Slugging for the 4k
First off, I have been really glad with some of the changes made recently to make the game health a lot better. I still am of the opinion that there should be an advantage for killers to not tunnel, because in a lot of cases, tunneling early in the game is still worth the trouble, especially if the chase is relatively short(or a disadvantage for killing someone very early on, like buffing the remaining survivors untill at least 3 gens are finished). But all in all, happy with those changes.
However, slugging for a 4k in my eyes is still quite a glaring issue. 2 survivors are already dead, you are on the ground and the killer, with no additional information, starts searching the entire map just for that final survivor. And the final survivor? Well, they have no reason to help their teammate. That would give away their position, and the killer can return to the slugged survivor to simply slug them again. So you're forced to hide for up to 4 minutes if you want any chance of escaping.
This kills the gameflow and ruins games. And the worst part? There are some legitimate reasons for killers to do so:
- certain rift challenges(why sacrifice 8 survivors over 3 games when you can kill them in 2?)
- achievements(mainly adept)
- getting just that extra bit for a double pip
To survivors, there is no way of telling the difference between a killer slugging just to complete a challenge, and a killer slugging so a survivor doesnt have a chance at the hatch. It's quite a shame if a game lasts 12 minutes, only to be forced to spend 1/3rd of that match waiting for your teammate to bleed out because the killer refuses to hook.
Are there any plans in the works to address this specific scenario? Personally, I'd suggest making the difference between 3 kills and 4 kills much smaller Emblem-wise(or add a scoring feature when a survivor escapes through hatch), and then give a survivor the ability to opt-out of a match after being slugged for prolonged times(or the ability to pick themselves up, any reason to force the killer to pick them up and hook them or suffer the consequences).
Comments
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I don’t know why it’s a bad thing for a killer to try and get a 4K. Have you considered just not unhooking a teammate? Do you really need the 4 escape that bad? Why not just settle for 3?
Why wouldn’t it be disadvantageous for survivors? That’s literally the point. The killer already got 2 kills and downed a third. It is meant to be in their favor. Same way it is when gates are open and a killer has nobody on death hook.
Slugging for the 4K is counterplay to a hatch escape.
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basically, killers get to to take away a mechanic from the game the devs put in. i often times find it super pathetic when they get to eliminate hatch all together. They really need to look into this...or just take hatch out altogether.
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DBD players when mechanics have counters:
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Because getting a 4 man escape actually takes effort. Taking away that final survivor takes good effort and teamplay. Reaching the EGC without any casualties is already more difficult than it sounds, and being able to open the gate and have everyone escape succesfully is quite a task with a lot of risk.
Slugging for the 4k, especially when there are generators left has no risk. Hatch used to be that risk, but hatch no longer spawns if more than 1 survivor is alive.
And I am not saying it shouldnt be disadvantageous, that is just you being entitled about the situation, because I clearly stated: "if a game lasts 12 minutes, only to be forced to spend 1/3rd of that match waiting for your teammate to bleed out". That is not a "disadvantage", that is holding a game hostage for 33% of the game untill the bleed-out timer runs out. It's already in their favor because 2 survivors are dead. Just hook the 3rd one and then search the 4th. You already are much more likely to find hatch, and if you find it at the same time, you have priority upon interacting with it. That is disadvantageous enough.
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You do remember that ending a game is a mechanic too, right? And that survivors were capable of preventing a match to end for hours upon hours on end. Or remember infinites? That was a counter to chase mechanics. Why did those have to change? Because they were unhealthy mechanics, just like slugging for the 4k during a 2v1.
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That is not holding the game hostage as per game rules. The game will end in 4 minutes. Hatch having counterplay is a good thing. Hatch in the first place is a pity mechanic that exists for players on the side that have basically already lost. It should not be reliable.
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Imagine comparing infinites or literal hours to a 4m or less timer. The fact you think you’re entitled to the killer not countering what is potentially a free escape mechanic after losing is hilarious.
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Its already not reliable, thats the whole point. Its a final effort to give survivors a reason to keep playing. Not a pity mechanic, a final chance to keep playing. If there was absolutely no hatch and the killer was slugging for the 4k. I would have no reason to not hide in a corner of the map.
Hatch is an option for survivors to tie their personal score, denying the hatch means you refuse to give survivors a fighting chance to tie. That they dont deserve a fighting chance.
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Why would they deserve a fighting chance LMAO??? They literally lost.
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pity mechanic? thats your opinion. they put it in the game so that a survivor has a chance. whether or not you agree with that doesnt change the fact its in the game. Hence why they have keys and perks that make it possible to use them more effectively. shouldnt be up to one side whether or not a mechanic in the game is actually possible.
