The easiest way to remove tunneling and camping from the game
- remove hook timer and self unhook attempts, survivors will stay on hook until rescued with no time limit, if all survivors are hooked at the same time they instantly die (as it is now)
- remove hook states per survivor, all hooks are shared between all survivors
- the killer will kill any survivor at the 3rd hook - it doesn’t matter if that survivor has been hooked before - (if it is imbalanced make it 4rth) then he will kill the second survivor at the 6th hook and the third survivor at the 9th hook.
Now the killer has no reason to camp or tunnel :
- camping will make the killer lose, survivors will have unlimited time to repair gen, then open the gates, rescue and all leave
- tunneling is useless, you can chase another survivor and get value.
Edit - to prevent even more tunneling :
- the killer will kill any survivor at the 3rd hook if he has hooked 3 different survivors
- otherwise the first kill will be at the 4rth hook
Now the killer has absolutely no reason to tunnel because he is rewarded for going for someone else.
Comments
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It will stop camping but i think survivors are just gonna complain about slugging, killer like starstruck nurse or oni going to be the strongest choice for killers. But hopefully perks like soul guard, unbreakable, and boons will be enough for survivors to not complain about slugging.
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"remove hook states per survivor, all hooks are shared between all survivors"
You said you wanted to remove tunneling, not give a better incentive for it. If there are three really good loopers and one weak looper, killers would hammer the hell out of the weak link until it's now a Death Hook then get a good looper. Sorry good looper, you got one chase and now you're dead cause I stacked against the weak player.
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I wouldn't really remove hook timer, it's good to be under some pressure at least.
Hook pool is really bad idea. SoloQ is already bad enough. Imagine players that give up and just run after killer all the time. I want to have at least some chance to win that.
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I don’t think so. In fact, I am positive that bad loopers won’t make it to high MMR with this rework :
- A bad looper won’t be able to hide all game, let others take the heat of the killer / be tunneled or camped at his place, and then leave through the exit gates or hatch. Because at key moments of the match, if he gets caught due to a lack of skill, he will actually die instead of being carried by his own selfishness.
- good loopers can actually carry now, instead of looping for a good amount of gen and then be facecamp with noed and die (and lose MMR). Facecamping with 1 hook 1 kill in endgame won’t exist anymore. Facecamping at all won’t exist.
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It'd be much easier if the Entity would abandon these weird standards around hooking and just let us killers do what we do best! 😩
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That's gonna make it so miserable for killer and probably survivor. There would be either a lot of slugging or a lot of waiting.
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So Baby Meg gets hooked twice at 5 gens, then I get caught out, hooked and I'm dead? Yeah no thanks.
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This change would require almost every aspect in the game to be looked at, rebalanced, overhauled, and tweaked; and that'd take forever.
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Seemed like a genuine attempt, and while I don't agree with it, it does have some good points and appears to be a fresh take. Did it really warrant that response?
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If you are playing with a baby meg, you are at the same MMR so you are a baby survivor too playing against a baby killer.
But yes, with this rework playing selfishly for whatever reason (blaming your teamates and calling them baby for exemple) won’t give you any value anymore. You will have to work as a team.
By the way, the next step for MMR is to be team based. So that "baby Meg" will impact your games soon.
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That would imply MMR worked reliably which was know it does not.
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My bad, MMR is rigged and for some reason you have way more skill than your teamates. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
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Because that's exactly what I said.
The fact is that as a solo survivor I can have one game where I have 3 strong loopers who also prioritise gens, and -literally- the next game I can have a couple of survivors who hide in a corner the second spine chill flashes, fail skill checks multiple times and go down in two seconds of chase.
I'm far from an amazing survivor, heck I'd say I'm pretty average, but I do sometimes get people who are just outright bad. That's not their fault at all, MMR shouldn't have paired them with me.
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How is someone dying on their first hook better than how the game is now with tunneling and camping? And if it's every 3rd hook, can't the killer still tunnel the same survivor for those 3 hooks? Also, I do think the hook timer needs to be extended but consider that survivors will have less incentive to go for the save at all if there is no hook timer pressuring them.
