double back over the corner after my blink, blink accordingly and see him run towards me while looking away. It gets worse : they often try this "tactic" again, and again, until they are dead. Granted, it usually happens when the MMR craps-out and gives me few-hundred hours opponents but still.
One, famous, definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result -- anonymous.
Funnily enough, players with more experience have better counters and hold their own quite well. Shsocking? I know!
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Often times, maps lack LOS breakers in large portions of the map that have to be commonly traversed. And given her recharge and distance addons, no, the second blink is 95% of the time going to be close enough that there is no chance to make her whiff.
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Often? You'll have to give a few examples. If you are talking about the few small dead-zones that exist in the various map: just don't be caught there if you can't juke her yet. Running through dangerous places isn't mandatory, going around is an option.
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I would say her power by itself is fine, most survivors are just in general really bad in chase with her which the nurse player cant really help if the survivors have no clue what they're doing. Besides nurses are rare and even when you do get one, who's to say they're even good anyway, so nobody really knows how to play against her.
if we were to suggest a nerf without completely gutting her power, I would say make her fatigue slightly longer and get rid of her recharge addons.
they made the blink recharge mechanic so that she couldn't immediately blink out of fatigue and to give survivors more of a chance to break LOS so having no recharge addons and a slightly longer fatigue would be better but at the end that's never gonna happen.
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Enjoy being lectured by killer mains who don't know how to counter Nurses themselves, but will go on lengthy posts about how -you- (not them, they can't do it) should counter Nurses. Get ready for obvious "tricks and advices" everyone and their mother knows, but very few can pull off.
The fact is, yeah, she doesn't make any sense and she's utterly broken. But here's the thing, she's the only killer left whiny killer players have as a venting mechanism. When they get butthurt because they're not good enough playing actually balanced killers, they can always switch to Nurse to feel they can actually play. They can't, because once you can play Nurse it's cheat mode, but they feel like it's fair and balanced, and they're just good and capable.
It's the only relief they have, so I doubt Behaviour is going to take that away from them.
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Ok, so basically any map that doesn’t have multiple indoor segments or massive jungle gyms. A simple t-L wall or long wall L wall tiles aren’t enough, as she can simply first blink into the center to see where you went then correct with second blink.
-All autohaven maps
-Coal Tower middle area, Shelter Woods
-Most of coldwind, outside of main buildings
-Most of Yamaoka
-Most of Crotus Prenn. Again, main building is the exception that you’re basically required to reach in order to break LOS.
-About half of Dead Dawg. There’s a huge dead zone she can force a 3-gen in, made even easier because she can easily blink up to the hangman area.
-Most of Red Forest.
-a small portion of Ormond. This is one of the few remaining maps with actually large jungle gyms rather than small, single tiles.
-Most of Eyrie of Crows. The main building is especially unhelpful against nurse on this map.
so… basically most outdoor maps. Ever since the change to the tile weighting system, most loops are just single tiles that Nurse can easily blink into and see where you went because every exit leads to dead areas.
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What are we considering an LOS breaker? An actual tile? Because trees, random junk at the edges of the map, etc, all work as LOS breakers.
If her second blink is consistently a short follow up, you're not managing the initial distance properly. You have to make distance earlier against a Nurse at the start of chases than you would with other killers. If it's a corner blink, you need to move your camera to see where she's aiming and move accordingly. If you can't see her but hear her charging, separate from that tile and get behind another LOS blocker if you can.
Point being: like I said in my initial reply, if there is a handbook for looping M1 killers, there would be a separate handbook for running a Nurse with *some* overlap. But if people's expectation of counterplay is a Dark Souls no hit run, I would like them to list every other killer they're consistently pulling that off against. You're supposed to take hits in an asymmetrical game.
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These are line of sight breakers. It's more than enough to break a chase. You have to remember the Nurse has to charge the blink. Just by sound you can guess where she can land. And when she lands she still has to scan around to find the survivor in a pretty short amount of time. Just try it : take the Nurse and chase in these places. (If you never use her you may need to win a few games to go against good survivors but it should be easy, right?)
I almost forgot: big maps are usually pretty strong against the Nurse too, unless she has range add-ons.
In your list, you gave me some of the worst maps for Nurse and didn't cite her best maps.