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Hatch existed purely for survs to have motivation to keep playing if they had a bad start, as if someone DC'd early or was tunneled in the first Two minutes, they could still hope to find a key and find the hatch.
Now, if you dont have a decent start, you can clearly see the 4k happening like 3 minutes in, that is one of the reason many people DC so quickly.
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DBD players when counterplay exists:
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It sucks but it's the counter to hatch.
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I think the situation could be iterated upon because it is a legitimate stalemate and like OP said, it completely kills game flow.
The 4th survivor can't progress the game in any meaningful way without ensuring a 4k. So you're left with a situation where both players 100% die or you have 5 minutes of complete non-interaction for 3 players. It's really boring and the optimal play for the 4th player is to hide and do nothing.
I personally never do it as killer unless it's a scrim. Not sure on the exact stats, but I've 4k'd over 2000 times in public matches. It's not that deep anymore. I genuinely don't care if someone gets hatch.
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Hatch mechanic should be reworked to be more interactive and skill-dependent IMO. Then the killer won’t have to slug if they want a 4K, and survivors won’t just hide and do nothing and refuse to play.
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Survivors lost, but survivors also lose at 3 kills. So why push on further to an unnecessary 4k if you already won?
As for deserving a fighting chance, well, they need a reason to keep playing right? Not giving a chance to escape gives survivors no reason to participate in the game. Remove the hatch entirely, and survivors have 0 reasons to show themselves. Hiding in corners, stalling the game for hours upon hours.
Survivors dont really win on escape, they merely gain extra points.
For MMR they might win through escape, but even through reasoning MMR, the 4th kill doesnt really add that much MMR for killers. The difference in MMR gain between 3k+hatch and a 4k is not really worth stalling a game for 4 full minutes.
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They could have nerfed the old hatch less, by removing hatch blueprint offerings or making keys only obtainable in game chests, forcing you to take plunderer and coins offering and rely on RNG to get a key. I have always said the hatch nerf was too much for the reason it had to exist.
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hatch doesnt need a counter, its already a healthy mechanic
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So being the last survivor left isnt skillful enough? In that case, hooking survivors should be more interactive and skill dependent. So removing bloodlust, making it impossible to tunnel survivors and DS basekit for all would make hooking survivors a lot more skill dependent
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Unfortunatly there are archives and achievements that require the killer to get a 4k. There needs to be a counter to hatch or these will be complete RNG.
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These sound like excuses.
The killer isn't stalling the game in these cases. The survivors are, if they refuse to do their own objectives. Until the gates are powered up, or an escape route is open, their direct obcjective is fixing gens and helping eachother. Not doing that, it's not wasting time because of the killer. They waste time by refusing to do their objectives. You see on your own screen that there are gens left, right? You also see that your teammate is down. So the gamee directly gives you objectives. Not doing that and refusing to play the game is the survivor's fault for refusing to play.
So in this case any fix can involve the hiding survivor's position to be shown if for x amount of time the game is not progressing because he's hiding waiting for the miracle escape instead of playing the game.
When I play the game as survivor, and we are the last 2 alive, I don't see any objective icon on my screen which instructs me to hide and wait for the hatch to open. You see that on your screen?
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Not complete RNG, hatch still spawns in very early on and follows the generation rules of other structures. When is the last time you've seen a hatch spawn directly next to a generator? Only on the smallest maps right?
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The OP wasn't saying it's disadvantageous, the OP was saying that it was boring.
DBD is a game. Ideally it should encourage people to actually have fun by making the advantageous play pattern actually enjoyable.
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If a survivor escapes through a gate, when all the generators haven’t been done yet, it should be worth 0 MMR points for the killer and survivor.
BHVR needs to stop the scenario where the killer is punished if they close the hatch and then the survivor escapes through a gate.
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Oh, so the killer isnt refusing to do their own objective of hooking survivors? As long as a survivor is alive, its the killers objective to sacrifice the survivors.
Survivors objective is to escape. There are 2 ways to escape: hatch and exitgates. If the chance for one drops, their bet is on the other one. Survivors dont need to do gens or pick up their teammates if it means reducing the chances of an escape. The killer can instantly end it by simply hooking and then search for the final survivor. The survivor would be at worse odds giving themselves up.
It's the killers doing that causes the situation, not the survivor. Hence the problem is at the killer, not the survivor. Hiding from the killer is a legitimate tactic. If picking up my teammate will give the killer info of my location, then I have the choice to hide. As long as the slugged survivor cannot do anything to speed up their own death or gain the ability to pick themselves up, it's the killers fault.
