WHAT'S THE FIX TO CAMPING?
All right, let's try to have a thoughtful, organized, and productive discussion. We all know what camping is, and unless you're a player who likes to camp, it's generally seen as a problem.
Of those people who see it as a problem, there tend to be two camps. One camp is made of people who think, "It sucks, but that's human nature. The devs can't do anything about that." The other is, "The devs can fix it. If they make changes to the game that discourage--or even prevent--camping, camping will be a thing of the past." If you are someone who believes the devs can prevent/dissuade camping, please explain your ideas on how that can be done. I assume there will be more than one answer, since different Killers have different powers (Bubba camping is a different scenario than Trapper camping). So, what are your ideas? Please explain.
***IMPORTANT****
I know there are some of you who have nuanced opinions--or even totally different opinions. Some of you think, "If a person buys a game, they can do whatever they want. Your feelings about that aren't important." Others think, "Grow a thicker skin and move on to the next game." Others think, "It's a valid strategy--even if you don't like it." I understand you have your perspectives. However, the purpose of this thread is to hear from the people who believe the devs can change it to explain how. I'd rather stick to that topic than get lost in a sea of various opinions. Please keep that in mind. This is a very specific thread topic, and I want to understand those people's opinions and ideas.
Comments
-
Maybe reveal the killers aura to everyone with the same mechanic that is used to punish your chaser emblem for being too close to the hook for a certain amount of time.
11 -
You know, just remove hooks, let survivors respawn from four random location after 60 seconds.
9 -
There are two things that must be done:
1: Give more incentive for killers in general to leave the hook. This can come from perk design, light discouragements (IE, bloodpoint loss, aura reveal, survivors repairing faster) for lingering near the hook with no other survivors around, and from buffing chase mechanics; two of those are being doubled down on in the next patch, so we'll see how well that works out.
2: Nerf specific powers. I see people say all powers should be disabled within a certain radius, but that misses the point- most killers can be played around even if they're facecamping, and so disabling all powers just punishes people who camp at the endgame or who have reason to be in that area. Rather, they should be looking at the killers who facecamp most effectively and tweaking them instead. The biggest offender is Bubba, and I believe his chainsaw should stop dead when it hits Endurance so he can only force a trade instead of downing both the unhooked and the unhooker.
To a degree, camping is always going to exist. What the devs can and should do is give survivors tools to deal with it, not try and prevent killers from ever doing it to begin with; by and large countering facecamping against, say, a Trapper with no relevant perks and no traps in the vicinity isn't that hard. It's a problem when specific mechanics interact with it, and when survivors don't know that they're facing it straight away, so that's where we need to look to fix it.
If survivors have good tools and information to tackle camping, the absolute amount of camping killers will go down and the remaining ones won't be nearly as frustrating.
16 -
That could help, but Insidious Bubba is hidden from aura reading perks. Would you want that to change?
1 -
Slow sacrifice timer. The closer to hook, the more slow it goes, and completely stops within 12 meters. Also Insidious should work only 10 seconds (no more needed to use it midchase), then 10 seconds cooldown.
10 -
You gave a thoughtful answer. I'm going to reread it a couple of times to really think about your ideas.
2 -
Would that stack Camaraderie?
0 -
Finding ideas to punish camping is very easy, and people on these forums have already thought of a bunch of different ways to punish camping.
The problem is thinking of ways to compensating killers if camping were removed. A lot of killers camp because they feel it's quicker to find someone be staying near a hooked survivor, than it is to find someone by patrolling the generators. How are you going to fix that? How are you going to give confidence to killers, that if they leave a hooked survivor to walk around the map, that they will find another survivor?
And a lot of killers camp, because they feel like they need to tunnel that survivor out of the game, because there isn't enough time in the game to spread the hooks evenly between all 4 survivors. How are you going to fix that? Do you plan on forcing maps to be smaller? Do you plan on making it much easier for killers to find hidden survivors? Do you plan on changing maps so chases are forced to end earlier?
TD;LR Are you going to put effort into figuring out how to balance the game if camping were removed, or do you just want to punish the killer, and tell them to deal with it?
9 -
Insidious should have been changed years ago.
It's trash and only encourages boring playstyles
3 -
I have to disagree with 1. You could double the time to do a gen and people would still camp and tunnel. A lot. Incentive doesn't really stop people from going the easy route. Especially when the side with one person versing the group feels like a victim half the time.
This is 100% a stick over carrot scenario, and punishment for camping is the only way to really stop it in a substantial manner. I like the idea of the hook timer slowing and even downright stopping under specific conditions. Though the issue is some people will just camp from a distance (Huntress, Nurse ...) instead of going for more hooks, which would be the point.
