Does Wesker come with a tunnelling/camping agreement?
I swear to God, every.single.Wesker I play against plays the exact same way: Hook, facecamp, tunnel, repeat. It's honestly baffling.
When is Reassurance going to be made useful?
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That's just what happens when the killer character sucks. I don't often hear about Pinhead or Artist tunnelling or camping and it's because they don't need to.
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A: A lot of new players may have joined because the game is on a big sale and it's a licensed chapter. This means that there are more killers who are newer.
B: This generally happens when a new killer comes out. A lot of people have to camp or tunnel to secure a kill because they haven't gotten good yet at the killer. (Bad way to get good, but some people really want the kill instead of just learning the power)
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Just wait for people getting prestige 1 and then 3 on Rebecca (remember you need to do that if you are not playing the character to get it on all the others)
And then, JUST WAIT FOR IT TO COME IN THE SHRINE !!!
You'll see the new meta ^^
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Same every wesker I went against as tunnelled the living hell out of players in my games. I played as wesker he's fun and I can 4k without playing like a douche. So much for 10 seconds base kit BT LUL
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That's just because Nemesis players are now trying out the new RE entry
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Wesker is definitely harder to play, but that doesn't mean he sucks. I guess some people just expect to pick up a killer and master him within 5 matches or so, and then get frustrated when they don't.
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Idk, does posting on forums come with a complain about strategies requirement?
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This happens when the Devs make tunneling and camping super-easy.
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Well, now is killer mains camping and tunneling other tunnelers and campers mains
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Ah yes, i forgot that 10 second basekit BT and the bonus speed boost were put there to make survivors easier to tunnel and camp.
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That hardly makes any sense tho. Why buy a BRAND NEW killer that hasn't even been out for 36 hours yet, if you're just gonna play in the most boring, unskillfull way possible without at least trying? Why not just play Bubba at that point? Or really any other killer for that matter?
Also you say only low-tier killers camp and tunnel yet just last night I had a Nurse hard camp me to death on my first hook during the middle of the match.
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You mean the...four separate changes to make tunneling and camping harder?
Tell me more.
I'll tell you.
The way the MMR is calculated for killers you've never played before is baffling.
According to some sources, it's pegged just below your highest MMR killer. Others, it's your average MMR.
Yes.
On a killer you've never played before and likely don't have many perks or addons for yet.
So people go in, get clobbered and switch to a simpler strategy.
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Because new players are joining to play the new RE killer and use the most intuitive strategies that happen to be extremely effective.
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Artist does camp though, she uses her crows to camp from a distance, thats the difference.
As far as wesker camping goes... its the same as any killer with a big speedy ranged attack. It promotes hanging around a hook so you can get the survivor that comes to unhook w/ your power. You see it with huntresses that get just outside of kindred range and wait w/ their axes.
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Killer still has agency and the ability to remove people from the game.
More changes are needed.
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Partial agree. Killer players will start camping and tunneling when they realize the killer they're playing sucks, like when Deathslinger first hit live. They're not confident in their killer's ability to win the game even when doing really well in chases.
It's not that Artist and Pinhead don't need to tunnel to win. It's just that they wouldn't be playing off their strengths if they did that. Artist can multi-task, shooting birds across the map as she's engaging in chase with someone else. Pinhead has to interrupt the box to keep the chain hunt going, or else he's just an M1 killer with inconsistent anti-loop. That's the only reason why they don't tunnel.
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I've gone against maybe a dozen Wesker yet, and I didn't see any camping (save for maybe at 1 gen with his first or second hook of the game, which is understandable in my opinion) and very little tunneling.
In my experience most people were just chilling and trying out the killer.
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By this logic, anything short of just giving survivors 100% free unhooks is 'camping'.
A camping Artist is a bad Artist.
Lining up a birb volley to try and bullseye the person unhooking is just...lightly defending that hook.
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I want to love this update, but the playerbase has been downright awful for every single match I’ve been in since the patch hit yesterday. I’m either matched with teammates that are completely new to the game or being toxic to other survivors.
And this isn’t even taking into account the number of toxic killer players that are griefing
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game as a whole is in a bad place imo....and people are losing hope the devs have any desire other than to make money with new chapters.
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Game is in the best place it has been since I started playing in 2020.
'Perfect' will always be the enemy of 'better'.
Hell, even a year ago there were still tons of spots where you couldn't pick people up, for one - and maps still had pseudo-infinites.
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I mean did you really expect killer players to play in any other way when the devs are not making substancial changes to that playstyle?
The devs have to hold their hand afterall.
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wesker doesnt even suck.
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Only tunneled once so far with wesker, made it obvious I was going for the unhooker, but got bodyblocked in a doorframe counted to eleven and hit the unhooked, had bt. They even brought ds.
