Lemme try to get some attention to the REAL problem of Killer in dbd
Its not dead hard, its not gen speed, its not toxic survivors or map design or perks or killers.
Its the general dynamic of the game, the gens are getting done "fast" because you fail or cant apply enough pressure on the entire TEAM so they have nothing else to do then gens obviously.
It can be your own fault of playing poorly but it can be also many other reasons such as the Killer you are playing, if you play a Clown or Ghostface you simply cant build enough pressure by downing or injuring fast enough. This therefore steamrolls up that survivors are not busy and the gens get done therefore.
How do you build pressure? Tunnel, Camp and slugging do it smart enough at the givin situation and you CAN build enough pressure or even win a game if done properly. Killers especially weaker Killers are forced to use these things BECAUSE of the lack of ability to apply enough pressure on the team exists. EVEN Blight or Nurses are forced to do it often enough, now lets not forget that we have perks that can counter these sitatiations aswell and completely turn the match still to the survivors favor with 1 single perk slot like unbreakable.
Lemme try to put this in a more simple sentence.
Killers are forced to sweat HARD in order to play, win or have fun in general in dbd.
And it sucks and annoys me, after playing the blood hunt I am happy to take another months long break, maybe I check in for Dredge and play him abit but thats the ONLY reason I play, and if I play a game only to check out the new content till I get faced enough with the core issue and leave again isnt a good sign...
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"cant apply enough pressure on the entire TEAM so they have nothing else to do then gens obviously."
AKA map design. This issue is map design.
The reason why for most killers it's literally impossible to generate enough pressure to slow gens down is because most maps are way too big and loops are way too safe.
Like 90% of the games maps could use just a flat 25% reduction in size for starters.
The game should realistically have like 90% of loops mind gameable if the killer is good enough when the pallet is thrown. Currently like 80% of the games loops are just flat out safe once the pallets thrown and you're just forced to break unless the survivors plays really, really bad.
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Ok m8.
Surely can’t be anything to do with maps when double blink nurses get wrecked by comp survivors on stuff like cornfields and macmillians.
*sarcasm off.
Map design is the issue followed by dead hard and second chances, you spend thirty seconds in a chase you’re about to down them and two gens are almost done at this point you swing and then dead hard and the survivor is back to another loop, two gens pop and a third is on its way and you’re still on the first hook.
You can’t break chase and go for someone else super early in the game when you need that first initial hook.
Midwich is a better sized map, good luck doing well as a killer at high MMR on artists maps on anything other than double blink nurse but even then she needs four blinks to reach past the middle of the map.
Another good example is an M1 killer on Mothers Dwelling, it takes you like a minute an a half to walk from one end of the map to the other so the survivors can rush the middle generator and then force you to run to each side and at that point they’ve got you at their mercy.
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Most maps are tuned around super low level play. Clown's power is great at forcing pallets down early. It's just not impactful in the grand scheme of things if survivors are being remotely optimal on their only objective. You'll never get through an impactful amount of pallets before the gens are done unless survivors are greeding pallets and taking pointless hits.
The only thing that holds the game together is the artificially lowered skill ceiling in public matches via the lack of QoL in solo queue and terrible matchmaking that forces good survivors to play with relatively bad ones on a consistent basis
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Map size isnt an issue, a big map also benefits you as the Killer since survivors need also to run more distance to reach a hook. On a map like wreckers yard any survivor at any spot can go for the save at any moment, however on red forest a survivor hooked at the shack (not basement) cant be saved from someone at the other side unless the person immidiatly strat running after the hook.
I agree that loops in general got bigger and saver but this isnt the main or the biggest issue imo.
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that is true
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If you play like that no wonder you struggle, you should go check the gen spawns in the early game and stick at that area, if you come to that situation. Epsecially on bigger maps. 3 gen is a common yet effective strategy to keep the game to your favor, and the mothers dwelling gen is horrible to defend unless you are a nurse. You actually want the gen to be popped, smart survivors leave the main gen on purpose and do it as the last one cuz that gen is basicly impossible to reach unless you throw the game.