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remove hook timer and self unhook attempts, survivors will stay on hook until rescued with no time limit
You trust the community too much. There's no doubt trolls would abuse it to make the game miserable for some unlucky solo.
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Yes the killer will still be able to tunnel but it won’t give him any value. In fact, if the tunneled survivor has antitunnel perks he will have less value than going for someone else (right know tunneling is still the better strat, doesn’t matter how much DS you have to eat).
3 hooks might be a too low, that’s why I was thinking about 4 hooks.
Or maybe give 3 hooks restrictions like hooking 3 different survivors, but 4 hooks if you tunneling 2 survivors or less.
I think survivors will still have incentive to rescue because remember if they don’t and the whole team gets slugged / hook at the same time everyone will die. They wont rush the hook tho.
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That's a good point about still having an incentive, but maybe everyone needs to be hooked a least once in order for someone to die. Assuming these changes do raise the kill rate like they intend to.
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No! But you can give survivors perk which makes you able to give one hook state for other survivor kind of like for the people. Someone dying on first hook would be very unfair so for that idea nope. For facecamping I would say make the timer go slower like 80s for one hook state instead 60s.
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First off, the devs aren't trying to remove tunneling or camping. They have stated it's valid and are only trying to nerf the overall strength of the tactics by providing some basekit buffs so survivors don't need to run specific perks to deal with it.
Second, your solution isn't great even if the devs wanted to remove those tactics. First off, it would suck to make a single mistake in a trial and get instant sacrifice because the killer hooked 3 times before going after me. And sharing hook states doesn't even stop tunneling as the killer is now more incentive to focus on the easiest to hook survivors since it'll burn hook states faster.
Third, you've just given a stronger griefing tool for the killer. Now if a killer just wants to grief you, they can just camp you on hook and there is literally nothing you can do about. At least currently you can try to unhook yourself or let yourself die, but now those options are being completely removed and you just sit there.
You are trying to fix a problem that the devs have stated isn't a problem by making the game much more unforgiving for solo players who already have to deal with whether or not they were able to get matched with teammates of their own skill level to begin with.
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I agree, honestly I know the devs won’t add this idea.
This is a suggestion aimed at survivors complaining about tunneling and camping. I am trying to show that removing tunneling and camping will create new problems because it will force the survivors to work as a team. And a lot of them don’t want to.
In fact DBD is interesting in a way that it makes the survivors chosing between playing altruistic or selfish. For exemple :
- A survivor thinking : "Do we have still a chance to win at this point ? Should I try to find a medkit instead of repairing this gen and hide for the hatch ?"
- Another survivor avoiding the killer, letting his teamates getting hooked, only unhooking them so they can be meat shields, useful to buy enough time to repair the generators.
So the more you remove tunneling and camping strats, the more the survivors have to play as a team and it removes this entire aspect of the game. But at the same time, everyone is complaining about it, how solo Q is hell because teamates are farming hooks, selfcaring in corners, ect…
- About tunneling : I made an edit to reward the killer for hooking different survivors instead of tunneling. It’s 4 hooks to kill if you tunnel instead of 3.
- About camping : you forgot there is no timer now, the killer can try to facecamp all game, your team will repair gens, remove noed then save you.
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You basically nerf soloq even more.
Survivors are your problem there.
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So, shared hook states would actually work if the game was properly balanced around it, but it's not.
Basically, you're asking for a new game. It's honestly not a bad idea, and one I've toyed with, but ya, it would be a new game at that point.
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All killers need to be as effective as Blight/Nurse.
The moment wraith is as effective in chase as Nurse then you wont see killers need to camp.
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Once there is a pool of hookstates/lifes, survivors kinda would konda stop caring about anything except camping and rushing those gens, especially if theres no time pressure to unhook.
Survivors already dislike being hooked for a minute. Howd they cope with "the time it takes to power the gens".
