Proof that map design is flawed
this video is proof of maps being so poorly designed for killer. The video speaks for itself and this is not only coldwind farm. This is pretty much the majority of maps in game. But this video showcases a PERFECT example of why the map design NEEDS to be looked at in game.
TO ALL PLAYERS SAYING I DID MISTAKES WATCH THIS VIDEO AT 30 MINUTES!
Comments
-
I mean, you got looped well but... it happens ? I've had plenty of good games as killer on this map and of bad games as survivor on coldwind as well. Those survivors knew how to loop and were somewhat organised. But looping is literally all they have not to die.
Also, and I don't mean this meanly but just as question, but why don't you break gens ? Is it to get the traps activated quicker ? (I don't know anything about Pig)
6 -
We already know that map design is flawed, on Coldwind especially, but honestly this video of yours is more of a show of you making mistakes rather then a show of bad map design
16 -
yes for activating the traps faster. But tbh they weren't amazing. They were playing as basic as you could and they got SO REWARDED for they're gameplay that I ended up with 1k only. If you watch closely in the video you can see that they had so much resources. Back to back loops or tiles. Anyone can play the way they did as a survivor even me and even you. But when you play normal with killer you get punished
2 -
not true. How many mistakes did they do compared to me? I mean at one point in the video I was close to earning a 4k by slugging them. Don't be biased
1 -
and i've mentioned this issue ISNT only coldwind. A LOT of the maps are like this when you play as killer, Did you forget badham, red forest? and many more? Don't just point out coldwind
1 -
Apologies for going over your video with a fine tooth comb, but there are several mistakes you made
For one, Slugging while 4 people are still alive very rarely, if ever, actually works, especially when playing a M1 Killer like Pig, best thing to do would have been to spread out hook states and to try and kill one of them off as quick as possible, slugging is always a massive gamble and for you it just didn't pay off
You also only kicked gens twice, i get wanting the traps to go off sooner but it would have been better to just kick them and move on, if they're focusing on getting the traps off then the gens will regress, with Brutal Strength and Fire Up it would have barely taken any time, and you would have knocked off at least a decent chunk of progress while they were getting their traps off
2:10, why did you crouch? you could have gotten the m1, and then potentially chased and downed the obsession, being greedy with STBFL stacks while all of the survivors are still alive isn't necessary
2:31, The Kate ran into you and she Dead-Harded, i will admit, i do this on reflex as well, but it's a good thing to remember, if a survivor spins into you, wait for the animation, THEN swing, because she got the Dead Hard off, you then spent a full minute chasing her, half of which was spent trying to mind game her at the jungle gym, personally i would have just been more direct, chase her until the pallet drops, break it because you have Brutal Strength and Fire Up, and then continued, however this chase wasn't entirely wasted, since she used the pallets at the Cow Tree and Shack, getting rid of those 2 pallets at 4 gens is really good for you
3:42, you swung at the Jake even though you already saw he had Sprint Burst, self-explanatory
3:55, after getting a good hit at the pallet on the Jake, you break it and then don't continue chasing, even though he has already used his SB and, if he was running towards the shack, he would be in a area with only 1 or 2 pallets, instead you went to go look for the person who triggered the Jigsaw Box, someone who was uninjured and probably long gone by the time you went to check, also, why didn't you check the unfinished gen that was over there? The surv you were looking for might have been there, never hurts to check unfinished Gens
4:20, you find the Jake, you had the right idea, but i would have made use of the Undetectable that crouching gives you to try and trick him,
5:12, why the hell did you not follow the Jake? it worked out for you in the end sure, but you would have downed him sooner if you followed him instead of taking such a weird route, it would make sense if you also kicked the gen to make it regress, but you just took a path that let him get out of sight for a bit
5:43, not a mistake, this was actually really well played on your part, just wanted to point it out because it was funny
6:05, you get a good hit on the Kate, but then decide not to chase her, even though she would have barely made any distance because of your 7 STBFL stacks, and she was running to area with no pallets, you not chasing her right then and there was what allowed her to finish the gen
6:27, you go to the Jake on hook even though the Haddie got picked up, which was a bad call
6:43: you don't wait to swing, a good idea since you have STBFL, but i would have still waited just to be sure, a stack and a down is a lot better then just a stack
7:42, why didn't you hit the Obsession? She was injured and was right there, again, don't greed for STBFL stacks when everybody is still alive, you can get those 2 stacks back very quick
7:44: you were a bit too quick on the draw with your swing, which means she gets away and you don't get any stacks
8:08, well played on your part, knowing me i probably would have triggered the DH on accident
8:38, why camp here? everyone was injured, i personally would have just left to go look for the rest, especially the Jake, you sitting there for nearly a minute let them all fully heal and finish the last gen
Don't get me wrong, the survivors weren't exactly Seal Team 6, and absolutely were carried by the map, but you also did make several mistakes and bad plays that ended up biting you later
13 -
The reason i singled out Coldwind is because Coldwind is a particularly egregious offender, i'm not going to say that only Coldwind has bad map design because that statement is simply untrue
1 -
i wouldn't say its maps themselves. the maps look beautiful. its more of the pallets. too many safe pallets that force killer to break pallet because their ability doesn't help them in the chase/outplay survivors.