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I can tell you don’t play high MMR then.
The stuff you mention is what low MMR survivors do. 🤔
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I wonder how ppl like you think MMR is the perfect system that predicts and matches everyone perfectly without any issues or mistakes? Will never understand MMR fanboys
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"a big map also benefits you as the Killer since survivors need also to run more distance to reach a hook."
No. The amount of time they waste running on a big map is way less time then you lose.
"I agree that loops in general got bigger and saver but this isnt the main or the biggest issue imo."
What you describe as the games main issue is you describing map design.
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I mean this "dynamic" you are talking about is kind of dependent on the things you've listed. Especially map design and gen speed.
If we had more maps with a fair share of mindgameable pallet loops and smaller sizes, the game's balance would be in a much better state. There is a reason why M1 killers are often among the weakest, as they don't really have ways to deal with the defenses that survivors have against them, and the rest of their kit doesn't make up for the lack of anti-loop. It's a real shame BHVR simply always failed to understand how map design impacts the game's balance for so long, a lot of maps that got a visual rework really would have needed some balance changes as well. It seems to be getting better though based on the newest map and the Haddonfield rework.
Of course gen speed is also a factor. If it took longer for survivors to complete their objective, then maps wouldn't need to be too small, and they could have more safe pallets, because now the killer also has more time to deal with survivors at safer loops, and they have more time to pressure gens.
Which is why I am hoping we get some form of slowdown built into the game's base kit with the perk update, especially since slowdown perks seem to be getting nerfed.
However, if the game did get more balanced, like having more balanced maps, or survivors not being able to complete their objectives as fast, tunneling and camping would have to be thrown out of the window at the same time, or going against killer would become unbearable at times. Probably also one of the problems with simply making all maps much more balanced, because somewhere during that process, tunneling and camping would have had to been nerfed a lot as well.
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Map design is definitely a problem, though 90% of pallet loops being mindgameable seems way too much. Unless you are counting pallet loops like the ones unique to the Macmillan maps as mindgameable?
Even just 50% mindgameable pallet or other loops would be fantastic. It would definitely help M1 killers, without giving anti-loop killers much of a boost. But it is fine to still have some safe pallets as well. M1 killers having to simply tear through some pallets is fine if they are compensated enough with their other possibilities. Sadako is a good example, she could be much stronger if her TV cooldown wasn't as high, and Condemnation actually pressured survivors more into doing a second objective. Not having counterplay at some loops would be fine in that case.
I do agree that a lot of maps could really use a size reduction though. However, I do feel like design wise, it wouldn't be to desirable to restrict map sizes too much either. Having all maps the size of Dead Dawg Saloon for example. Which is why I am hoping that the devs will find some way to add some slowdown into the baseline game with their upcoming perk update, especially with slowdown perks most likely getting nerfed as well.
This would also mean the devs wouldn't have to change as many maps to be fairer towards killer. They would have a better basis on which they can then try to figure out what balance changes some maps might still need.
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Why shouldn't 90% of loops be mind gameable? That leaves 10% god pallets. 90% means most loops are won by the better player, as they should be.
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Besides older maps like red forest I am wondering what not mindgamable loops you mean? Most maps have rather fair loops in terms of mindgames (Not size itsself). There are some exceptions like coldwind farm sure but the majority of maps are actually rather fine and I rarely have trouble about that.
Also no the m1 killers are so weak because the competition of the higher killers like nurse, blight and spirit is SO much higher. If those Killers are getting toned down and the m1 killers are getting some kind of way or tool to deal with pressure better the difference wouldnt be that high.
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I have no idea why this dude goes out of his way to try and rephrase that map design is the issue. I guess he wanted to feel unique, like he came up with something never before addressed.
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What are mindgameable pallet loops to you?
