The Consequences of No Second Chance Perks in Endgame
We all know that Decisive Strike won't work in the endgame anymore, and it seems likely that Off The Record will be changed to not work in endgame either, but is everyone aware and approving of the consequences of that? Genuinely asking, not implying it's good or bad.
Right now, survivors really like to go for the save during endgame. This seems to be when a lot of the fun/fooling around/risk-taking happens for survivors, particularly high skill SWFs. With no DS/OTR in endgame, I see two possibilities:
- People stop trying to get saves in the endgame against semi-camping killers, because it usually doesn't work out. Upsides: Killers who feel like they've already lost aren't forced to continue playing a miserable match. Downsides: Killers end up with less hooks/kills/bloodpoints due to everyone just leaving.
- People still want to get their friends/allies out, so Borrowed Time stays meta (since it still works in endgame). If it isn't enough, people also bring Guardian/No One Left Behind to have the best chance of saving in endgame, making more perks necessary for that purpose. Upsides: Fewer lose-lose situations for killers, and fewer perk options for survivors dedicated to getting endgame saves (from killer perspective). Downsides: BT meta doesn't really change much, and fewer perk options for survivors dedicated to getting endgame saves (from survivor perspective).
How are people feeling about what no DS in endgame will mean for how the endgame plays out? Am I overthinking it, overlooking something, or are either of these outcomes something you welcome?
Comments
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It'll be fine. With the gates open, survivors are almost assured an escape, with DS they were basically guaranteed one.
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Deactivating DS during the end game is not good.
All it does is open up more complaints and reasoning for other perks to be deactivated, which will then be valid.
DS is deactivated why not xxxx perk
Terrible change.
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Survivors not lingering around in the trial for multiple minutes is a good thing, not a bad one. If survivors were inclined to consistently actually go for the save, it'd be one thing, but they often just dither about just out of reach.
As for the effect on the meta, I think it'll be a wait and see situation. It might keep BT in the meta, but only one perk remaining and the rest being changed is still a victory.
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Solo Queue already has people just leaving teammates for dead in the end game, because the incentive to save teammates and die for them just isn't there.
No DS in end game really won't change much besides the killer being able to force a single kill in a bad game.
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DS get deactivated in the EGC because you could litteraly end in a situation of someone getting downed and crawling to the door without the killer being able to pick him up.
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All this change did is make 99 gates even more important. If you open a gate too early you could just be killing your friend who had DS. If you wait to open the gate until that person is literally standing in front of it, they will make it out. But, in the event he gets pulled off hook and tunneled, he still has a chance if the gates clsoed.
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Let's say this change takes the good ol' "if you didn't escape, was it really a skilled play?" to a whole other troll level.
It gets deactivated when gates are powered, not at egc.
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Oh RIP, that perks actually useless now.
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Just like RBTs when EGC got implemented.
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Well survivor want for killer to go for the spread out 1€ hook playstyle which inevitably leads to 3 or 4 survivor being alive during egc.
At the current time against a good team the game could simply just end because any killer without a dedicated end game build has no chance to secure a kill vs BT, DS + ub and mutliple teammates bodyblocking while nearly every last one of them also runs dh.
Depending on the matchmaking fuckup and/or the picked killer survivor can dance circles around killer thanks to all the second chances.
Survivor don't want to get tunneled and camped but without that they still have their whole arsenal of weapons ready for egc.
So you can't have it both, no camping tunneling (soon tm) and all those second chance effects. So for the devs to really do something about camping and tunneling they have to give killer a realistic chance at the end of the game where those second chances hurt the most.
Edit: And yes i know this is expecting the devs to finally really do something against camping or tunneling but they have to star somewhere and these changes can still be overcome with coordination and teamwork.
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It is supposed to be an anti tunnel perk.
You aren't being tunneled in the end game.
Simple as that, DS in the end game was not fair.
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It'll be a good thing for all players if failure in the end game is just that. Without numerous chances players will be slightly more inclined to end the match immediately when the opportunity presents itself.
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Screenshot of my actual endgame gameplay:
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It's fine really most of the time their either overkill or not usable due to noed facecamp in endgame anyway. Should get ppl out the gate and on to the next quicker
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So its better if the survivor dies on hook cause there is no possiblity to get him out?
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no it's better for him to die on hook because if the killer get him through potential dead hard and BT, why would he get a free exit just by having ds ?
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The DS nerf is very contradictory to the general concept of the 'meta shake-up'. They buffed certain survivor perks and made a mini Borrowed Time base kit to disincentivize tunneling/camping, yet one of the most crutch perks to help survivor's against tunneling has been made useless in the end-game (sometimes when they need it most). Even more confusing, they buffed No One Left Behind (a perk that encourages survivors to go for saves in the end game), when all the killer has to do is wait out the new unhook endurance/haste effect and immediately down the survivor again with no risk of eating a DS. It just makes no sense to me when DS, at its core, is an anti-tunneling perk. It's not like it can even be abused because survivors can't really do anything whilst DS is active... so I don't understand their logic with this one.
