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all this time has passed...
... and people still think that SWF isn't the main issue of the game. whenever i look at the forum i see always the same things: survivors who complain about killers being buffed/tunneling/camping/etc etc and killers complain about survivors who genrush/abuse 2nd chances perks/bully squads with flashlights/etc etc. Both problems have something in common: swf. you are probably wondering how... well, killers wouldn't probably feel the need to play in certain (unfunny) way if swf wouldn't exist (mainly due to the HUGE amount of toxicity and disadvantages that they must endure when aganist those kind of teams) and survivors would have probably be buffed accordingly since swf wouldn't screw up the statistics... imo SWF shouldn't be in the game (or to be more precise... it should be available ONLY in custom matches)
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Please.
Killers said they will never tunnel/camp if survivors could not have second chance perks.
Killers said they will never tunnel/camp if gens took longer to finish.
Now all survivor meta destroyed and generators have really long time to finish with anti-gen builds. But killers are still camping and tunnelling.
If x happens the killers will stop camp/tunnel seems to me just an excuse.
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All this time has passed and Killers are still blaming their own mistakes on SWFs.
That "Killers wouldn't probably feel the need to play in certain (unfunny) way" is as wrong as it can be. If anything, this Patch shows that it will continue.
Killers got a MASSIVE Buff and they are still stacking 4 Slowdown-Perks and are still camping and tunneling. This Patch shows that the respective things need to change and that improving the time of Killer does not mean that they will stop using those "strategies".
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The thread itself is not constructive because there's been a million of them.
1. SWF does not equal skilled team
2. SWF does not equal toxic
3. Removing SWF would literally kill the game as many survivors would simply stop playing because playing this game without friends is dreadful
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you are missing the point... 2nd chances perks COULD be fine IF survivors aren't in a swf imo, but we aren't talking about 2nd chances perks/gen defense perks, we are talking about WHY those things are abused literally in most games
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Sure.
SWF will never be removed.
Toxicity wouldn't be removed if it was.
Killers who didn't have to play unfun to win still would, because now it's way easier and they like winning.
Satisfied?
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because it didn't changed NOTHING, that's why... this change only worsened the solo survivor experience while SWF won't have troubles in the slightest... quite the contrary, with the slowdown perks nerfed into the ground they'll have an easier time (at least those who know how to play efficiently)
not true because i'm explaining why the game is in this state imo:
1 SWF is busted, you like it or not this is the absolute truth (even the devs admitted this with their "statistics")
2 most of them are toxic (but here i'm talking about personal experience since in all my 2500 hours i've faced only 6 swf teams that were chill or they were memeing around, everyone else was a SWEATY and toxic tryharders)
3 you don't have any proofs about it and as i said before solo survivor should be buffed accordingly, in that way everyone can have fun and who want to play with his friends can still do it in a custom match...
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unfortunately i know that swf will never be removed and this is the reason why i'll probably play something else since i personally consider the time spend on dbd not worth anymore due to the imbalance and toxicity of this game. regarding the killer playing unfun in order to get more wins then the problem should be founded in the game mechanics... the devs are the ones that should fix those problems since they are present from the birth of the game (they had a lot of times to come up with something... yet they didn't nothing if not put band aid fixes as perks)
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Lmao dude are you serious.
1. SWF is not inherently busted. If I grab 3 of my friends who all have less than 100 hours in the game, even with my telling them exactly what to do and where the killer is, their skill and inability to loop won't make any of that info useful
2. Just like you said for my #3, you have no proof of that statement and it's literally just anecdotal and biased. "Most of them are toxic". How do you know? How do you even know which ones are SWF and which aren't because I've had killers accuse me of being in a SWF while playing solo because I'm just a good player who knows how to coordinate. Your statement reeks of personal bias and is anecdotal at best
#3 I don't need proof of this statement because you can literally ask the community or just read up on old threads. Trust me, you're not original around here. People have been making "delete SWF threads for YEARS in this forum and they are always met with a wave of backlash because a large amount of the playerbase just wants to enjoy the game with their friends. Prior to SWF being added, people would just leave lobbies over and over until they got in one with their friend
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Also even though it wasn't addressed to me, you're on something if you genuinely believe only solo players were affected by these changes and somehow SWF players magically aren't affected by increased gen times
Plus you failed to mention that while some gen regression perks were nerfed, multiple perks were massively buffed to take their place essentially keeping the meta the same
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Lots of assumptions there. Game is as easy as its ever been for killers. It takes skill to lose a match atm. Lots of people still tunneling & camping. Because a good chunk of player base only knows that kind of playstyle. Its easy and it gets some results. Even if its boring af and by all accounts there is no need to do it in this meta. I am a pure killer main but my opinion of the average killer in this game is pretty damn low.