This is how burden of problem works:
- you are the one slugging the survivor
- you are the one initiating a 4 minute countdown
- you are the one refusing to speed up that countdown because you dont like a vanilla mechanic
- thus you are the one prolonging the game
The survivors has an option to escape, escaping is their primary focus. If their chances of escape reduce by aiding teammates, it is not an action they should be doing. Claiming survivors HAVE to put their chances of escape at risk because they are stalling is ridiculous.
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It’s just counter play to the hatch spawn.
Once again we have a scenario where it’s to a killer advantage which often means it removes a survivors ability to fully participate.
Non participation is one of the threats you face as survivor it’s part of the game. The counter to non-participation mechanics is your team mates help you.
So you get downed and your team mate refuses to pick you up because it’s risky.
That’s on your team mate, but the solution is always can we punish killers to prevent this happening.
You’re also complaining about a mechanic that already has a solution, there is a bleed out timer.
If it was any shorter then you’d just bleed out quicker during the match and the complaints would be “I keep bleeding out too fast during the game.”
The typical scenario when you hook a third is they suicide on hook straight away to maximise the chance of getting a hatch escape and if they want to do that fine. But another way to avoid that is slug and hunt for the 4th.
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Doesnt really follow any logic there. Here are ways that the killer gains MMR:
Mori's, Devour Hope, Bleedout, Sacrificing.
Here are the ways that survivors gain MMR:
Escaping through the gate
The killer can easily patrol between the 2 gates before the survivor is able to open it up, and thus they can prevent the survivor from escaping even after the hatch is closed. A survivor escaping through the gate should always earn them MMR
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Nooo you have to let the person have one last freebie escape chance! Where is the killer equivalent of hatch?
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Hatch doesn't spawn until only one survivor is left and it's complete RNG if it's nearer the survivor or killer.
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No the killer has teh objective to kill you by any means he see fit. He only has that objective.
the killer in this case is doing his own objective, and looking for the last survivor, the last survivor is refusing to do his objective so he's stalling the game, simple as that.
The killer can chose any route, he doesn't need to hook someone to kill. he has the options to hit once and let go and look for others. He has the option to mori survivors, he has the option to allow survivors to bleed out, he has the option to kill them by sacrificing them on the hooks. These are all part of the game.
As survivor your objective is LITERALLY shown on the screen: X ammount of GENERATORS remaining, fix them. Your teammate is down, you should probably help him.
As killer he has nothing on the screen. His objective is simple. And he fulfills that objective by actively looking for you.
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Sometimes the gates are too far apart to patrol. The last survivor in the game should always be worth 0 points, to encourage the game to end sooner.
Slugging for the 4k gives the killer an opportunity to gain more MMR, so it’s the best game decision if they don’t know where the last survivor is. If the last survivor was worth 0 MMR points, then I wouldn’t care what happens to the last survivor.
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"Non participation is one of the threats you face as survivor it’s part of the game. The counter to non-participation mechanics is your team mates help you."
This is blatantly false. If you're hooked, you still participate in the game, if you have teammates to pick you up, you are still participating in the game. If you are hooked and a teammate is being chased, you are participating in the game. You can crawl, you can recover, you can suicide. This gives your teammates an increased chance of escape or an increased chance of escaping. If you are slugged and everyone else is dead, you are no longer participating in the game. The final survivor cannot really pick you up, you are simply waiting to bleed out.
In a 2v1 and the killer slugging for the 4k, you are no longer participating. You have no control over your death.
So yeah, the only solution to this is to punish the killer to prevent this.
The bleedout timer isnt a solution, its an outdated mechanic. Otherwise DC'ing is a solution too.
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The killer equivalent of hatch is to open the exitgate and camp out 1 kill.
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Exactly, the hatch should just be removed as it rewards failure
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Yeah bleedout basically only exists as an anti-hostage mechanic, it's kinda dumb that it needs to be a thing but some players would play Killer and abuse the hell out of a no bleedout timer DBD just to spite survivors.
Same reason EGC is a thing, it's the killer equivalent
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Alright, not sure if someone has said this already, but you will not get Adept achievements on killer for slugging. You will need to get two blood pips on killer to get the Adept achievements. This is usually 4 iridescent emblems or 3 iridescent emblems and one golden emblem, and sometimes 3 golden emblems and one iridescent emblem. If you're slugging for the 4k you will not be making enough points in the other categories to receive the Adept achievement.
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Yeah, and the survivor has the objective to escape, by any means they see fit. That is their only objective.
Gens are optional for escape, sacrificing your teammates is another.
As for the generator amount remaining being a reason for the objective, and the killer has none, well, I guess you have me ther-OH WAIT, WHAT'S THIS?
A survivor is down, you have hooks remaining, you should probably pick them up.