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Or, you know, we could not do the silly Us Versus Them dance yet again?
The developers had numbers saying that kill rates were lower than they wanted. So they tweaked things. Buffed some basekit stuff on killers and survivors, nerfed some stuff on killers and survivors.
Killers did win this one, but way, way less than the forum hysterics would have you believe.
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I find it amusing that you think its us vs them when pointing out that one side gets a buff to hopefully encourage them to play differently, but instead they want to have their cake and eat it too. If you think that this is Us vs Them, you have a terrible bias attached to you.
"Tweaked things" is subjective, because to you they almost seem meaningless. Yet those of us who understand BOTH sides, know how bad Camping and Tunneling already was, not only in the lack of skill required to pursue the SAME survivor again, but also how it inevitably makes the gameplay feel more dull and like you have to play 50% of your load out with perks that semi-counter those two playstyles, just to get to somewhat feel like you're playing the game.
Band-aid perks don't interest me when the core problem still persists. I don't care what their killrates were, considering that they could have done other things to help certain killers who need it and not grant a universal buff to those who didn't need it to begin with. Hence why Nurse has become a problem lately.
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If you dont tunnel or camp against decent survivors, you lose.
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I'm assuming it's because people are learning to use Wesker but also want the kills. When trying a new killer I think people should expect that they won't do that great a job the first few tries, and will probably have escapes. But some people don't accept that.
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Haha okay. Where do I even start here?
- The buff wasn't to encourage them to play differently. The buff was to increase kill rates. Where you you getting this from, mate?
- This is textbook, absolute Us Versus Them. You're literally insulting an entire faction of the playerbase...because some people play in a cheesy way. Much as I'd be doing the same if I'd blamed all survivors for the...what, four years of people abusing spots where it was impossible to pick them up from.
- Camping and tunneling are a different issue, and very difficult to solve. Baseline BT was a start. Reassurance is another step in the right direction. The idea isn't just active discouragement, it's passive discouragement.
- On top of this, you can't 'fix' tunneling and camping, because nobody seems quite sure what these even mean. Hell, I've been accused of tunneling because someone ran into me after being unhooked, because I dropped someone to chase a sabo-er and once literally because 'I chased someone for so long'. And let's not even start on camping - there is a thread on the front page still where people equate 'camping' to 'lightly defending a hook on Artist'.
- I've made several suggestions to help negate camping, but as BHVR have said themselves, it's hard to find a solution that won't result in people finding ways to exploit it against killers who aren't camping.
- I'm not a big fan of bandaid perks either - but why use this to attack all killer players? This is a BHVR issue, and I...sort of see what they're going for. The existence of the perk discourages the behavior, even if it's not present. Yes, putting them on RMT survivors is dirty pool though.
- Nurse does not benefit from the buffs at all. Her Fatigue state is independent of hit cooldowns. Do you...play much Nurse?
- Nurse is also a problem killer, because her kill rates are, when the gross data is taken into account, the lowest in the entire game. I'm not a fan of balancing off gross data, but if BHVR are going to nerf killers because they are overperforming at lower MMRs despite them being weak at higher MMRs, then it's hardly fair to also nerf killers who are struggling at lower MMRs because they are too strong at higher MMRs. It has to be one or the other.
- Nurse became more of a problem 'lately' due to bugged addons. These have been fixed.
- You're completely ignoring all the nerfs that killers got in 6.1.0, and the immense BT buff they just got.
But let's get real here. BHVR could nerf Nurse, or totally rework her, and the complaints would immediately shift to Blight. Then to the next strongest killers. Because that's how forum feedback works, unfortunately.
My problem is that you're attacking an entire faction of the game by claiming that they need BHVR to baby them, when it's only quite recently that this game wasn't completely broken in favor of survivors (prenerf OoO, pseudo infinites, endless glitched spots etc.).
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Well that's a wall of text.
Honestly you keep bringing killrates to excuse the mere fact that people are pointing out the problems the patch brought. Because in that same patch the devs said they wanted to shift the meta. Unless you forget that part too. Guess what? It didn't shift the meta! DS became OTR, Camping/Tunneling playstyles did not go anywhere (in fact they got worse), Solo Q got a slap in the face. So where I am coming from is from the perspective that while your "killrates" may have gotten better, it was not without affecting OTHER aspects of the game or completely making them miserable.
Who says you can't fix Camping and Tunneling? I legit would love to know who said this. Cuz I've heard some great ideas out there. It would require the devs to stop creating band-aid perks and actually rework core mechanics, like hooks.
