Should Killers Have To Play a Near Perfect Game to Get a 4K?
Ok I had this discussion with a friend who is a killer main, He Said Killers Have to play a near perfect game to get a 4k (Pre 6.1 patch - which all can agree is killer sided).
I had said, "Well isn't that the way it should be?". OFC this varies with different lvls of Skill/MMR etc. But, As PVP game with a 4v1 set-up.. Wouldn't it be logical that If 1 survivor does extremely well they should be rewarded? That As Killer You have the strength equal to 4 players and that a "Near perfect Game" should be required to get a 4k?
I Just feel that many killer mains have taken the "challenge" away from being a good killer when they argue against it..
So i'm opening the discussion and would love to hear everyone's opinions on it... Should Killers Have to play a near perfect game to get a 4k? Or Is that really asking too much?
Comments
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You do not need to play a perfect game to get a 4k. All you need to do is tunnel someone out early and play end game properly and you should get at least 2 kills from that. The other half is team and map dependent to be fair.
You only need to play a perfect game if you 12 hook, but if you are 12 hooking, the survivors are WAY below your level to the point where a perfect game is relatively easy to play out.
That being said, from a pure theoretical point of view, I absolutely agree with you. I just feel in practice there are a lot of factors that make DBD far from an ideal experience.
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People who say they played “near perfectly” usually made a magnitude of mistakes. If you play a weak killer those mistakes costs you more. You can’t play with a weak play style and expect the same results with someone like Spirit. If you play Hag odds are you’re going to do worse than an Oni.
Now to your argument if a survivor does play near perfectly theoretically then yea they are going to win even if the killer plays near perfectly. But chasing in DBD is all about 50/50’s. Weather they vault the window or not, weather you double back, moonwalk, if the survivor can predict all of these they will win (if they’re team is actually good and does gens).
With all this in mind imo killers should not have to play near perfectly, because most players can’t. If that were the case most people would lose matches which is not the case since the kill rate was a 2K. An even amount, so your friend’s point is completely proven wrong even by statistics. While he is right I’m theory in practice it’s just plain wrong. You’re point I also disagree with because most people in almost any game(s) are casuals. While you should not always balance around casuals you do have to keep in mind as a dev or business what your target demographic is. So personally while I feel like killers shouldn’t just be rewarded 4K’s without trying I don’t think having them play like Otz anaylizing every possibility a survivor will do is gonna be fun. People just wanna chill, DBD is a party game in all honestly.
Bascially I think it should be in the middle. Not too easy not comp 1 million $ tournament. Since the devs did state it should be a “Power Role” (even thought SWF were always stronger in most cases) maybe it should be skewed slightly to the casual side.
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Your friend lied to you, you dont have to play perfectly to get a 4k.
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Should? Yes. Need? Right now, clearly not.
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Perhaps you should, but you certainly don't need to.
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He Plays Killer Respectfully I.E. He doesn't Facecamp Or Tunnel unless prompted by the survivors themselves. The point to the post is.. Should Killers HAVE to play a perfect game to get a 4k? or is that asking too much.. From the sounds of it.. The best response I got is "killers just need a cheap way to play to get 4ks"
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My counter is why should survivor be "fun," but killer be "challenging"? Why can't both be fun? The primary problem with this game is people take it too seriously. Even post-patch (which might have been killer sided but was that a bad thing? I don't think so), I escape around 60% of the time. Close to 2 out of every three matches. It might be even higher if my teammates stopped letting themselves die on the first hook. And to be clear, I do not play even near perfect. I suck at looping. If a killer finds me, they will down me pretty quickly. Even so, I play with no stress and a decent escape percentage. I don't know why so many seek to deny the same for killers.
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I'm play both sides about equally, and my survivor play is split between solo and a SWF group, for reference.
The problem pre-patch was that, if you were playing killer at a high skill level against survivors who were also at a high skill level, all it took a lot of the time was one single mistake -- taking the wrong chase for a little too long, or whiffing on what could have been a crucial down, for example -- and that was enough to cost you the match. Whereas the survivors you were up against could make multiple mistakes -- get outplayed at a loop, or three-gen themselves, or simply go down too easily in a chase -- and 4-person escapes on their part were still possible, and often achievable. The idea, in theory, would be that BOTH sides would need to play "near perfectly" to achieve the optimal result -- either a 4K or a 4-out -- but that wasn't the case prior to the patch, IMO.