Mindgameable loops that I am thinking about are won by the better player if it's an M1 killer. Killers with a chase power will often have a greater chance than 50% of getting a hit at such pallet loops.
So if we are really talking about pallet loops where an M1 killer has a 50% chance to outmindgame a survivor and then get a hit, I probably don't agree. At least not currently.
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I'm talking about m1 killers yes. Even anti-loop killers are going to have to waste time circling the loop at least 3 times before they even get a chance at a hit. Most the anti-loop killers in the current state are still not viable against equally good high mmr survivors so if this inadvertently moves them up more I don't see an issue.
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No, how can you even say that?
When you do a 3-gen, you do it on 3 far-away corners of the map?
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This is the thing under the old system red rank basically = time spent online, so you had this odd mix of pros and potatoes.
Those potatoes were invaluable to the killer game, an exploitable weak link that kind of indirectly balanced even organized play.
MMR for survivor does a pretty good job of weeding out the potato in a lot of games. I find in solo queue, sure its harder than swf, generally my team mates know what to do and get it done.
Unless you are in the constant downward spiral of death due to bad team mates MMR hell scenario, which happens, MMR is pretty good for survivor.
With a well balanced survivor team, even a solo one, the ability to apply pressure by splitting up on gens usually outweighs a killers ability to apply pressure to all 4 survivors, not always but often enough.
So the solution is to remove a player, if you can't exploit a weak player then just remove one strong one ASAP. You've now rebalanced the game in your favour as killer.
This isn't every game but its often enough that survivors complain of being tunneled and killers complain of feeling overly pressured.
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You have a survivor slugged and you just stalked someone as Ghostface and now run for that survivor to slug to gain more pressure, now that survivor just runs straight and holds w without ANY loop or tile. You stil need around 20-30sec to reach and down him and in the meantime someone else just picks up that other survivor. That is not a map design issue dont know why ppl like you make it that easy to blame such a complicated issue with just 1 single thing.
Yes map design IS an issue but its not the only issue. There are ton of other issues that all add up. But I think its anyway in vain trying to explain this to ppl like you.
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I dont know why you say that I am applying to map design. Its the general game design that survivors are 4 ppl and meanwhile you try to chase down a survivor that others are free to do so what they want and therefore it can snowball out very easily. Unless you want to say that maps should literally be smaller then wreckers yard and if so then I heavily disagree, small maps are increadably unfun and not healthy for dbd.
My main point I am trying to make is that Killers need some kind of extra mechanic to reward or help applying pressure. Best example for injuring survivors. VHS also has a mechanic to reward the Killer with injuring survivors where they can build up a meter. Dbd needs exactly or something simiular like this.
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100% agree with this.
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Shelter Woods is the second biggest map in the game, paired with Azarovs Resting Place, both strong Killer maps.
The problem with maps is not only size, its also generator clusters, number of pallets and god loops, The Game is a very small map but the sheer number of pallets make it one of the most Survivor sided maps of all, Grim Pantry is a very big map with a very strong main building but the way gens can spawn in a huge cluster on one side of the map make it effectively half the size to patrol, Shelter Woods is inmense, almost as big as Mother's Dwelling but barely any pallets, almost no linked gyms and basement close to the center make it easy to win, once you get rid of shack pallet the map has nothing else to work with.
Size its part of the problem and making all maps smaller would create a huge problem with certain Killers, Blight, Spirit and Nurse are strong, you get one of those on a regular map and you have a problem, you get them on Coal Tower and you are toast, they can traverse it in literally seconds.
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The main problems are the map sizes, generator placements, the abundance of safe loops/pallets and survivors spawning next to a generator.
A lot maps are too big and have the generators next to the edges of the map, also the main buildings of most maps are too safe.