If i recall correctly, those were kinda the things that went wrong with Deathgarden.
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Deathgarden died because it was waaaaaaaaay too easy to play the "killer" vs randoms without voice coms. Instead of balancing DBD they made a new game.
Working on a generator while a survivor is on a hook should reduce your points/emblems. It would promote the idea that you need to stop what you are doing and go save the person.
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Nope, the best way to fix Camping and Tunneling is not forcing Killers to do it if they want to win a game :)
Fix Maps, Fix SWF unbalance, Fix Gen Speed (10sec increase, what a meme) and incentivize me as killer to not camp a survivor until death. Otherwise killers will tunnel, and mark my words, after next update, tunnel will increase A LOT
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You're not wrong. Removing a player from the game is an instant and permanent -25% generator repair modifier.
Strong generator slow down perks make killers feel comfortable not camping. And what are they doing? Nerfing them to oblivion.
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That is the main reason why tunnel will increase next update. Gen regression perks are nerfed to the ground, but Prove is not nerfed and repairing perks are not going to be nerfed, so this will increase Tunnel and Camp a lot.
I can manage 3 seconds DS, But I can´t manage 4 players genrushing me , so I have to reduce their number as fast as I can.
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There is one perk that will be even worse than PTS if they break a hex totem - too bad you will never break my hex totem as I never use hexes (unlike boons they suck).
I can say for sure if I play killer after the perk changes I will definitely be camping more and I already tunnel hard.
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It's not fair for a good survivor to die from first hook if killer couldn't catch them after hooking 3 others
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Is not fair a map with 25 pallets like Puzzle.
Is not fair a map like Cowshed.
Is not fair a map like Badham.
Is not fair to play coms SWF.
But it stills in the game, so end first with this unfair advantages and then fix the problems that this advantages creates.
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I'm not sure if DEVs are ready for an overhaul, for now they can just make hook times longer, say by 30-40%. Right now you can safely get 2k if you camp, it makes no sense.
If hook times are longer, first of all it's not going to hurt non-camping killers whatsoever, they can hunt other survivors, it's actually even better for the killer, it's one survivor less who could do gens. And even those who proximity-camp won't be penalized by longer hook times directly, because right now in 9 out of 10 cases survivors get rescued before they reach the next hook stage anyway, unless the killer stays near the hook.
The killer can still camp, but then he'll just get 1 survivor at most, it's his choice. And that's how it's supposed to be, killer shouldn't win or draw by camping.
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"Every killer must have a huge advantage over solo queue, and an advantage over all SWF except 4 of the absolute best tournament groups which you have never gone against anyways. Solo survivors consist of about 50 percent of games according to stats, but every killer should have a basically free win when going up against them. Why? Because if they can win easily then they will take it easier on these solo queue players."
Even the most delusional nurse mains would be embarassed to say this. Come on. Drop the bias and look at the game from not just the point of view of your favorite play style.
If you want to win with no consideration of how fair it is for the other team/player(s), just go play a single player game.
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Sorry but this sounds like a horrible suggestion.
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The real problem why tunneling is happening and why Killers have to resort to shameful acts is because of how pathetic Gen speeds are.
You chase 1 survivor while all 3 are on a Gen and by the time you finally hook the survivor you chased 2-3 gens get done.
The problem has always been about Gens, nothing more nothing less.
The amount of gens need to be upped by 1 or 2 to actually have a longer game and let the Killer have enough time to go for other survivors, rather than stop everything and make sure that 1 survivor dies as fast as possible, just to make the game more fair for the Killer.
Remember that you are a single Killer vs 4 different players who can co-ordinate and each of them have their own builds and items + addons.
Again, if you want tunneling to completely stop, then the game needs to be slowed down for the Killer to actually want to go for other survivors and try and hook them, before 3 Gens get popped.
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It was the most hilarious idea I've ever read about camping and tunneling.
Me dying at my first hook because the Killer hooked other people twice before me?