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Maybe cause he used up his nearly his whole loadout, while killer just had to tunnel?
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DS had to be deactivated during endgame because some survivors liked to apply insult to injury at the exit gates.
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Right, so if a killer has chased you and only you for the majority of the game, but you've managed to survive until the gates are powered, you're suddenly not being tunneled? This BHVR logic does not compute.
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I don't run DS and I've been saved from the hook during EGC quite often. As a solo, I always play alone.
But it requires your teammates to feel taking hits for each others.
At this moment, it's up to your teammates to help. They have nothing else left: they save and protect or they leave.
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This game has far too many phases of "the survivors have zero fear of the killer."
Putting even ONE window of 20 seconds to open the exit gate, where survivors can't just Perk their way to immunity, is the absolute LEAST they could do.
If you're 99'ing gates or waiting in the exit zone to teabag, that should come with a real risk to both yourself and your team; not serve as a victory lap to rub it in on the other side.
Nobody would watch a horror movie series where the characters all survive, even the jerk character who everybody hated and went through elaborate measures just to make the audience hate them.
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if it took a WHOLE GAME for the killer to get you, and only you, you could at least give him that.
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Isn't it when the gates are powered? Yeah, sure, that situation can happen, but it doesn't always. Now the solution is to guarantee anyone hooked after completing the generators to a death sentence? It's funny how people are against a guaranteed escape but are ok with a guaranteed kill. And then there's the situation of BT "guaranteeing" escapes, so should BT also not work after the gates are powered?
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The big difference between bt and DS, it's the fact that DS is a slow agony of watching someone crawling away without being able to do anything against it.
When it's just BT you at least get to land a Hit.
it's also probably from the fact that when you're downed you're in the situation where "you lost" the chase, so you shouldn't be able to "still win" (yes I know in EGC it doesn't really work this way since the killer can just go for the unhooked survivor, but he has no other choice at this point if he want to get a kill)
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This is all from The Killer's perspective with no regard for the experience of the Survivor. Using your approach, the same argument can be made against BT. It's equally agonizing when the Survivor is close enough to the Hook that BT provides total protection, is it not? All you can do is watch them run into the gate and escape. I don't see a distinction between the stated goals.
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Just wanna say from personal experience, rescuing someone being camped during the end game from a non-one-shotty Killer without DS/BT and stuff is doable. Obviously less doable when we are dealing with active one-shotters like Bubba, but that seems like more of an issue with being able to camp with a one-shot attack than anything.
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That’s the thing, as you mentioned several second chance survivor perks will still be viable in the end game. Just not DS anymore. What is perhaps not considered by many to be second chance perks (when they really are) will still be usable, along with toolboxes and flashlights.
Post edited by GoshJosh on1 -
At least with BT the pill is easier to take, you hit the unhooked, he has endurance, bye.
But when you down him, usually it means you can hook him, and in end game collapse, near the exit gate, there's no way you could slug him to prevent ds, so if you pick him up he wins, if you let him on the ground, he wins.
it's just more frustrating than BT in EGC (wich can also be frustrating in some case, don't get me wrong)
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DS being absolutely gutted is terrible for Solo Q. It's a dead perk now. The nerf makes no sense, as it's been recently nerfed already. A 3 second stun is laughable.
Solo Q has been becoming miserable in the past year, The camping/tunneling has been so bad, that I just stopped playing regularly. What's the point? And now, when I do log in, I HAVE to equip Deliverance, DS, BT, and I get one perk slot for exhaustion. We equip these perks (and the other meta) in Solo Q because they're necessary if we ever want to actually play the match we loaded into. Solos escape so seldomly. and now this "hurrrrr meta-shake-up" tomfoolery will ensure Solos never get out (I don't believe OTR will go live as is just FYI. The whinging on the forums is too strong and BHVR always capitulates unless it's for Solo Q).
I think it's just ridiculous they made DS into a useless perk. And the most laughable part? It STILL has a skill check that can be missed! Why would a dead perk need a skill check? lol
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It's already not worth it to go for a save you need coordination it's kinda hard in solo Q, a good killer will down someone else it's an hook trade at best or will slug everyone if you really fail, most of the times people go open door and let you die it's just easier, only reason to save is probably WGLF stacks it's not DS
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I think you're just overthinking it, BT still exists and it'll give you 15 whole seconds of protection. I think that's enough time for you and your teammates to formulate some kinda plan to protect your buddies. The point of DS and new OTR is that they're supposed to help discourage tunnelling, not give you a graunteed escape at the end game. If they do change OTR to deactivate in the late game I honestly don't think it'll be a problem since end game rescue builds are basically a really good thing now if you wish to run it.
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Oh no, my free escape perk isn't a free escape anymore, game is unfair, devs killer biased confirmed.
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If that's the case then there are 3 other people that can help you, aren't they?
That's what I mean, play for 12 hooks as killer and distribute them "fairly" according to survivor wishes and you will end up with 4 people alive at end game.
You don't need 3-4 extra chances per person but should be able to work together.
