Wait are the endurance effects actually stacking?
If so this is absolutely insane and overpowered.
You can go from bt,to dh to otr and have basically 3 protective health slates,and if that's not enough,you can also use ds on top of that.
If endurance effects stack,this is absolutely bonkers,once you are put in mending state,all the other endurance effects should automatically be canceled
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I'm pretty sure Off The Record deactivates with the same hit BT does.
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You would be incorrect.
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It currently does not.
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I'm of two minds.
1). On paper, it definitely sounds like a lot, yet
2). This really wouldn't bother someone who didn't tunnel the same person immediately.
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This would also be true . . . on paper. Except there are already videos out there showing how aggressively it is being used for body-blocking the Killer.
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I agree,if its used for body blocking then its like an instant mettle of man.
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Yes and stack is needed to prevent tunnel
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I think 1 endurance effect at a time is enough,especially how op off the record is now.
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80 seconds is way too long of a window if we're talking about tunneling. That opens up the opportunity to use Off The record offensively and body block for teammates in chase. That will break the game in high level play.
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We've just tested this internally and I can confirm that it does indeed deactivate both Borrowed Time and Off the Record in a single hit. Anything that grants multiple Endurance effects at the same time should only extend the Endurance effect to the longest duration, not allow you to take multiple hits.
However, using Dead Hard to block another hit afterwards is expected since the Endurance effect only begins once you use it, so the Endurance effects are not stacking.
If you do notice that two Endurance effects stack (as in they're active at the same time and allow you to take multiple hits, like with Borrowed Time and Off the Record), please be sure to report this as a bug. This is not the intended behaviour.
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I mean, things like this are literally designed whether intentionally or not to encourage such stuff.
A person with these perks can't do anything else EXCEPT get in killers face, which is what we all know will happen.... if they do anything else they lose their perk proc, so why not just troll the killer a bit for 80 seconds
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Thanks for testing and letting us know! Especially in terms of framing what is/is not intended helps us a lot when it comes to interpreting what we're seeing in the PTB since our default reflex is generally to see anything that happens as intended.
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So parsing this, if mettle of man is active and you have OTR it should only be one hit, but if mettle of man is 1 stack short and someone takes an OTR hit, then MoM activates, only then should they be able to take that extra hit?
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That makes sense to me - thanks for clarifying!
I still worry greatly about what sorts of killer meta behaviors seem likely to me to arise out of the ways OTR, DH, and MoM interact (killers prioritizing hitting unhooked survivors immediately to deny OTR and then plausibly continuing to commit to that chase, primarily) - but it's good to have some clarification on what the mechanical expectations are here.
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Now killer can't hurt survivor.
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5 gens left.
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One Killer can counter all this endurance effects. Play The Executioner. Problem solved.
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Is this really intended to work this way?
MoM is an incredibly powerful effect, that's why it has a high cost, 3 protection hits.
It woukd typically take several encounters to rack up 3 protection hits, with breaks between to stop and heal.
But with all of these endurance effects now, it's not only possible, but common, to rack up 3 protection hits in a single chase encounter, which then extends that to 4 potential safe hits.
MoM doesn't seem like it was built for this, and is being abused by aggressive bodyblockers who can harass the killer with no fear of ever going down.
You guys keep saying that patch was meant to address tunneling/camping, while increasing kill rates and making killers something to be feared.
Instead, it's making tunneling unavoidable, because unhooked survivors are invulnerable and have no fear of the killer.
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When we talk about intended behaviour, we don't mean to say that this is the best way. Intended behaviour is more about what is or is not a bug. If something falls outside of the intended behaviour, then it is a bug and needs to be fixed.
Beyond that, it all comes down to feedback, and I'm here to collect feedback whether you love it or hate it.
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And 2 that have been hooked once and 1 on death hook.
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Whats your problem with this situation? Soulguard gives the endurance. the hits activates the endurance effect and was the third hit for MoM. This is how it actually works on live, too. Noone ever complained about this, cause its a really niche situation.
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because on live it is very hard to start this chain, and the payoff is not necessarily worth it. With 80 second endurance allowing you to not only be healed to full but then aggressively get into the killers face it changes quite a lot of things.
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I think a lot of the anxiety behind the talk about endurance is being leveraged on the PTB is that it obfuscates the killer's ability to interpret health states accurately. A killer sees the last survivor they hooked running around, still injured 30 seconds after the unhook, and they assume the survivor has 1 health state but they secretly still have 2 (with a potential 3rd if they're running Dead Hard and time it right). The same killer sees the first survivor they hooked running around healthy and assumes they're good for a chase again but discover they don't just have two health states, they have three! (OTR was still active even though they were healthy) - and, they potentially are still running Dead Hard too so if they time it right then they actually have four.
When the dialogue around killers selecting who to chase is so heavily rooted in moral language ("tunneling is amoral, and something killers do intentionally") - then killers who are repeatedly surprised by colliding facefirst into anti-tunneling resources are both feeling cheated, because they didn't intentionally tunnel, and also feel some degree of admonishment by the mechanics - because they just ate anti-tunnel resources.
I could be off the mark somewhat, but hopefully this helps add some context to why this part of the PTB is getting the reaction it's been getting so far.
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OTR doesnt apply in this situation. No 80s for anything. So whats the deal?
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I feel like you're arguing in bad faith if you don't think changing the input into the endurance train equation changes anything. MoM on live is awful, MoM on PTB is an extremely good perk and didn't even receive any changes. Having OTR so easily available means ALL endurance effects got a massive buff.