LOL! Oh boy, next time, I wanna see the "Survivors start the trial dead". Here, you'll be sure no one is tunneled/camped.
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LoL so you want to add more unfair mechanics instead of fixing the other ones?
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Stop with the Bias. I regularly play against tournament dbd team members - they have the logo in their steam profile. I often play against people who loop pixel perfect the entire game without ever making a mistake.
Actually according to the last released stats from the devs solo queue is less than 25% of players. They presented the info in a misleading way. So that means 75% of players have a 15% advantage in terms of escape rates. Let's not forget Freddy got nerfed for having a 4% higher kill rate.
If you are not playing a killer that zooms you are at a disadvantage on any map larger than 9000m².
If you are playing against a SWF you are at a disadvantage.
If you are playing an M1 killer you are at a huge disadvantage,
There is no "getting good" with certain killers. Otz said for example on his stream today it would be impossible for him to do a 50 win streak on Michael Myers. That would be 50 games of wins in a row with no addons and no offerings where he has to get three kills.
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I feel like even you don't know what you are trying to say.
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Here are some bullet points for you:
1) Maps that are larger than 9000m² are unfair to every killer that cant teleport and isn't Nurse/Blight.
2) SWF is grossly unfair and needs to give the killer compensation (i.e. 4 extra perks chosen before the match that activate in case of SWF).
3) M1 killers are completely unplayable after you reach a certain level of MMR.
4) Survivors rushing generators forces the killer to camp/tunnel if they lose too many gens too fast.
5) Making gens take 10 seconds longer and nerfing all the gen defense perks is actually a step backwards for balance.
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Largely agree with all of that.
However, I strongly believe that buffing killers to nurse and blight is a very bad idea.
First maps should be given a standard. Of course SWF should be nerfed. Solo should be buffed. Nurse and Blight should be hard nerfed. Other killers should be buffed, maybe, wait and see how much this new patch helps them.
Buffing every other killer, and even solo queue up to nurse and Blight is a very bad idea. I'm not interested in playing a game where everything is OP so nothing is. Nurse and Blight definitely need to be toned down if the other stuff happens (which it probably won't, knowing these devs), and even if it doesn't (nurse and SWF nerfs same time please)
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I think you mean that in a joking way to show how badly thought out it often is to ask for both mechanics to be removed, but the issue is that your idea is pretty good but fundamentally flawed lol.
This system could easily be implemented and increase the overall quality of survivor matches immensely.
First of about the flawed logic you follow.
This mechanic, if implemented and replacing the current gameplay loop of DbD would kill the first surv on the 9th hook. Then the 10th, 11th and the 12th hook wouldn’t exist anymore as they plan to introduce a new mori mechanic that would then replace that last hook.
The idea of hook states being shared wouldn’t result in the third or fourth hooks being a death as that isn’t the logic DbD follows. A balanced match of DbD should result in two kills and two escapes what for the most part would result in matches that last at least 3 survs into the endgame, with one more dying during that time span.
Nothing about the current DbD meta off tunneling out one player early is really intended or should be aspired for a potential fix. Any fix should focus on equal fun of all players for obvious reasons.
Changing the whole hook system to what you proposed would work wonders though to archive more fun and balanced matches. It would also allow a lot of buffs to killers and maybe even nerfs to surv base mechanics to archive that goal of consistently getting 10 hooks as a killer, which then would give you two kills.
In the current state it obviously would be flawed and often create really tough and unfun matches for the killers, what we also would want to prevent with any base game changes.
But your idea would make a better foundation to balance the gameplay then the current version.
The biggest issue is that those changes are probably too much to do to an ongoing live service game and would be more fitting for a DbD 2, what we’re probably never getting, but who knows
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Hook camping is a tactic that's why it hasn't been touched.
Devs even said that...
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When it is used as a tactic and not just to get 2 easy random kills as some campers do, then it's just annoying and cheesy, there's little tactic in it.
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Can you tell me what unfair mechanics am I adding to the Game by fixing maps???
Zero sense
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