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Simple trees and walls are not strong enough LOS breakers. We are talking best of the best players here, not 2 year olds that lack object permanence. If you break LOS with a tree, there is only one line of positions in which you can be which vastly simplifies the blink for her.
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I have played against a ton of nurses. Do you think I’m new to the game? I’ve got over 3000 hours so the nurses I play against are consistently the best in the game; simple trees or TL walls don’t work against them because they know the area you’re confined to within those loops once you break LOS into them. I can literally do the same thing while playing her.
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It's not about knowing the area and it' s never "simple trees".
To be perfectly honest, I don't get how you have 3000 hours and still approach escaping a Nurse the way you describe. (It's close to my own time.)
My mind has blown up trying to make sense of this so I'll let someone else try instead.
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Yeah I understand your point and I do agree, I think Nurse dificulty isnt as high as people make her and even if it were it doesnt justify her strength. I was just stating impossible to catch loopers generated a ton of complains and eventually BHVR got rid of them, with a good reason, god-loops were totally busted and they had to go for the game health.
It was just a preemptive strike against the usual "NOBODY EVER COMPLAINS ABOUT LOOPS AND DOESNT MATTER BECAUSE BHVR IS SURV SIDED AND NEVER CHANGES ANYTHING!!" rants that plague these kind of threads.
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Oh man I am so sad that nurse is quite hard to learn it's just not for me but I love her lore and her designe it's so cool.
I think it's hard to nerf her without making her outright bad and since I am totally against reworks I don't really know what to do with her
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The main question I have is, is the existence of nurse negatively effecting balance for the rest of the game. Do the devs need to consider her when making new content or balance changes?
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Please give conclusive statistical evidence that Nurse consistently overperforms against players of equal skill on an even-sided map. If she is so obviously overpowered and uncounterable, this should be very easy. She is not a guaranteed win, nor is she uncounterable. Matchmaking putting better players against worse players for the sake of queue times is not a balance problem. You can look at how good players loop a good Nurse for an idea of how they mindgame back even without cutting off LOS. A subjective dislike is fine. Objectively claiming she is overpowered needs support.
This is a commonly-regurgitated myth. Nurse has been out but this has not stopped significant buffs to perks such as Hex: Retribution/No Way Out/Deadman’s Switch, all of which are extremely good on her. It also has not stopped perks extremely good on her from coming out, such as Pain Resonance, Deadlock, Floods of Rage, Starstruck, so on and so forth. Killers do not really need global buffs in the first place, and the only ones they do would not be an issue on Nurse.
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I do believe she does affect negatively global buffs for Killers, except pallet and window related tweaks since she ignores those.
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the “conclusive statistical evidence” you’re asking for is the reason BHVR nerfed Pig multiple times. It’s clear that Nurse over performs at high levels despite her global kill rate being low.
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So, it should be quite easy to find conclusive statistical evidence she consistently over-performs against players of equal skill on an even map then. Let me know once you have the proof to back up your claims.
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You very much might be right, but unless someone can provide me a recent statement from the devs then i'll still question it. I'm not convinced that the existence of good perks on her is proof that they don't need to consider her. You also need to think of all the content/changes that we don't have, and if nurse played a part. This is something that only the devs can tell us.
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It's not possible to prove non-existence without an explicit statement. The only way to prove something does not exist is to know literally everything else, which is not possible. The burden of proof would be for someone to prove that the devs are actively hampered, not the other way around.
Also, the only "global" buffs that are even needed is stuff like reducing giant map sizes (also bad for Nurse, who only crosses overall distance at roughly same speed a 115% does by walking), adjusting survivor spawn locations (ie, all together or two pairs instead of separated, which doesn't really matter because decent survivors will spread out anyways at the start), and increasing base regression (0.25/s to 0.5/s and Ruin to 100% to match so it's not basically useless, but Nurse either doesn't bother kicking a gen anyways or uses stuff like Ruin/Pop/etc for primary regression so it's also not really much of a difference). And it's not like any of those three are ultra-crucial or the game is unplayable. It's just some stuff of note to get around to eventually, along with stuff like Torn Bookmark/range addons being dumb on Nurse, Alchemist Ring, Midwich being awful and tiny, etc.