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I asked a simple question in regards to the posted video and youre just trying to evade my question by talking about a different situation. whataboutism at its best. answer the question, or let it be.
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I'm a bit confused about your explanation for Dead Hard:
let's say you currently have endurance activated (for whatever reason aside MoM, so let's say borrowed time or feral frenzy). If you use dead hard and time it correctly you don't get downed because you are activating again an Endurance effect, but the first endurance was never removed in the first place.
Is this an intended behaviour? If that is the case, then yes, endurance effects stack, but not all of them, which is extremely confusing and goes a bit in the opposite direction of the "normalisation" of perks/variables you guys are striving for in the last few years.
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"because X didn't receive a direct buff/change literally nothing has changed about it regardless of other changes"
lol k
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ok, so what I'm understanding is that you are not stacking potential endurance effects, but, given the chance, you can activate endurance effects a virtually infinite amount of time before mending (even if at the moment this is not a possibility), correct?
To put this in another form:
it's like if you were in madness tier 3, almost done with your snap out, then you get shocked again and you get your snap out timer reset (this is not how it works, but it's a bit like endurance is working at the moment)?
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Endurance stacking shouldn't be possible (multiple active effects of endurance resolve simultaneously on hit)
Endurance chaining is currently possible so long as there are means to continuously tee up new forms of endurance to replace the used up effects.
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yeah this makes sense and I'm ok with that.
I guess I always thought endurance effects could not be activated on an already mending person because the only way to do it in the past would have been to use a styptic agent... but you can't use a med-kit while you have endurance active.
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Yup that's correct - I had the same misconception. (Although personally I think that being under deep wounds should prevent the ability to gain the endurance effect. Mettle of Man would retain its unique status of circumventing this requirement while all other sources of endurance exist on a level playing field)
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Considering dead hard would be worthless with a tunnelling killer I'm ok with this behaviour. However I hope they will not add more perks along the way that could allow you to activate this effect in other ways. Like, imagine a "if you vault a window or a pallet 10 times in a chase you activate the endurance status effect for 10 seconds" :P
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So its going to be considered an intended thing for survivors to be able to chain multiple instances of endurance effects one after another so the killer would have to hit someone 4 or 5 times to down them potentially.
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One thing that seems to be a point of confusion in this thread is some people are conflating Endurance and Deep Wounds. They’re actually independent conditions, not everything that grants Endurance inflicts a Deep Wound on a hit and vice versa (e.g. Mettle of Man doesn’t inflict a Deep Wound). So it shouldn’t be surprising that you can gain a new stack of Endurance while already having Deep Wounds as well, they’re separate effects.
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3 players surrounding the killer playing with endurance effects in the PTB. Do you really think they're interested in / care about doing gens?
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Here's a suggestion.
The issue isn't endurance stacking, it's the chaining of endurance allowing a Survivor to take several hits in a row.
What if each endurance hit you take while already in Deep Wound reduced your mend timer?
Example. OTR puts you into Deep Wound and need to mend within 20 seconds. If you then get hit under DH while still within that same Deep Wound, your mend timer is now 0.5 seconds. Meaning the moment you stop running without instantly mending you fall on the ground.
This still gives a Survivor a chance to get away as both perks are intended to be used for. But makes using them in an aggressive way adds some risk as if you do then you're almost certain to be downed right after.
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I like this idea, but I think a better way to balance it would be to make it so taking an Endurance hit while under the effect of Deepwound reduced your Deepwound timer by 10 seconds.
This essentially allows you to chain up to two Endurance hits, e.g. OtR + DH, or OtR + MoM, or BT + Styptic, etc. which is basically the state of the game before this patch.
While also giving you the time to stand still for a few seconds without immediately going down to deepwound.
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Except that the person with OTR can literally go get healed and then run back to whoever the killer is chasing and tank 2 free hits.
This extends past tunneling at this point and in fact makes tunneling and camping even MORE necessary than before. Great job BHVR!
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And the fake lag hit on Claudette, but that's alright because it benefits The Killer.
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That was my original thought, but in the end that doesn't do anything to help with the issue of chaining several hits together.
1 single extra hit is often MASSIVE. DH alone proves this. Being able to take 2 extra hits, 3, 4(!) extra hits is game breaking no matter how rare it can be. It's the exact reason MoM got it's nerf. Extra hits are far too strong to allow them to be stacked or chained.
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Not 2 extra hits, just 2 hits.
You get hit once under OtR, and go into Deep Wound.
You get hit a 2nd time with say DH, and your Deep Wound goes down to 10s.
The next hit, Endurance or otherwise, will still knock you down. 10s off of 10s is a flat 0, aka, dead.
It's exactly the same as your suggestion, except it gives the survivor 10s of leeway after a 2nd Endurance hit, instead of 0.5s.
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I was always under the impression that deep wound deactivates endurance from occuring again, as in you would have to mend before you could heal or apply an endurance effect again. Although this must have been because we never had a way to proc endurance this many times until now. Maybe deep wound should not allow endurance from occuring until fully mended, but then the problem of Legion occurs where they could prevent Dead Hard from working entirely. A better idea the community has thought of would be to make survivors affected by endurance have no collision, which would solve the bodyblocking issue while still making the anti-tunneling part useful.
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Nope, which is why I don't see an issue. I want to see the changes go to live so I can see how people play in a live match where they care about getting the objective done.
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I try and avoid tunneling at all times, yet I always fine a recently unhooked survivor blocking my path even though I was not near the hook and chasing a survivor not involved with unhooking. Funny how Endurance is weaponized in every match.
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