If the killer fails to get into a chase within 30 seconds of hooking the timer stops. Survivors can sit on gens the whole time and the killer HAS to leave to chase. They also can't just sit somewhere and then defend a territory/hold a range blink because of this.
In the situation of 3 gens: When only 1 generator remains, the timer is merely slowed, not halted, as to prevent both sides from holding eachother hostage.
7 -
The two things are done in tandem, not one or the other.
We have absolutely no way of knowing why most players who camp do so, but I'm willing to bet the hardcore a-hole types who explicitly want to ruin the survivor's fun are the minority, and the majority are ones who just think it's the most tactical thing to do, or who flounder and struggle to keep the pressure up. Number 1 is designed for them, and number 2 is designed to let survivors combat those who do it for the sake of doing it.
Like I said, stopping camping is a fool's errand. It's not going to happen. Lessening the impact of camping is far more achievable and should be the direction the developers are looking in, and that'll look like incentives/disincentives, and very specific types of nerfs. That being said, slowing the hook timer isn't a bad idea as the light discouragement in suggestion 1, I'm not against it.
6 -
Just implement P-Head Cage Relocation to the base game hooks.
2 -
Camping isn't something that needs to be fixed.
Killers have every right to prevent an unhook just like survivors can prevent the hook. And there are plenty of situations where a killer has no reason to leave the area around the hook.
6 -
Did you read the last paragraph?
9 -
Like, the hooks have a static position as for now, and when the Killer hooks someone, it teleports somewhere else? Then, maybe disable it for EGC. I think when the Killers camp during EGC, it's OK. The game is pretty much over so... If the Survivors aren't going together to save, it's on them. (But I understand people who prefer to escape when it's like Bubba camping.)
3 -
Slowing down the sacrifice timer based on killer proximity won't be implemented again, it failed in a test, so there's no reason to propose it again.
The first idea that comes to mind is making hook timers longer. This won't prevent camping entirely, but if a killer decides to camp, he should only get a single survivor.
Another ideas is to give survivors more information. DEVs announced more HUD icons already, but not for this year.
Here's an example: if each survivor had a heartbeat (a beating heart icon)/repairing a gen/being chased (knife)/healing indicators, that would already be enough. If the hooked person hears heartbeat and other survivors are repairing gens or healing, that means the killer is camping. You can go on repairing gens to punish the camping killer. If someone suddenly stopped doing a gen, he probably went for the unhook, other survivors can continue repairing gens. If it's an insidious Bubba, it would still help, it would prevent all survivors rushing for the save and as soon as Bubba starts moving, the heart icon for the hooked survivor and for the unhooker will start beating, signaling other survivors about a camping killer.
5 -
Teleporting the hook survivor for any reason is a bad idea.
Hooked survivors are a form of pressure. Hooking a survivor in the middle of a 3 gen and guarding that area is valid. Not to mention the basement exists as well which is an area intentionally set up to be strong to defend against unhooks.
1 -
I have to disagree. I've given many jump-scares standing in a corner next to a generator. :)
2 -
That's a very interesting idea. In an effort to be balanced, I'd have to really think about it before offering more of an opinion.
0 -
Now you mention it, I see the issue about hooking someone on a three-gen area if the hook TP. It's a smart play IMO. I didn't even think about it.
0 -
Ok,that's definetely funny but i think we can agree that most people use this perk to camp hooked survivors
0 -
No killer's power should ever allow them to one-shot multiple survivors in a single action. No, I don't think this nerf requires any balancing on the survivor side. (It's not like all of that anti-Bubba meta is just going to become OP now...)
I think that would be a good start.
1 -
I don't know. Basement Bubba? That's one use for it but it's not much different from the usual camping.
IMHO going against such a play once in a while in fine, funny even sometimes. If it's more than that it may get old fast.
1 -
"I believe his chainsaw should stop dead when it hits Endurance so he can only force a trade instead of downing both the unhooked and the unhooker."
It's a bad fix unhooker don't have endurance, if he's smart he just going to hit unhooker before unhooked. The only way is to do like Artist and Dredge restrict his power near hooks
0 -
That's still a trade, which is the same as every other killer.
This change isn't meant to bring Bubba below the standard for camping, just bring him to it. If he wants to camp, he has to do the same as everyone else and go for a trade, giving the unhooked survivor time to reach a loop and start making plays. Combined with other changes to make camping less attractive, it'd do far more than just disabling his chainsaw near hooks, which would risk harming him unfairly in the endgame or in scenarios where survivors run him back towards the hook actively.