just looking at your video, go and check how many pallets you were forced to break as killer on that map
0:32 - jungle gym pallet
2:56 - jungle gym pallet ->kate made movement error that you could got a hit on.
3:12 - cow loop pallet
3:33 - shack pallet
3:57 -safe filler pallet
4:36 -long wall pallet.
5:02 - safe filler pallet
5:24 - first unsafe pallet.
8:00 -long wall pallet
you had to break 8 pallets and you got to play 1 pallet. i think map had like ~3 more pallets. killers are suppose to use their ability to get downs at the pallets.... but pig ambush dash is .... not very good for any of those safe loops. Its mostly similar for all other maps. you have to break 80% of pallets and like 20% are pallets that killer gets gameplay at. Its why 10% pallet breaking speed doesn't do much since you can still chain all these loops and the killer lacks gameplay at them.
10 -
nice well said brother.
2 -
No need for proof, we all know that maps are the real villain of DBD
2 -
How the hell does the game run so smooth for the guy in the video ?
My game used to run sooooooo bad, then I uncapped the fps and disabled vsync and now runs ok-ish but still not as good as his, and my specs are pretty decent, plus I'm playing on low quality
0 -
This is frustrating to me, on one hand I know how unfair coldwind map farms are, but on the other hand, while you play individual tiles well your macro gameplay is non-existent. This is a game that you could have won, so your argument using this particular game is actually showing the opposite of what you intended. If I were a developer the conclusion I would come to is that this map is balanced and that weaker maps should become more like this map.
5 -
we don't need proof, it's been garbage.
Pallets after pallets after pallets. Then you're told to "drop chase". Ok. I chase someone else who does the exact same thing, reaches pallets after pallets. Ok, at least im getting rid of pallets, right? It doesn't matter, gens will be flying by fast, you're not getting any pressure by breaking pallets. Congrats, you've broken 15+ pallets and you've lost the game because of it. The counter? Don't play an m1 killer.
The life of an m1 killer is pain.
7 -
PS5 console not PC
0 -
100% agree with you
2 -
Anyone who takes the time to point out all the mistakes made, no killer player is 100%. The point of the video is to showcase how many safe tiles there are which M1 killers have no mind game. This is also why so many higher mmr survivors complain about only seeing nurse and blights. I do refer to this as poor map design but it is technically poor tile design. Sadly, instead of addressing poor tile design, bhvr is making killers with anti loop abilities which just means the older killers are no longer viable.
3 -
Well dang, maybe if BHVR would have listened to the community and nerfed bloodlust instead of buffing it, maps could be nerfed. But they didn’t do that, did they? Forcing a killer to break a pallet is the only way to stop bloodlust.
They also gave all killers 10% faster actions across the board, and lessened a survivor’s speed boost after injury.
1 -
We don’t need proof, we already know how awful maps can be.
0 -
No need for this video, with RPD, Eyrie, and Garden Of Joy coming in the game and being considered some of the worst for killers, we don't need any proof, it's very obvious that map design is terrible, especially the reworked maps.