Ideally, whoever plays better -- even if it's not "near perfect" -- should come out on top in a contest, and sometimes that could be a 4K or a 4-out, even if that side of the equation could have played better than they did. The difference pre-patch to post-patch for me has been that I think BOTH sides are now getting punished for less-than-optimal gameplay and/or mistakes, where it wasn't the case before. I had rounds as killer where, due to map RNG, items (multiple BNP Commodius toolboxes), killer I was playing, etc., I felt like I was set up to lose no matter how well I played or how many mistakes the survivors made. In contrast, as survivor, I or my group had plenty of matches where I/we made multiple mistakes, the killer probably outplayed us, but we still all managed to escape (or would get 3 out with one unlucky one dead). That hasn't been the case since the update, which I think has forced myself, at least, to focus much harder as survivor than I did before (and more akin to how much I need to focus as killer when the team I'm up against is really good).
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I don't get it, are you saying 4k is something special when difference is just hatch escape for 99% of time?
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I mean if he plays respectfully he is by definition not playing perfectly. But even then no, you can get stomped whole game and snowball at the end still. I guess really depends on the killer though. When playing blight/nurse vs the average survivors, not even close to necesary
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you are escaping because MMR has been shut off and there's a flood of new killers
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Killers do have to play near perfect games to get 4k. A 4k is 4 Iri emblems. Getting 2 iri's and 2 golds isn't a 4k, and it's pretty common.
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It sounds like a bunch of killer mains defending the new update as of right now. Being the killer is supposed to be challenging because its 4v1.. That being said being face camped or tunneled isn't very "fun" but tends to be a common strat.. and as many of you have mentioned it's common to getting a 4k. I think everyone can agree the hatch being held hostage by a slugged survivor is 100% in favor of the killer so the argument that hatch is survivor sided is moot. And it's not wrong to play respectfully.. after the most recent patch thou i've seen almost zero pity hatches and killers slapping survivors who "set the item down" as an offering.. I feel like this update has really taken the "respect" out of the game.. The fact that MMR has basically been shut off is also a major factor that most people aren't considering.. Killers who can't even lunge properly are supposed to lose because its a basic function as killer and should be known how to do. Lately i've seen many killers with a single yellow perk holding their own against red rank SWF's because the base kit for killers is really that OP. I'm not saying that playing killer is or wasn't difficult but it is wrong to expect them to play near perfect in order to get a 4k against high MMR survivors? I really think that's the major issue.. Every killer feels like they "lost" with just a 2k or 1k and everyone 2nd state.. and in all honesty the killers get fantastic scores even when they 2nd everyone and the survivors escape.. It's that sense of "I won" that isnt there when they get DS'd at an exit gate even if they literally outscore everyone... If you ask me I think a killer should have to play a near perfect game to beat a high MMR group of survivors and its not asking too much.. The trophies and high value "rewards" of a 4k should be a difficult thing to obtain otherwise what good is the claim to being a "good killer" if all you do is resort to dirty strats and poor sportsmanship? It's 4v1 You should always expect a challenge and it's not a reach to say that a near perfect game should be part of that.
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Lol, "But I set my item down!" They scream as I carry them to the hook.
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As a survivor it's near impossible to overcome when just 1 survivor DC's early or dies from early mistakes/stupidity... The survivors role is almost imperative on the help of other survivors.. So The strength of the survivor comes from the strength of the group as a whole. Not only are they weaker but they depend on each other as a means of "winning". If 1 survivor outmatches a killer that shouldn't mean that every survivor deserves a nerf.. The killer made a poor choice on which survivor to target. I've had numerous matches where survivors try to goat me into chases and i've ignored them and done perfectly well because I focused on my objectives instead of letting my emotions get the better of me and rage on a single chase. If you ask me many killers don't consider this and are victimized by certain survivors because they continue to commit to a chase they should've otherwise abandoned and take no accountability for their own error. That being said OFC certain things for survivors are OP esp the new "off the record" rework.. which in my opinion is trash.