There are a lot of generators in too safe and/or difficult to reach places, too hard to defend them, for example the generator in the saloon of Dead Dawg Saloon is a lost generator most of the games, the same for the one in Thompson House or the ones in the second floor of houses in Badham/Haddonfield or the one in the house in Mother's Dwelling and to less extend the ones in the Dead Dawg gallows or the one in the Swamp pier. In my opinion none of the generators in the game should be safe to repair all of them should be in the ground level.
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"Its the general game design that survivors are 4 ppl and meanwhile you try to chase down a survivor that others are free to do so what they want and therefore it can snowball out very easily."
You're describing a map design issue again without knowing it. The entire reason you can't pressure 4 survivors enough simultaneously as you're talking about is literally because of map size and loop strength. If maps were smaller and loops not as unbalanced you could pressure 4 survivors at once if you were skilled enough.
"Unless you want to say that maps should literally be smaller then wreckers yard and if so then I heavily disagree, small maps are increadably unfun and not healthy for dbd."
I don't think that. Wreckers yard is a good sized map relative to its design. It's also important to note that not all map sizes are created equal. A good example is Badham. Depending which variant they're nearly the same size as Wreckers but much more unbalanced because of tile strength and map layout. I'd say the ideal sized map in general would be Coal Tower though. Coal Tower is a good sized map that you can pressure and should be more of a template for other maps.
"My main point I am trying to make is that Killers need some kind of extra mechanic to reward or help applying pressure."
Smaller maps in general and more balanced tiles allows them to apply pressure as you're talking about.
Post edited by Blueberry on0 -
"How do you build pressure? Tunnel, Camp and slugging"
You build pressure by winning chases and downing survivors quickly.
After the gates are powered all is fair game but I would rather chase another survivor than do circles around a hook even if it means I "lose"
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Its not like I am the only one who thinks that way, truetalent for example also keeps saying this (Not that I watch him really but I know that he uses this as an argument often aswell).
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Well that is just us having different views, I dont see smaller maps as the solution (It is 1 solution but the most boring one). I like having bigger maps. You can have bigger maps that are balanced if you do it right. However you can have even matches that are "unwinnable" on certain Killers even on Coal tower. The map size has nothing to do with matches where survivors play very effeciant on gens AND loops. Loops are not that unbalanced as you claim them to be, I dont know where you are getting this really but loops are nowadays rather okey with some exceptions like coldwind or the game. Especailly the lower end of Killers STILL will have a very hard time at Coal tower with the perfect version of the map, the problem of dbd isnt just map design. It is one problem out of many however Maps are rather okeyish and not as broken as you are trying to say. Atleast thats how I view it and will view it always.
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"Well that is just us having different views, I dont see smaller maps as the solution (It is 1 solution but the most boring one). I like having bigger maps."
Bigger maps get abused with hold W game play which IS one of the most boring parts of the game. I think the majority of people would agree with this.
"You can have bigger maps that are balanced if you do it right."
Not a single one has been done "right". Even if it was balanced correctly, simply through sheer map size it would be bad design as you would again have hold W game play.
"However you can have even matches that are "unwinnable" on certain Killers even on Coal tower."
I agree, never said this wasn't the case. All I said was that Coal Tower was the ideal map size. Even Coal Tower could still use some changes, it's just one of the closest to balanced maps we've got.
"The map size has nothing to do with matches where survivors play very effeciant on gens AND loops."
The entire reason you can't pressure them when they play efficiently on gens and loops IS because of the map size and loop strength.
"Loops are not that unbalanced as you claim them to be, I dont know where you are getting this really but loops are nowadays rather okey with some exceptions like coldwind or the game."
The majority of the veteran community would disagree with you as well as it seems most people on the forums. There's a reason most comp meta is pre throwing pallets, it's because most the loops aren't reasonably mind gameable once the pallets thrown and force a pallet break if the survivors are actually good.
"Especailly the lower end of Killers STILL will have a very hard time at Coal tower with the perfect version of the map, the problem of dbd isnt just map design."
Right, because some loops there are still too strong.