1 -
I haven't watched the whole video, all I am going to say is that Rancid Arbattoir, in my opinion, is like the one farm map that is actually pretty damn balanced. That and maybe Rotten Fields now. It has it's fair share of safe pallet loops, and a strong window, but it's also one of the smallest maps in the game. So I don't think that map is a good example of flawed map design.
Fractured Cowshed, now that is a teriible map.
Also, I think people agree that Pig is still one of the weaker killers, so that also plays a factor here. And it seems like you have also made a fair amount of mistakes during the match, judging by other comments here.
Edit: Ok I just saw that play at killer shack at about 3:25. That was a 100% guaranteed down, you completely messed that up yourself. Not helpful if you blame the game for bad plays, it won't help you to improve. Though I do understand killer is tougher on console, but still.
0 -
Dude you did not play well at all. I have only watched a few parts of the vid and I have already seen multiple instances where you could have easily gotten a hit against survivors.
You argue that anyone can play survivor the way they did, but that's because you didn't play very well yourself. This has nothing to do with map design.
1 -
OP ran Brutal and Fire Up, and chose to mind-game all of their chases instead of just brute force through the map's resources.
Considering OP had 2 pallet gyms in excellent locations for creating dead zones, and the fact that the decision-making in this video was questionable at times, the criticism feels warranted.
This video isn't the smoking gun it wants to be.
My thoughts on map design aside, it doesn't appear in the video that OP knows how to force value out of their build--they definitely could have 4k'd this game.
1 -
See, on big maps like Eyrie of Crow, I would agree. Rancid Arbattoir is one of the smallest maps in the game, so the higher amount of safe pallets are not a big deal.
3:12 - OP could have easily gotten a hit their with a lunge.
3:33 - OP outmindgamed the Kate, just to then let her get to the pallet for free. That was a 100% guaranteed down.
4:36 - long wall pallet misplayed clearly. They could have clearly gotten a hit there.
And these 3 examples are justregarding potential hits at those pallet loops, and nothing else. No talk about map pressure and stuff for example.
Also, Pig is an M1 killer. Most killers don't struggle with these pallets nearly as much. This is why M1 killers are generally considered too weak. But that doesn't necessarily have to be because they are too weak in chase, but instead because the rest of their basekit just doesn't make up for the lack of their chase power.
Too many safe pallets are not good. Normally. I do agree with that. However, there are maps with more safe pallets than Rancid Arbattoir, and Rancid Arbattoir makes up for the safe pallet loops with it's very small size.
Farm maps in general are a bit problematic, because they have far more safe tiles than many other map realms. But Rancid Arbattoir really isn't a problem.
1 -
Right, so play style aside, this means for the amount of safe tiles there are on maps that killers should just brute force as many as they need to for a down. Then hope 3 gens aren't done in the 1st chase. This in my opinion is a large part of what has led to the camp/tunnel strat being so prevalent lately. By the time a dead zone is created and you get a down, survivors have done like 2/3s of their objective.
Instead i would prefer to see smaller tiles which are mind-gameable to increase skilled play. B/c right now, as long as the rest of the team is doing gens, survivors can just throw a pallet against a killer then run to the next.
0 -
5 mins in and your Pig has not crouched once. I dont know why Pig players do this, you’re only giving the survivor time to run away as you approach.
0 -
They're playing a killer with no real mindgame potential on jungle gyms, with a build that capitalizes on creating deadzones.
They established pressure really early in the game, then threw it away by chasing a survivor who wasn't going to be touching a gen for the next minute (preoccupied with removing bear trap), got baited into procc'ing Dead Hard from said survivor, and then didn't force a pallet drop as soon as possible.
Furthermore, once Kate dropped that pallet at cow tree, they should have ran around the right side and pushed her back into the tile she just came from, instead of letting her get distance towards shack, or dropped chase all-together.
When you run a build like this, you need to be deliberate about how you zone survivors--you need to corral them into dead zones you create in the early game so you can snowball in the mid-to-late game.
People shouldn't expect to find success when they don't use their tools correctly.