Post edited by SuzuKR on1 -
Aight so does this apply to everything or just nurse? Do we have to now do a peer reviewed study on why Dead Hard is a good perk? On why Circle of Healing is OP? On how Spirit overperformed pre-nerf?
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Making up strawman isn’t helping your case. If you want to claim something is overpowered, then you should have proof to back up your claims.
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Your argument is also a fallacy. We all know that nurse is over performing; you are just asking for unnecessary statistics to prove something the community already knows and agrees on. If you genuinely think she’s not powerful you’re in the tiny, non-vocal minority. Everyone at the top level agrees she’s absurdly powerful and the strongest killer when mastered, the argument is simply whether or not that power is justified by a somewhat difficult to learn ability. I’m not going to spend 200 hours analyzing games to prove something everyone but you already knows.
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??? First of all, that is false. Second of all, many people thinking something does not make it true (bandwagon fallacy). Many people thought the Earth used to be flat. Also people at the top thinking something does not make it true (appeal to authority). Scientists of the past used to think the Sun revolves around the Earth. Give your evidence, or there is no reason to believe your supposed claim. The reason people trust scientists on things like medicine is because there is proof of the medicine’s safety and efficacy, not because they’re a scientist.
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Side question, nothing to do with this thread.
I know very well the way you argue. Are you per chance a scientist or maybe a zetetics?
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Nurse doesn't have control over a match as much as SWF does, so no, game is fine, at least when it comes to SWFs and nurse.
Probably not so much on pretty much anything else, mostly on killer's side as they can't choose to play as SWF though.
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You are objectively wrong. Nurse can’t know for sure the survivor is going to double back. She has to hold the blink charge ahead of time to counter them continuing forward. It’s a guess
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If she isn’t making any mistakes, you are getting outplayed. She has to guess to get her hits
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I mean "nurse is not fine" is mostly only on their head anyway, every data is showing how balanced she is and how fair she is.
there is really nothing to talk about when we HAVE many evidence to tell how fair and balanced she is, while everyone talking about how broken she is are only talking it from their own imagination/feeling and nothing else.
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In essence, if we ever get many other killers viable at high MMR, some people will understand the that the issue is that the other killers are underpowered.
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This might sound condescending but It's not intended that way I'm genuinely curious
What do you think 'High MMR' actually is?
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An educated guess. Like in so many other aspects of the game (and life), people are fairly predicable in chase. Funnily enough, the better you get at the game, the more predictable you become. Even those who think they aren't, are. You play enough, and you have a pretty good idea of how people are going to respond in most situations. Which is really what the "skill" in DBD amounts to; predicting the actions of your opponent based on experience.
This is why I actually find looping in chase to be really boring, it's just a numbers game; you know with some certainty that your opponent is going to do one of only a few things, and when you guess right, you get the down. But it very, very rarely results in something surprising.
Nurse just so happens to be the best equipped killer in the game for punishing predictable behavior, as she is unconstrained by loops they way other killers are. Once you have good command of her technical aspects, and a ton of time playing the game, you have a recipe for generally oppressing surv teams.
And the old double back as counterplay really loses its effectiveness as you progress.
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You know, survivors can also predict killer, and which will results win for them.
If people gets more predictable the more they get better, the chances are killer has no chance at all.
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Well, yeah, obviously it goes both ways. But there's never only one possible outcome, so either side will always have a chance. The Nurse just limits your options as a surv more than the other killers do.
Again, Nurse can adjust in ways other killers can't; get near the surv with the first blink, you've got more. Anyone who has faced good nurses knows the feeling of having few options at loops. It almost becomes a coin flip in many cases.
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But nurse can't adjust in ways other killers can, which certainly does affect how she performs.
coin flip will be considered fair because it means both side has equal chance.
The thing is, other killers have too much option on survivor's side, despite how they meant to catch up them.
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your opinion is not accurate,
nurse not only ignore 'pallets and windows'
nurse ignore 'stun and structures' while teleporting
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The idea that people get worse as the game progresses is not true. That just shows that some people can’t/won’t learn how to play. Once the Nurse knows you double back, you then fake the double back and continue running forward/breaking LOS. Her second blink doesn’t have enough distance to correct a wrong guess on a fake back. She has to commit ahead of time.
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