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You need a near perfect game to 4k while playing nice, if you need a near perfect game to 4k 24/7 no matter what playstyle that would be bad design
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my point isnt about the killer being "required" to show any respect.. it's the fact that the lack of respect has almost vanished after this update... And as far as i'm concerned.. when i'm a survivor... "I don't want your pity"..
But the respect has almost vanished and it goes to show that many killers are clearly taking advantage of the update being 100% in their favor with little to no respect. T-bags aside
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There’s always that one person who gets away in most horror movies. Just saying
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Should a survivor have to play a 'perfect game' to escape?
And I disagree that killers have it so easy. I've just had three Dredge games in a row (usually do well as Dredge) which were all 0K's, gens flying like mad (10 extra seconds does nothing) loop after pallet after loop after pallet (0.3s off attack cooldowns doesn't stop a survivor reach the next loop), Dead Hards that do still exist (extra health states on top of basekit BT)
Even camping (once the exits were open and I wanted my obsession kill for my challenge) which is supposed to be this OP, uncounterable, toxic behaviour, was easily countered by one healthy survivor who faked a hook grab (lol 50/50 RNG so broken, killers get easy free wins when they camp lolololol) and secured the save at end game.
This patch is not some overly killer sided broken mess, it's basically the same as it was before. The only difference is all the low skilled solo survivors giving up and having a tantrum because they refuse to adapt.
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so you openly admit to face camping and trying to grab directly off the hook. with Dredge who literally is the most OP killer next to artist.. but say nothing about what build you were running.. and what mistakes you made.. it sounds like you committed to chase too hard and completely ignored defending objectives with a killer who can literally map control better than any killer... And it's every survivors fault that you make mistakes? I mean if you can't even camp that really says alot about your skill level.. because I watched my 8 yr old nephew face camp a 4k last night lmao.
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Your crediblity gets tossed away when you start calling anyone who disagrees with you a "killer main".
It's clear your initial question was a loaded one -- you already had a preconceived answer to your question in mind, asked said question to get reinforcement of your opinion, and no matter what anyone says in response, whether it's well-reasoned or not, you're probably going to ignore it and label them instead, since their opinion or experience doesn't match what YOU think the correct answer should be.
That's not looking for a healthy discussion, but affirmation. There's a big difference there. One is constructive, the other is making noise for the sake of noise.
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You don't need to play perfect, you just need to play savvy.
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What was true was that at the highest level, a killer doing no mistake could lose.
The only way to win was for survivor to do mistakes.
At the highest level.
That doesn't concern "any" of us.
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Because I think a killer should have to play a near perfect game.. I literally said I thought they should even in my initial statement which was between me and my friend who's a killer main. asking to discuss it doesnt mean i dont hold my own opinion.
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At least that would fit with the slasher stereotype that one person almost always escapes.
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And people -- myself included -- have said that they don't need to be "near perfect", anymore than survivors should have to play "near-perfect" to escape. I also referenced how much easier it was (and frankly still is, though not as much as before) to make multiple mistakes as a survivor and still end up escaping, or even 4-outing your opponent. Since you said that many responses in this thread, presumably ones that don't mirror your own are, "... a bunch of killer mains defending the new update as of right now", then that seems to speak to your not wanting an actual discussion where people might disagree with you, but an affirmation of your position.
Does my disagreement with some -- emphasis on "some" -- of what you've stated make me a "killer main" who never plays survivor then?
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I said it sounds like a bunch of killer mains are defending the new update. not everyone is a killer main who doesnt agree with me. I never said that, so dont say that I did because I didn't...
I did however say that survivors are dependant on others as a means of survival.. and that being said there should be more leeway in the mistake department as 1 survivor can easily destroy the game for all survivors. and that it is in fact balanced as such because survivors are in fact weaker.
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Half the time they pick it back up when outta sight
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Killer mains just need to stop thinking that a win is only getting 4k. According to the way MMR works the killer is playing 4 different games so each player they hook and sacrifice is a win. So really only killing one survivor should be considered a win for the killer, that's how the game sees it.