I actually find it extremely interesting that you are capable of distinguishing the Camping and Tunneling that is "fair" (for lack of better term) but fail miserably at acknowledging that there is also a part of it that can be excessively unfair. Not only because (like I said before) it is LAZY, CHEAP, and CHEESY...(When I think of strategy, those are not words I attribute to skill. Skill which is what should be the driving force behind playing the game)....but also not new player friendly because of the requirement of perks that soft counter those playstyles. Not to mention the impact they have on killers like Nurse and Blight.
I am guessing your Nurse question was rhetorical so I will ignore that. Nurse surely did get an advantage through this buff. 50 seconds on extra total gen time IS an advantage. Against a Camping Nurse, this is a big advantage. Not surprising you are only pointing out the things that don't benefit her. lol
Last but not least if you have a problem with me pointing out who is part of the problem and you think it's us vs them... Idk what to tell you! I would say the same thing if survivors were claiming they needed faster gens and actually got the devs to change it, meanwhile they are still stacking up on Prove Thyselfs, and BNPs. 🤷♂️
I don't see balance as a one side issue.
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What?
Uh...no, a 'wall of text' would be if I made a massive, unbroken post. I even went to the trouble of bullet-pointing it for you, and it's not much longer than what you just typed lol.
But okay.
- No, I'm bringing up kill rates because you said the reason killers were buffed was to discourage camping/tunneling. I'm trying to find where you got this from - still waiting, actually.
- They wanted to shift the meta in terms of perk usage. They succeeded. I don't think I've ever seen this much variety.
- The 6.2.0 changes were designed to discourage camping and tunneling, due to Reassurance and 10 seconds of BT.
- The devs said that they've tried many solutions to camping, and they all ended up being exploitable. Tunneling is almost impossible to fix.
- Sure, there's a part that can be unfair. I'm saying that, until survivors actually adopt a common definition for these terms, most of the signal will continue being lost in the noise.
- Let's let the dust settle on this patch though before we declare that the sky is falling again. The BT extension is a massive nerf to tunneling, for starters.
- Nurse is...not a good camper at all. The current Nurse meta isn't about camping, it's about snowballing off a down with Agi and Starstruck.
- Neither is Blight, for that matter. His problems are his ridiculous addons.
- My Nurse question wasn't rhetorical. Gen times weren't a 'buff' to killers, they were the other side of the 'we nerfed passive regression perks across the board because we want to shift the perk meta' equation. Which succeeded - now you either have to play a kicky game, dedicate your build to PR or focus more on lethality. Savvy squads can still burn through gens with PTS, HF, BnP etc.
- Who, exactly is part of the problem? Killer players? Yeah, that's why you're getting pushback from me. Because both sides complain endlessly, and this wasn't a change based on forum complaining - this was BHVR looking at their own data and changing the game.
- Yes, you absolutely do see balance as a one sided issue. Because you just claimed that killer players are the problem.
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Most wesker I have played agains't have not tunneled or camped. Just met few who camped or tunneled but they were not good. Most matches weskers have won my solo teammates go down quickly and if they don't they don't do gens.
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So DS being replaced by OTR is uh-- a shift from the previous meta? Camping and Tunneling only being more solidified as playstyles after it was already a known factor of why game is in the state that it is in is a shift from the meta? .... Oh boy.
I never said killer players were the problem, just the people that feel entitled because something that is clearly unbalanced is somehow "fair" and "ok" in their minds. If that person happens to be a survivor or a killer player, then yes they are the problem.
I don't see balance as one sided because if you actually knew the stuff I post, I have said plenty of times that certain killers DO need a buff. That doesn't mean that I am going to stand behind a universal buff that gives an over-advantage to specific killers. I don't think you on the other hand mind overbuffing killers based on your responses. I main Michael Myers and right off the bat one of his biggest issues is lack of mobility to pressure another side of the map. Something which is pretty in line as an issue along with other killers. An issue that the patch could have addressed but did not.
I don't focus my idea of balance or fun solely on killrates or escapes, because I understand that some matches are fun even though you lose on either side. So I would stop repeating something I didn't say and that you took out of context.
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@GoodBoyKaru put it well.
Nemesis players have moved on.
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People tunnel as Wesker because he is insanely good at tunneling. Too good in fact and there is nothing you can do about it. You keep your infection when you come off the hook. Then it quickly climbs back up and you are fully hindered again before you know it. It is literally impossible to cleanse your infection when you are getting tunneled. Now you have to deal with massive slowdown in addition to all of the other disadvantages that come with tunneling. Wait until more people realize this and start abusing it.
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I've said it a million times already that base kit endurance and haste does nothing to stop camping or tunneling. Its just one more hit the killer needs to get on you and even if you make it to a pallet with haste there is no chance that the killer will just leave you and go for someone else. Give the survivor 100 seconds of endurance after being unhooked and its still only one extra hit. The only solution I see to camping is to move the player to a hook across the map so the killer is forced to look for other survivors. Otherwise there is no fix for this and killers will just continue to do it.