6 -
As mentioned above, I think both sides should have profits.
Survivors get bonus if certain condition is met. (killer certainly camping someone)
Killer gets new advantages for not to camp and go for other survivors.
For survivors:- 1. Killer can no longer grab healthy survivor trying to unhook.
Very simple solution. However, this might make certain killers have weak map pressure.
- 2. If killer is camping a hooked survivor (haven't thought of certain condition though), survivors get slowly increasing action speed bonus. (repair, heal, cleanse, bless, open exit gate)
- Starting from 1%, it will increase up to 5% over 60 seconds.
- If a hooked survivor gets rescued or unhooked himself, this effect no longer lasts.
- If a hooked survivor goes into 2nd hook state, all survivors get 5% permanent action speed bonus.
- If a survivor dies on his 1st hook, all survivors get additonal 5% permanent action speed bonus.
Quite complicated but I considered this solely because of increased repairing time.
For killer:- 1. Killer gets 5% haste effect for 10 seconds after he hooks a survivor.
- Survivors are inflicted with 5% action speed debuff for 10 seconds after killer hooks a survivor.
- This debuff increases by 1% (maximum of 17%) everytime killer hooks a survivor.
Simply from Hex: Devour Hope & Thantophobia. Maybe adding some effects from Fire Up could be also good.
- 2. If killer hooks 3 new survivors (simply 3 stacks of BBQ), all generators are blocked for 7 seconds.
- Once this deactivates, all generators start to regress at 100% speed.
- Hooking all survivors once grants additional generator block for 10 seconds.
- Once this activates, killer can see all survivors' auras for 3 seconds.
- Once this deactivates, all generators start to regress at 200% speed.
Idea from Grim Embrace. Might synergize well with the perk too.
Also, why not just give killer current BBQ's BP bonus basekit?
3 -
Out of curiosity, do you remember what the exact specifics were from that test? Meaning, what were the numerical factors being tested? If it was a very conservatively done test, then it's just a bad idea. If it was simply too powerful too soon, then a nerf might be an option. Without knowing what the specifics are, I can't give an honest opinion. If you don't remember the figures, that's fine. Do you remember if a streamer made a Youtube video about it? I'll look it up that way and try to gauge how the test went.
0 -
It's not "harming him unfairly" he would be like any other M1 killer who facecamp I don't see anything shocking about it, better than current bubba getting free kills
0 -
You would need to employ some pretty serious basegame changes in order to make camping and tunneling not viable, like increasing gen repair speed for every dead survivor by 10% or something along those lines and THEN rebalance the entire game so that killers are viable. A complete nightmare. Basic gaming sense and maybe basekit Kindred for SoloQ would have been enough in my opinion, but with the upcoming camping/tunneling buff, cranking out gens just won't work.
3 -
The "unfair" part refers to situations where he's not facecamping. Being around the hook in the endgame isn't facecamping, and survivors running directly towards the hook in chase because they know it'll disable your power definitely isn't facecamping, but they're both scenarios where he gets his power taken away with your change.
It's not a bad change for when he is facecamping, but it lacks the nuance to still be a good change when he isn't. If we focus more on not being able to down an unhooked survivor straight away, that's a change that only affects camping. It's a bit of a hit in the endgame, but it doesn't harm him mid-trial.
1 -
This is a lot of information (I mean that in a good way). I'm going to have to really mull it all over. Thanks for the response!
0 -
Yeah it will hurt him but his power is way too good near hooks it needs a change, he can down 2-3-4 people with one use and he doesn't care about BT, with your change he can still prevent a save if he facecamp properly, disable his instadown and he's just average at camping like any m1 killer, atleast bubba players will have a reason to leave the hook
0 -
It's very very simple. Not necessarily perfect, but I'd call it a 95% solution.
Remove hook grabs and hook interruptions. Once you get the prompt and press the key, you're locked in animation (same like when the killer picks up). You still get damage. So, the killer is still free to get the trade.
But they can't just stand at the hook and camp 2 people by playing the grab game, or force an additional person off gens, or simply get guaranteed kills via facecamp and passive slowdown.
That, and the hook timer per stage needs to be increased given the increase in gen time.
There. You can still camp strategically. It's the mindless standing at the hook that is nerfed.
2 -
Maybe it was before me, but how it was abused? I just wanted to know, maybe there's a way to fix it, because I don't know how it could be abused if killer is switching to unhooker/another survivor.
0 -
I unfortunately don’t think camping will ever get resolved.
2 -
Nothing about camping can be fixed without SWF abusing it
2 -
brillant,
and my fave
3 -
Theres a perk called kinship that counters camping. It’s free to everyone now as well.