1 -
i don't think map size contributes very much to killer's problems. usually, big maps just exaggerate holding-w before the chase and gen spread where getting into a chase takes longer due to walking distances. sure it plays factor but nowhere near as the pallet problem.
I didn't want to fully critique the gameplay, though i couldn't help myself on first account. i don't think pig is alone. take any of low-tier killers that are m1 centric and they have same problem. Trapper, Wraith, Sadako, Ghostface, Myers, Legion and the killer that have chase powers.... 90% of them, you can just outplay as survivor rendering the power ineffective. Like you think Wesker is going to be having different results vs these pallets when dropped? news flash, it's going to be similar for him. Farm maps is like worst realm for killer, racid included. Safe pallets are not good game for design for killer. they're amazing for survivor because the game plays itself.
0 -
Big maps make it noticeably harder to apply proper map pressure. So I do think that map sizes can play an important role as well.
In my experience, Rancid Arbattoir has always been a fairly balanced map.
Also, yes, I realise that all those killers you listed struggle. That's why many people are also asking for buffs to those killers. But that's more an issue of those killers being too weak.
Also, killers with good chase powers can still be outplayed by survivors, rendering their power ineffective? To be fair, if a survivor outplays a killer, than they deserve to not be hit by their chase power. But if you are arguing that survivors can render anti-loop killers chase powers useless if they only play well enough, so that the killer doesn't have any outplay potential themselves, then I don't know what to tell you. That is just 100% not true.
And yes, I think Wesker, just like a bunch of other killers in this game, will have less trouble on these type of maps. Like, are you really telling me he is going to struggle just like an M1 killer? Because then you don't seem to know how to play chase killers effectively.
To be fair, Wesker's chase power seems to have more counterplay than a lot of others, which is a good thing. At some loops, it won't do much. But at other loops is has a lot of potential. Especially loops like Jungle Jyms or T-L walls.
But his power will also be really strong in between loops. That already will set him apart from M1 killers a lot.
So honestly I have no idea how you could come to the conclusion that a killer like Wesker, not to mention killers with stronger anti-loop potential, would struggle almost as much as M1 killers.
0 -
My thoughts exactly. I was over here screaming at my computer to crouch at the beginning, even at some of these short loops and walls were crouching and using ambush mind games could have led to the same results but quicker... Could have easily led to a surprise ambush at the beginning that led to a quicker down. Instead ol' boy had the megaphone out announcing the Pig Parade had arrived in town.
I'm pinning some old 2018 Pig footage of mine because why tf not. I think this was from the scorching summer 2018 event... We live or die by the ambush in this house.
1 -
Props to OP for sharing your gameplay instead of just making claims like 95% of this forum.
If I can give one potential advice that hasn't been said, something that strikes me is your way of moving the camera around tiles is very weird and might cause you to not "hug" the walls properly.
To see what I mean, compare how you loop the shack at 3:25
First you move past the corner and then you turn the camera, but personally I'd turn the camera before passing the corner, and so do many players. For example, check how Otz loops the same wall:
I can not tell 100% that this makes a difference but it seemed very strange to me that you didn't manage to get any distance on this Kate and that might be the reason.
0 -
Lmao @ Pig Parade I’m dead. 😂
Your pig is very sneaky! 😳 but now I’m sad cuz I want those slushie machine gens back 😭 Every summer I wait for them lol
1 -
I mean bloodlust is more a fix for problematic map design, not the other way around. Both Bloodlust nerfed or removed, and better map balance, would have to happen at approximately the same time.
The 10% faster actions and 10% decreased sprint burst duration really do not play a big role here though, when it comes to actual bad map designs. Survivors still have more than enough time to get to some tile after being hit by the killer.
This map shown in the video is pretty balanced if you ask me. Maps that are pretty small can have more pallets that are safe, than maps that are big. But maps like Eyrie of Crow, are a big problem. Even with bloodlust considered. No idea why they even buffed bloodlust. They should just take a look at maps like Eyrie of Crow and make them at least somewhat more balanced.