And 4e isn't supposed to happen regularly in the first place just like 4k shouldn't be the norm. So if one or two die at end game it is totally okay, of course the survivor will still feel "robbed" of their earned escape but we have to remind everybody that this is a 4vs1 and not everybody of the 4 can win all the time. At least in the perfect scenario the killer. Gets close to 10 hooks and 2 kills so everybody got the maximum amount of action during the trial.
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Tunneling is an action. It doesn't change name whether the killer has other objectives or not, or whether it's the optimal play or not. Those situations aren't mutually exclusive. The very fact that they could not tunnel in endgame by going after the unhooker highlights the point (see what I did there?)
There's no need to be that insecure by making up bogus notions by playing around with words. If I'm in endgame and I decide my best bet is to camp and tunnel, I'm gonna do just that. I don't need to invent new names for those just to feel validated and better with myself.
Unironically, after the DS change, it's already been suggested that all other anti-tunnel mechanics deactivate in endgame. I'd have to dig through my comments to find the conversation. But yes, it didn't take long. In the end, it's a continuous hunt. One perk gets taken down and then switch to the next target.
Post edited by Bwsted on3 -
Here is my take on it as a Killer Main.
Firstly kills don't matter to me. If i 4k then great, if i 2k cool. if i 0k oh well i will have another game.
Having said this it is very annoying when you have outplayed survivors in end game to secure your kill/hook only to have it thrown in your face because you find out that the survivor was immortal anyway. During end game no one should be without fear.
Yeah i get it solo que can suck sometimes because some players just want a win and don't care about anything else but a lot of times in end game the team has come for the rescue, took hits properly to save the hooked player and everyone escaped and i find out they are solo que.
So personally i would like to see the second chance perks like DS (which is deactivating) and new off the record which should for sure deactivate end game but i don't think other perks like BT, DH or any exhaustion perks should deactivate end game.
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I mean, I've always thought BT should deactivate during the endgame alongside DS, and OTR during the end game has all the same problems as DS during the endgame, so it makes sense that that should be deactivated as well. The new basekit mini-BT I am willing to give a shot since it's pretty short, and off the top of my head, I can't really think of anything else that warrants being turned off during the end game.
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This is also a big slap to solo players. DS was totally fine, no change needed.
Not only they gutted perks endgame, they also reduced the stun to 3 seconds which is less than 2 seconds to gain distance from the killer due to survivor stun animation. Unusable.
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What is different about BT/Exhaustion Perks/basekit BT as compared to DS or OtR? Why should only those two perks/abilities be deactivated once gates are powered compared to others?
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It was a needed change to balance for killers, behavior staff did well, DS was too strong and used in a toxic manner, now killer can get his deserved kill without a crutch
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In the case of BT, it requires someone else bringing it for you (i.e. altruism); instead of an unhooked survivor being a self-sustaining tank in the end game (DS and OTR).
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Since they did this they should rework other perks like Rancor. If you argue that DS gives a free escape end-game, perks like Rancor shouldn't exist in the way that they are. Rework it! It's a free insta down + Mori with no hooks required AND it tells you where the survivor is.
Also nerf NOED so it can't give a free kill if a survivor is hooked by it. Deactivate it in those scenarios and revert its current (future) nerf.
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Note that Rancor 100% telegraphs itself to the person affected by it the whole game, so you very much have an opportunity to play around it.
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Well BT requires someone else to rescue with that perk. not always gonna happen, Exhaustion perks are very easy to get around (although i do believe that exhaustion shouldnt recover whilst your on the hook. I mean you have a meat hook through your shoulder your not exactly relaxed).
Also 15 seconds BT (5 if they don't bring the BT perk) can be waited out unless they are hooked right next to an exit gate. DS and OTR both have 1min timers (80 seconds for OtR) which allows them to cross map without any fear.
The point is these perks turns survivors into tanks that can do what they want with no fear.
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Anything that makes t-baggin survivors leave the trial sooner is a yes from me. There's nothing more irritating than seeing the survivor players hanging out at the exit gates just to BM. Can't stand seeing that, so if losing DS and OTR makes them leave more often then I'm all for it.
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The end game saves are pretty much a big part of the thrill and fun of the game. IT certainly isn't doing gens and if you believe half the killers on this forum, it isn't chases either.
If they want to kill that part by making it all risk and next to no reward then...
Good luck with your game.
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The reward is getting your mates out with you successfully, against difficult odds. Sounds like a high reward to me!
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It was definitely satisfying knowing you had the free out if you hit the skill check, we'll just have to see how it plays out.
It will require more teamwork to get someone out in the endgame but that raises that stakes and makes it more fun.
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There is possibility to get him out it just requires team work, take a hit for you buddy and both get out.
Some people are just defeatist from the get go.
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This is one game view I always find odd.
I got chased all game and interacted with the killer non stop making it exciting for its entirety but somehow that's bad and I hate it. That logic does not compute.
Losing DS in the endgame somehow makes this even less tolerable.
I guess some people just enjoy sitting on gens all game while others interact with the killer?
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