0 -
I agree. This would fix that issue without making it impossible for a killer to do something.
1 -
Wow, that is a really great comment. I completely agree on all points. Well done!
4 -
Personally I think they should start by changing how BP are awarded for hooks/sacrifices. Currently i think you get a base total of 700pt for each hook and then a 1000pt bonus for a kill. I'd create a scale so that the hook values start small and increase with each hook on a given survivor, and in addition, the kill bonus is larger depending on the number of times you hooked that particular survivor. Emblems should function in a similar way to get iri devout and making it so the more times you hook a survivor, the better your odds are to pip or double pip.
I currently play mostly so that I get each survivor on death hook before I look to sacrifice one (it's a more interesting way to play for me, camping and tunneling are just freaking boring). This provides me the incentive to get away from the hook to let them save so I can cycle through my hooks as quickly as possible.
I don't think this alone is enough to really start a shift away from camping, but in conjunction with steering perk design towards Devour, MYC, and new Monstrous Shrine where being away from the hook is more beneficial, it can push things in the right direction. This is a better choice than changes to fundamental gameplay imo. Camping should still be an option (because that hook-saboing, butt-dancing, body-blocking, clicky boi Steve just has it coming sometimes), but it and tunneling should be the least rewarding style of play.
In summary: more effort should mean more rewards and vice-versa.
1 -
Campers don't care about BPs, skill or gameplay, let's be real. Take the most canonic example: camping bubba. There is no fun, no skill, no BPs in any scenario. Good teams will leave at least with one casualty, casual teams will die. No gameplay involved in any scenario. Only sad, angry kids are come to that. So, what do you want to heal with BPs?
Camping doesn't work against strong teams, so it's just scrapping from bottom, acknowledging incompetence.
The only way to somehow rid of it is to make it unviable for all teams, not only experienced ones.
3 -
Yeah, but it's one survivor on the hook, on in chase, so only two left. So you can down the on running around the hook, hook him while third one have to unhook the first, heal, therefore spend a lot of time.
I seriously don't understand how it affects normal gameplay. In my whole experience I don't remember many times when survivors go to next hook stage just by hanging (not counting suicides).
0 -
Force the killer to go for 12 hooks so survivors enjoy a 90% escape rate! Some real brainiacs in here
3 -
Maybe give a bp bonus, say 25%, when you hook each survivor for the first time? Perhaps tie it to a perk that shows distant survivor auras to further encourage leaving hooks? Nah, that's probably crazy....
Hook stage timer definitely needs to increase since gen times are increasing. It shouldn't be possible for all 3 remaining survivors to be pounding out gens as efficiently as possible, while the killer can still facecamp one to death and have time to mop up the rest.
Also need to give a slight increase to unhooking speed, or take back the free STBLF stacks on the PTB and instead further reduce the speed boost duration of injured survivors. This would accomplish the same goal of weakening hold W without buffing camping.
Also DS has been nerfed enough already and shouldn't have been touched again. It's going to be tunnel city when the update drops.
0 -
Staying indoors.
1 -
I think the best they could do would be a survivor perk that somehow penalizes it. So that way killers who like to camp still can, but they run the risk of doing it to a survivor who has a particular perk equipped. This is off the top of my head so hasn't been thought through, but it could be like if they're within a certain distance of the hook there's a small gen speed increase, or hook timer slows, or their hex totem lights up for survivors. I don't know, just throwing ideas out.
Personally, I don't get camped enough for it to bother me. But it seems to be one of the biggest game complaints so having a counter seems inevitable, but you don't want that counter to take away a killer's choice. Just make it less safe.
0 -
I think "camping" is an ambiguous word that can mean either "Face camping" which is actually standing in place defending a hook or so called "proxy camping" which is just generally defending a section of the map that includes a hook in it.
- Face Camping is something the devs have acknowledged as something they want to discourage since it's not that exciting for everybody involved, and they've experimented with trying to find a system to steer killers to be more proactive but haven't found one that both encourages killers to seek out survivors but that doesn't also break something else. So the problem isn't a lack of general interest in encouraging more proactive playstyles, it's finding an actual practical detailed solution.
- Proxy Camping on the other hand isn't a problem, other than in the minds of sore losers maybe? It's just zone defense, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it and no particular reason the game needs to "address proxy camping".
4 -
id say speed up the dying on hook past a certain distance but freeze it if inside said distance. Just far enough where an unhook is possible but can still be punished.
0 -
Some people don't care about winning they just want to ruin that one persons experience for the day.
2