0 -
Part of it is that you didn't use your pressure very well. At the end, waiting in the basement instead of going after gens was abig mistake. You had two injuries and someone with an active hat, but you decided not to press your advantage and instead let them heal and regroup
2 -
they also made a lot of mistakes. You can't just say it's my fault. the point of this video is to show map design not awesome gameplay. Watch my other videos I promise you I have played better than this. Don't judge my play in this video. They also made loads of mistakes.
0 -
watch this video at 30 minutes if you want to see amazing gameplay by me. It still doesnt change the fact that maps are BAD in this game
0 -
The survivors were kinda terrible, but well... You don't have literally any game sense whatsoever, and your decision making was awful. These are the only two reasons you didn't win this game, map had nothing to do with it in this case
0 -
rhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT3Jj5KCpjE
Watch this at 31 minutes then tell me I dont have game sense.
0 -
Ummm... you don't have game sense or maybe you do? It wasn't actually that bad of a showing and the perks you were running weren't super strong, but it definitely wasn't a game I would have told other people to watch.
Once things didn't go your way, you just started to ramble about how the game is trash and complain about the survivors using perks. You literally are sharing a gameplay of you bming characters because you got salty that they made a small comeback after they didn't play well in the early game. No offense, but it kind of just showed how childish you are when things get frustrating. Some of the mistakes you made in chase is just normal juking that survivors do against deathslinger, nothing wrong with the game.
There were definitely things you did right and did wrong throughout the video. The survivors weren't that good as a team overall, but they had some decent players on the micro level, so I would say you did outplay them by technicality since you took advantage of the mistakes they did make.
It was hard to determine your game sense level because for most of the game, it didn't seem like the survivors were pressuring gens as much as they should have, given that you are deathslinger and have no map pressure. They actually were doing fairly well with gens once it came down to a 3v1, so not sure what was going on in the early game for them.
Good things: You took advantage of them trying to do an insta save and punished them heavily for that. That was a really good play and really good game sense there so props to you for recognizing that. That shot at the end was also really good, I think she was dead to time anyway, but it still could have come in clutch if there were a few more seconds to EGC.
Not so good things: In the very beginning of the match, you spot a survivor but don't chase after them right away. Wasn't a big deal, but I just found it odd you didn't start that first chase right away. A couple of times when it came down to the 3v1 you would drop chase with an injured survivor to go for a healthy one or just drop chase with an injured survivor when you had no clue where anyone else was. I get that sometimes you have to drop chase when it takes too long, but in some of the scenarios, it let the survivors completely reset because you gave up that pressure.
Bad thing: You blamed the game and accused a survivor of cheating when they wiggled out. This was the main example where I knew you definitely lack some game sense, or at least in the moment forgot. The survivor that wiggled out was the survivor you grabbed who tried to unhook earlier, they wiggled out because you had dropped them. You can't even blame the map spawning bad hooks either because there were two hooks you could have gotten both survivors to if you hadn't dropped the one (far right next to building and the one you headed to, possibly far left one as well). It might have resulted in a bleed out of that one survivor, but it definitely would have ended that game much quicker, it went on for so long because of that mistake. After this mistake your whole attitude changed as well from being respectable to not being respectable because of the amount of vitriol you had for the game and survivors.
My advice, find a better example than this one if you want to showcase your game sense abilities. This wasn't the worst showing, but it definitely didn't show a good character coming from you.
Edit: I also forgot to mention you hit the Mikaela off the hook right away which is just a bad decision considering what player you are playing. If you really wanted to go for the tunnel, you should have shot mikaela with the harpoon, held it for the 5 seconds, and then hit her to down her. Literally is one of the killers that best counters the 5 second bt. Even if it was a mistake to hit her (auto aim sometimes does this to me too), you could have done the same with the steve and his deadhard wouldn't have saved him either. You had the tool to guarantee a down in that scenario and didn't use it. Bad game sense.
1 -
I am not judging your gameplay, I am just pointing out that you could have definitely gotten some more hits where you didn't. From what I could see, the survivor did play a bit better than you. But fair enough, that's always hard to judge. You always do have to keep in mind that killer is a bit more punshing than survivor however, because of the nature of the game.
I still stand by the opinion that Rancid Arbattoir is a fairly balanced map. Unlike Fractured Cowshed or Troment Creek.
0