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SWF is inherently busted in some forms, not just looping. It renders some killers powers almost useless (ghost face, pig stealth, myers stealth, Trappers traps,) in a SWF 90% of the game you have info on where the killer is and you can almost always have some one on gens with no risk . You can organize body blocks mid chase and overall are just more efficient.
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I don't deny that being in a SWF makes coordination easier.
But if you read what OP said, they're making hella false claims and assumptions that need to be corrected. And that's not even getting into the nuances of a 2 person vs 3 person vs 4 person SWF and how the experience differs for all 3 of those scenarios
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1 it is and there were already a ton of examples that were wrote in this forum... but since you refuse to see the reality... just a couple of examples will take down your idea: if you can warn your friends that you are looping the killer in a certain area that's close to their position, they'll keep doing generators despite they heard the TR of the killer... completely different matter if everyone is a solo survivor since you don't knnow what the killer is doing (could be patrolling gens or going directly in your direction, you won't know it untill you'll see him), or when you do a save and you have BT (it's true that now bt is basekit, but someone can wait those 5 seconds then hitting the unhooked survivor), you tell to your friend to tank the hit and thanks to this neither you or your friend were downed...
2 as i said here it's more about personal experience, and as i said before my experience with SWF is generally bad, i never said that this is the absolute truth, but it is in my case/experience... then if you have met chill swf then good for you, you are more lucky than me
3 you won't erased at all that feature, it's always available in custom matches you know? 😏
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Yeah I’m not listen to someone that was defending bubba camping at five gens.
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not true at all tbh... 1st of all only 10 seconds won't change much from before... before the rework of the perks all killer slowdown perks were more powerful than the actual gen defense perks... corruption lasted more time and didn't vanished if someone was downed like now, ruin was a lot better than now (but still risky), pop was 25% of regress of a generator and not based on the current progress on that gen and scourge hooks gave also good informations and had a synegry with DMS... now what? call of brine? just tap the gen and you'll deny his effect... overcharge? people who are used to hit great skillchecks won't even be bothered by that perk... those changes will affect only the average/low mmr while high mmr will have a though time, worse than before... the only buff that i could consider worth to mention was the cooldown removal from jolt...
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Your not wrong. I don't think SWFS are inherently toxic, its alo pretty damn obvious that SWFS are here to stay and it would be dumb to remove them. On my first read of your comment I don't think I fully understood what you were saying so that's my bad. The one thing I'll say is BHVR is In a unfortunate situation with having to balance SWF and solo. I'm almost convinced they can't ever exist In harmony and balance
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i don't remember that i've defended such gameplay... but you aren't entitled to decide for how others play the game, if someone want camp at 5 gen he can be free to do it (i just found it boring personally speaking)
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really? then why back in the 2019 i could afford to play chill and have fun while now it's a sweatfest evey match done? just an example...
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Thats a you problem, im vibing almost all games. Maybe you started relying on some crutches like tunneling/camping and became worse at the game. I dont know you, i cant say
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1st of all tunneling and camping are one of the best strategies that a killer can pull out if he knows how to do it properly. In my case I didn't felt a single time the need to tunnel and camp in that time when the old ruin was still alive, matches were a lot more fun and people who were good actually deserved to escape, not to mention that the toxicity despite it was present it was once every 20 matches, different matter if now, even you try to play "fair"...
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bait
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Not bait, at all. Facts with a lot of concrete proofs
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SWF is definitely the real issue behind balancing but probably it has nothing to do with anything else.
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Yeah! Survivors should only get one hook state, it should take 5 minutes to do one generator and No Mither should be base kit minus being able to pick yourself up and minus the quieter grunts of pain. Oh and no perks. They're just crutches. Killers should get 10 perk slots instead. and they should move 20% faster too, and have basekit ebony mori. No items for survivors either. Too op!
Apparently this is the game some people want. Surprised it hasn't been made yet.
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people that wanna play with their friends is not a problem. We can play together in every online game but apparently it's a problem in DBD.
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If survivors start the game hanging on the hook killers will stop tunneling :D Let us face it, tunneling and camping (at 5 gens) will never stop. Never. These people who tunnel at 5 gens only have their 4k in mind. Guess they need it to feel validated and to feed their own small ego
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Those three things are true, but on the flip side there is a balance gap between solo and swf survivors where swf survivors have a significantly higher escape rate because solos don’t have the communication benefit. That’s why the devs announced those HUD changes in January to give solo survivors more information and help level that playing field. Hopefully those just got put on hold because of all the other changes this year and eventually they’ll get added.
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Yes, I remember how my lightborn, mad grit, distressing, and dying light were ALL slowdowns
Yeah, ik, weird, but we exist
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Honestly, I appreciate every Killer who is not just running 4 Slowdowns. And if it is a Build with 4 strong Perks with strong Add Ons on top, I dont mind it, everything is better than seeing Call of Brine, Pain Resonance, Thanatophobia and Deadlock on each Killer.