"It is one problem out of many however Maps are rather okeyish and not as broken as you are trying to say. Atleast thats how I view it and will view it always."
If most people disagree with you do think there's a chance you could be wrong?
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Pre drop is strong only in comp because survivors are efficient on gens. Killers are forced to insta break pallets BECAUSE they have such little time because of the efficient gen repair of an entire team. If the Killer would have more time or a easier way to apply pressure they would have the time to play on a loop. Also I see still to this day comp players misunderstanding how and when to properly break a pallet at what situation. You dont insta break every single pallet that is beeing prethrown.
Idk how you can read this and still say "its cuz of map size". A map size has nothing to do with the coordiation of a team and the ability to efficiently split on gens. You can blame it there on gen spawns but thats it.
Again not saying map size is no issue at all but it is definatly not the only issue and only solution that would fix the game.
You can use the argument of "the community disagrees with you here" as much as you want, the opinion of the majority doesnt make an argument right or true.
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"Pre drop is strong only in comp because survivors are efficient on gens. Killers are forced to insta break pallets BECAUSE they have such little time because of the efficient gen repair of an entire team."
Right, BECAUSE you don't have the time to try and play the loop since it's overly safe and isn't worth it.
"If the Killer would have more time or a easier way to apply pressure they would have the time to play on a loop"
YES, a smaller a map takes less time to traverse and more balanced loops means you can play the loop and get the hit earlier rather than just kicking it and getting nothing.
"Also I see still to this day comp players misunderstanding how and when to properly break a pallet at what situation. You dont insta break every single pallet that is beeing prethrown."
Comp players don't just insta break every single pre thrown pallets. That isn't what happens. Certain pallets are auto breaks, certain ones are not. It may seem like they auto break them all because like I said from the very beginning most loops are not mindgameable with the pallet thrown against good survivors and force a break. What's more likely, all the comp players are doing it wrong and you're the right one or the opposite?
"Idk how you can read this and still say "its cuz of map size". A map size has nothing to do with the coordiation of a team and the ability to efficiently split on gens."
Reread what you just typed. "and the ability to efficiently split on gens". When a map is very large and they split on gens it puts them too far away from one another to be able to bounce back and forth split pressuring them. I feel like you're holding up a puppy and being like yeah it's barking, there's definitely a tail wagging and it's really furry but this just doesn't seem like a puppy to me. Everyone else is screaming dude it's a puppy!. idk man.
"Again not saying map size is no issue at all but it is definatly not the only issue and only solution that would fix the game."
I never said it was the only issue or that it was the only solution that would fix the game. It's simply the biggest issue and the easier fix than doing tons of other things to try and fix the same problem in a longer roundabout way.
"You can use the argument of "the community disagrees with you here" as much as you want, the opinion of the majority doesnt make an argument right or true."
That isn't what I said either, you're misconstruing the statement. The statement of almost everyone else disagreeing with you isn't proof of you being wrong. The entire point of that is to illustrate that you should at least take that to question and reevaluate your stance and the possibility that you could just in fact be wrong. This was brought up because "Atleast thats how I view it and will view it always."
If a person is genuinely seeking truth on something they would go into their research and discussions with an open mind, not with a mind set that they will always be right on this topic and their mind will never be changed. For example, there's not a single thing that I think is true that I am not open to having my mind changed on and that I could potentially be wrong on. That isn't what you presented here though.
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Only cuz I disagree with you doesnt make me not open minded lol. I appreciate you answering everything so precise, dont get me wrong. How I wrote before its just we got different views, you think its the best solution to do it cuz it is the easiest, yes that is true but its not the way to always take the easiest solution when there are a ton of better ways to deal with it.
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Once again, that isn't what I said, at all.
"Atleast thats how I view it and will view it always."
That is not an open minded statement. You essentially said I'll always think I'm right.
We can just agree to disagree, I don't think were going to get anywhere.
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