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Agreed, for killer mains of course.
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Yeah, it's a bit weird they want to discourage tunnelling when the infection continues to grow despite being chased. It's actually in his favour to focus on one survivor until they are hindered. I haven't had a single tunnelling Wesker game so far, so either some know but don't care or they haven't realised yet. This would also explain why a survivor sprayed me immediately after unhooking me. I might start doing that too.
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Unfortunately ur right.
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Yeah, it's a shift from the meta. And I was against the DS nerf, and still am.
Camping and tunneling should be less effective now. Quite a bit, actually. That buff to the baseline BT is substantial.
No, you absolutely did say that killer players were the problem, several times - and again, you insist on launching into personal attacks for some reason. You can check my recent posting history, but I play both sides pretty much equally.
What context? You straight up said that killer players needed their hands held by the devs, and implied that they were 'the problem'.
I'd say for everyone, unless you believe that 'I escape more' means 'game is better'. I see a ton more variety as a survivor, and have a much wider variety of perks to choose from - I no longer have to run DH and BT, for instance.
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I disagree with that, it depends on player.
I have hard tunneller Blights and Nurses and then i have fair playing Trappers and Sadakos. It seriously depends on players, not characters.
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Partly true, but there are tendences. For example, if it's a Spirit or a Nurse and you wildly guess "they're sweaty tryhard tunnellers with 0 chill", you are more likely to be correct than not.
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I don't think you understand how context works. I said they needed their hand held, because THOSE people did. The ones who heavily rely on Camping and Tunneling. Sorry if you took that personal, I know many of the people who come on these forums are heavily dependant on those playstyles. 🤷♂️
Not every killer Camps and Tunnels, I know it may come as a shocker. I never once said killers were the problem, I said the players who refuse to acknowledge the other side's unbalanced issues ARE part of the problem. Please read dude.
I don't care that you keep saying you are for both sides. I could care less if you were one sided tbh. What I don't like is that you keep saying there was a shift in the meta when there wasn't. Like, I dont know how long you have played this game for, but it is very clear that NEW DS = OTR, Camping and Tunneling are more impactful this time, etc. Idc how 'substancial' their built in BT you think it is, the core problem is still there. These are things that are only noticeable by veteran players (again, I don't know how new you are to the game).
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It's on you to provide context for your posts.
There was absolutely a shift in meta. Like...you're not going to shift the meta in terms of gameplay, because the 'rules' of this game are very simple. Killers attempt to kill the survivors before the gens are complete, survivors attempt to not be killed.
In terms of the perks used? Massive shift. OTR is not DS. It has very different counterplay and usage. It serves a similar purpose, sure, but that's like saying Overcharge is the same as Pain Resonance, because they are both regression perks.
I've been playing a fair bit recently, and facecamping/tunneling is much less effective, and I haven't run into a non-Bubba facecamper in a few days.
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It is up to me, but it isn't up to you to distort it into something I never said. Like "Killers are the problem" when in fact you are pigeonholing every killer out there, something which I never did. Again, I know it may come as a shocker, but actually good killers don't rely on Camping and Tunneling to win their matches.
I can guarantee you NOBODY is using DS. A shift in the meta would mean that survivors aren't forced to have 50% of their load outs be a band-aid perk for a playstyle that is still a problem. I can tell we are not going to see eye to eye on this so I won't repeat myself.
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are you playing as Chris Redfield?
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I think the confusion about meta shift is that its being given different definitions. If your definition is the tools required for the effect, that has certainly changed, even their usage applications. If your definition is the reactionary approach to the core game problems, that is still the same as OTR is still used for anti-tunnel/camp, camping and tunneling themselves are used to stifle survivor efficiency before it can deal the most damage, prioritizing finishing gens quickly and prioritizing reducing survivor count asap are both still as meta as they've always been, though the tools people use for those purposes have absolutely changed. None of their core problems have been addressed in a meaningful way, some of them introduced new problems as they fixed parts of old ones, it all just rearranged a bit.
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Isn't OTR a better DS now distancewise?
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Sometimes camping and tunnelling is completely justified. If you have 1 gen left and 4 survivors alive, sometimes you need to tunnel someone out of the match. And the archives and rituals sometimes need you to kill. The devs have been trying to convince everyone about these being acceptable strategies, and these strategies have a downside for the killer as well, as they forget about pressure and you can repair a lot. I know it is not funny to be the victim of these strategies, but you should think about the outcome.
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Uh...20 seconds of haste with an unhook with BT ring a bell? If you can't make that work, you deserve to be camped and tunneled
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