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Yeah its a crutch because its so effective ... Dont need to be good at chase, pressure, mindgame, whatever, if you bank on just downing the first survivor you find and hope the rest of the team throws themselves at you or make mistakes.
Does it product results? Sure. Is it the strongest arsenal in the killers kit? Undoubtedly. Have you become a worse killer than you were before because you kept relying on a strong tactic and ignored the rest for so long? Dunno, i dont know you, i obviously cant say. But i would bet yeah, your reliance on crutches is why you are struggling now. You are getting 'sweatfests' everytime because you dont belong in your mmr.
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No need for slowdowns when games end at 5 gens 😎 No but seriously i stopped running a single slow down and gen speeds still feel fine.
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Obviously its a problem in dbd, information isnt deliberately hidden in other games like in dbd. SWF is worth like 4 extra info perks per person.
A better example would be people playing among us and going yeah the imposter is blue, my friend was on discord and he told me. Obviously thats unfair because they werent supposed to have that information.
How long have you played this game Nathan? Can you not grasp something this basic?
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The only thing that's a swiffer problem there is bully squads, and -maybe- killer buffs. Everything else has nothing to do with swiffer teams.
Second chance perks aren't a problem, period, because the game is designed to give survivors THREE chances. You aren't supposed to be able to kill a survivor in one down. None of the associated perks do ANYTHING if the killer doesn't hardcore faceplant into it. The only ones that can be argued about are the bodyblocking potential of BT/OTR and Dead Hard, but the latter has already been nerfed down to a point where it might need to be re-evaluated as a problem.
Especially the hate against DS is a clear indicator some killers just want a one-down, extremely easy game.
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be serious or don't wrote anything at all...
technically it is because that game wasn't thinked with SWF in mind... but as i said before it's not that you can't play with your friends anymore, it will be limited only to custom matches... i don't get why people become so upset when you mention that regular matches shouldn't have that feature... ah yes, because usually they'll abuse it in one way or another probably...
it won't stop cause it's one of the best strategies that a killer can do in certain situations... i doubt that camping and tunneling would be so popular if it would be counterproductive for the killer, the devs should gave incentives to leave the hook and not to camp, instead they erased the few things that serve that purpose (bbq bonus bp erased, pain resonance informations lost and pop reduced to a meme perk)
lmao, if you say so... guess you are here to watch every match that i did then... fine then, i'll tell you a little anedocte: in the past (1 year ago) i tried to do an experiment, i did 2 matches aganist the same team of survivor, in the same map and with the same killer and addons... the difference between those 2 matches were the playstyle, the 1st one i didn't camped or tunneled, yet my chases were quickly, but that wasn't enough anyway to keep their pace (2 survivors were always on gens if you consider that one of them was always on the hook and the other one being chased/rescuing the hooked survivor)... the match ended with a 0/4. the 2nd i tunneled from the start and guess what? i won. now you can say that tunneling and camping are boring and unfunny to go aganist, i won't deny that and i will probably agree with you, but don't a hypocrite and say that it won't require skill or that will make you a worse killer because this is simply false (after all the killer's goal is to kill and this is the quickest way to achieve your goal, not to mention that certain maps will literally force you to play mean despite you won't do it for the simple fact that they are too much safe or you have a killer without a valid antiloop power). only survivor main will tell you this because they want force you to play by their rules
when someone will go full white knight and defend something that even him/her will probably know that's broken for various reasons this is what happen. denying that SWF give benefits when EVEN the devs aknowledge that is simply being too much biased
i strongly disagree, this game would be more easier to balance (i'm not saying that would be easy since it's almost impossible to balance an asymmetrical game, but easier than now for sure) if SWF wouldn't be available in normal matches.
so for you the previous dead hard wasn't a problem (i would say even the new one since the infamous auto dead hard is still present) despite everyone complained about that perk, borrowed time being exploited for tanking a hit that was deserved to someone else wasn't (isn't) a problem, completely recover from the dying state when you did a bad play alongside with your team isn't a problem, the automatic healing and the speed boost that you get once the gens are done isn't a problem, the fact that you can blind the killer when he caught someone into a locker isn't a problem, people that exploit boil over with purple toolboxes (just for precaution) with the hook offerings alongside maps like rpd or badham isn't a problem... yep definetely not a problem winning 100th times in order to hooking someone/winning a match as killer (add that all this stuff it's even more awful when you are aganist a sweaty SWF and you'll get the picture of why i'm aganist that feature)
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but eh, i guess i'm just wasting my efforts if i want a game fair for both sides and that i actually proved with valid examples my thoughts.
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As long as such important elements to the game are heavily rng dependent, it will never be fair for both sides. There are so many games I should have gotten a 4k but rng robbed me, and vice versa; games I had no business winning, but my prayers to RNGesus came through.