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lol Teabagging Ghostface.. can I ask you something? have you ever pretended to be friendly and then just killed everyone after they all pulled up on you?
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I agree full heartedly too often does it "feel like a loss" when they literally outscore everyone even with 1k
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If each survivor is one game for the killer, than a 1k is 1 win and 3 losses.
Personally I consider 3k a win, whether fourth gets the exit or the hatch, doesn't matter. And it feels like even more of a win if everyone gets a good score.
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Except the hatch doesn't matter at all for the stats they look at to determine what to nerf/buff.
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Yes, but only because i had a daily to get moris
To be fair they were being clicky clicky beforehand the first time i did it
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Yes, same way survivors should have to play near perfectly to get 4 escapes.
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exactly that I can agree with.. If im playing survivor and my teammate sucks I shouldn't have to suffer at the very least break even with a 2k-2out..
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Killers should not have to go play perfectly to get a 4k.
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No game no life anime reference. I think he is asking which side should need to play more perfectly to win. i would say survivor because survivor gets more health-states in total and they get 3 hook-states. they get more chances to play bad where as killer gets less chances to play bad since 5 generators can go faster than 12 hooks. it takes a lot longer for killer to kill you then it takes survivor to finish 5 gens and gates.
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4k definitely should be an accomplishment not a basekit like it is now
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Near perfect doesn't guarantee any kills. Survivors can play extremely safe to deny efficiency and few killers on the roster can change that.
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In my experience it has less to do with how "perfect" the Killer plays and more how stupid the Survivors play. You can 4K on your worst killer just pressing M1 and never using their power if the Survivors are dumb enough.
If I had a dollar every time I did a daily on a Killer I suck at and got screamed at in endgame chat for being a "dirty tunneler" cause Claudette kept running in front of my face, I could take my family out to a nice dinner right now.
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Should killers have to play a near perfect game to get a 4k? No.
I'm not saying that killer shouldn't have any challenge, I like having a challenge as killer, but having to play near perfect and still not getting a 4k let alone a 3k with almost every killer isn't exactly balanced nor fun.
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So it's difficult for survivor not cause of the killer but cause of teammates. That doesn't sound like a killer problem that sounds like a matchmaking/ solo Q problem.
Normally a game is balanced around higher level players not necessarily the top but on the higher end. If we are under the assumption that the one player getting chased isn't getting chased by a bad killer than that means there is a balance problem. It makes sense for every survivor to get nerfed as that is the higher potential for survivor. Why would anyone balance around players that aren't good or haven't played that much?
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Not quite. Killer has 4 chances to increase their MMR in a match (namely killing a survivor). For each survivor they don't kill their MMR decreases, so killing 1/4 is a guaranteed loss by MMR standards. The value of MMR you get isn't equal per survivor though, with higher MMR survivors being worth more meaning that on a 2K you can increase or decrease your MMR when calculating against all of the survivors depending on who you kill. The only way that you can confirm an increase of MMR is a 3k or 4k.
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If your MMR raises logically that means the game considers that a win. Getting a 1k isn't a win in that case.
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All of this. I remember one time I got a daily for Legion who I never play. I threw on the add-on that leaves survivors broken if they mend themselves and of course Thanatophobia for good measure. Neither of which was necessary because I managed to hit all of them right at the start, hooked one, slugged two more, then the fourth downed themselves because they were repairing a gen instead of mending...
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Both 4K and 4E should be freak outliers, but unfortunately the format of the game lends itself to snowballing, in either direction.
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Not quite. The killer has 4 chances to increase their MMR in a match, meaning if you get 1K you get one increase and three decreases. The amount you can get per survivor isn't the same however, the higher difference in MMR between you and the survivor the more MMR you get. This means that even on a 2K you aren't guaranteed an increase of MMR. 3K+ is, as far as I'm aware, the only thing considered a 100% win. In a 1K you "win" against a single survivor, but you don't win against the team.
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but with a 1k you can still outscore every survivor... yup totally "balanced"
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It's insanely easy to get a 4k now as killer, guess that's how BHVR wanted it.
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