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i strongly disagree, this game would be more easier to balance (i'm not saying that would be easy since it's almost impossible to balance an asymmetrical game, but easier than now for sure) if SWF wouldn't be available in normal matches.
You mentioned in your opening post:
whenever i look at the forum i see always the same things: survivors who complain about killers being buffed/tunneling/camping/etc etc and killers complain about survivors who genrush/abuse 2nd chances perks/bully squads with flashlights/etc etc. Both problems have something in common: swf.
I point out that that is incorrect. Tunnelling and camping have NOTHING to do with swiffers. Genrush and second chance perks have NOTHING to do with swiffers. The link with killer buffs is strenuous. The only thing that's properly a swiffer problem is bully squads.
And then we get to second chance perks:
so for you the previous dead hard wasn't a problem
Which is already a misreading of my post, since I mention, specifically:
The only ones that can be argued about are the bodyblocking potential of BT/OTR and Dead Hard
I also don't see the relevance in talking about old Dead Hard because it's no longer in the game, and as incompetent as BHVR may seem in their balance decisions, I am pretty confident they are not stupid enough to put it back in.
borrowed time being exploited for tanking a hit that was deserved to someone else wasn't (isn't) a problem
Again, I specifically mention bodyblocking potential of BT/OTR as being arguable problems. And I, myself, have in fact argued for them being problems in the past. Especially OTR, which I believe is less healthy for the game than DS was.
completely recover from the dying state when you did a bad play alongside with your team isn't a problem
The killer has to leave you alone for an extended period of time to enable this perk to trigger once and never again, and it still takes that survivor out of commission for an equally long time. UB is not a problem. Exponential has too many hooks and eyes to be a problem. The only one you could try to argue for is Soul Guard, but that requires an active hex to work.
the automatic healing and the speed boost that you get once the gens are done isn't a problem
Adrenaline fires once, once all gens are done. How is that a swiffer problem, exactly?
the fact that you can blind the killer when he caught someone into a locker isn't a problem
Not a perk, let alone a second chance perk.
people that exploit boil over with purple toolboxes, with the hook offerings alongside maps like rpd or badham isn't a problem...
None of this is second chance perks.
yep definetely not a problem winning 100th times in order to hooking someone/winning a match as killer (add that all this stuff it's even more awful when you are aganist a sweaty SWF and you'll get the picture of why i'm aganist that feature)
You have argued the completely wrong thing here. I never argued in favour of bully tactics. You are replying here to something I said about second chance perks and you completely switched tracks into an all out rant about bully tactics and survivors just having perks in general.
I get that you're frustrated, but you're not arguing properly. You can't counter 'second chance perks aren't a problem' with 'Flashlight saves are a problem'. That doesn't suddenly make second chance perks a problem.
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Didn't you know that what killers truly want is actual fair balance? Did you know they only play scummy because they're forced to by bad, bad, evil OP survivors?
Killers would NEVER abuse being the power ro... oh wait😨
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Well tunneling is just as strong as before. Camping is even stronger. Make sure gens don't get done is very important for killers or they lose the game. You can't blame killers for how the game is set up from BHVR. Same as killers could not blame survivors when they "gen rushed" out game after game before. You also can't expect either killers or survivors to change strategies and perks for the sake of the other side. BHVR give both sides the tools they have and also say it's fine to do as they please with it.
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Tell that to the survivors who bring in multiple Prove Thyselfs and toolboxes, neither of which were touched in this update.
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You're not gonna get through to them. I've been chewed up trying to argue that the game is still survivor sided. After all this time, they still don't get it. All you have to do to see what I talk about is play Pig with no slowdowns or something stupid like that, or even a serious build on a mid tier killer, and you will get games where you got 2-3 hooks before the gens are all done because (ding ding ding) you didn't camp or tunnel.
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I’ve been playing since fall of 2019 but I don’t know what that has to do with anything.
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No you just don’t want SWF in DBD.
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It was probably a good thing toolboxes or prove thyself weren’t nerfed. Otherwise survivors wouldn’t have anything to speed up gens.
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It has to do with your inability to grasp the basics of basics. Its expected from a beginner, some one a bit more experienced has to delude themselves to not understand the basics.
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Can you imagine if SWF was never even a thing?? That would be unhealthy.
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Thats a different topic altogether. Lets take the baby steps first where you accept to yourself that playing with friends in this game is inherently different from playing with friends in other games and comes with great benefits and then we can discuss whether or not playing with friends is healthy for the game. Which i agree that it is.
Cmon Nathan, baby steps, i want to hear it from your mouth. Go ahead buddy.
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Playing with friends on DBD is the same as playing with friends on other games, this is online gaming we’re talking about…
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Ah, we are back to deluding ourselves are we? You can play stupid if you want but count me out mate, have a nice day.
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