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Gates are never too far apart. RPD used to have this issue. Big note on used to.
Then camping and tunneling should be removed as it rewards failure, or slugging for the 4k, as that rewards failure.
Oh yeah, but especially in red ranks, you would need to slug in a 2v1 to get enough emblems to get the double pip for adept. That is kinda the issue. You can have a good game of 10 minutes, kill 3 survivors and 1 escaping through hatch and you'd still not get the killer adept. While you could have a game of 8 minutes, kill 2 survivors, slug the 3rd one and then scour the map for the 4th to get the adept.
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I'm not sure which part are you missing when you look at your screen.
as survivor, your objective is shown on your screen. Including to escape when exit routes are open. Until then, your objective didn't change. You can try to dismiss the fact but it's right there on your screen to see it.
About hooking or not, that is perfectly within the killer's choice. If the devs wanted the killer to hook every time a survivor is downed, they would be picked up automatically by the killer after being downed, without the killer being able to do anything about it. So downing someone and not picking them up right away is an intended part of the game, among the killers options. Obviously.
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Camping and Tunnelling rewards failure how, exactly? Mind explaining your conclusion there?
A Nurse tunnelling a dude through their 3 hooks at 5 gens doesn't seem like failure on the Killer's part to me
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With that logic, there are archives that require one (even two) hatch escape using a key, and these are FAR more RNG based than a 4k, like REALLY RNG BASED
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I've gotten adept by only killing 3 survivors and one escape through the hatch. It was 3 iridescent emblems and a gold gatekeeper emblem. It's possible to double pip if one person escapes through hatch. I have all my killer and survivor adepts - for reference.
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Failing to chase and kill other survivors for that entire duration. I mean, the dude said hatch rewards failure, which it doesnt. The final survivor survived the entire ordeal and since its impossible to do gens, is granted another way for an escape to be available. In essence, that final survivor succeeded and since its still a game, is granted another way to escape.
If hatch in its current iteration is a failure because someone gets an escape without possibly finishing all gens, then tunneling and camping is a failure due to not being able to hook anyone else.
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Oh yeah, and odds were likely that you did so before reaching red ranks, or did it quite early on. The issue with killer adept is that you'd face survivors for at least a full week that know how to counterplay your killer, while you havent been able to learn the killer to attempt counterplaying the counterplay.
I have most adepts, but if I play killer normally, I'd reach gold or red ranks quite quick and if I want to adept with another killer, I would either be forced to slug for a 4k or wait for the 13th for the reset. Thats not really a good way to go about things. Adept at red ranks should be equally tough as adept at grey ranks. It being easier at grey ranks is very odd.
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Gates are sometimes too far apart, especially if the survivor tries to 24% the gate, hide, then finish the gate. And the survivor might have something like Wake Up or Sole Survivor to open the exit gates faster.
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Again, here is the killer objective shown on the killer's screen:
Same logic dude. If survivors HAVE to do gens because its on the screen, then killers HAVE to hook because its on the screen. You can try to dismiss the fact, but its right there on your screen to see it.
As for doing gens or not in a 2v1, that is perfectly within the survivor's choice. If the devs wanted survivors to do gens even when the task is practically impossible, they would automatically walk towards gens without the survivor being able to do anything about it. So not doing gens and waiting for hatch to spawn is an intended part of the game, among survivor options. Obviously.
If changing words in your argument ends up with an equally legit counterargument, its not an argument. Yes, slugging for pressure is intended. Slugging for the 4k is a side-effect that might be unintended. If the devs truly meant for you to slug for a 4k, they would have done the following:
- hatch escapes actually REMOVE MMR from killer and give MMR for survivor(this isnt the case)
- they would have made 3k be considered a tie(its not)
- they would have made catching the final survivor to be a huge risk because you leave the downed survivor alone, and they are able to progress the game(this isnt the case).
Since Hatch doesnt give or reduce any mmr, 3k's are considered a win and there is really no additional benefit from the 4th kill(this has been said a lot), slugging for the 4k right now sounds like its not intended and just a by-product. Its extremely boring gameplay-wise and doesnt benefit anyone in any particular way, it only punishes survivors.
That sounds very much like the old hatch, where 3 people could escape with 1 generator left. It didnt really benefit anyone in particular and only punished killers. Hatch has been nerfed, slugging should be next.
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You can prevent that by quickly checking the corners quickly before going back. A survivor cant leave scratchmarks, so they are forced to walk, and the gate is often within walking distance.
Let alone that in many, many, MANY cases, you have 1 vantage point on maps that allows you vision on both exit gates and thus make that escape impossible, even if the survivor runs both Wake Up and Sole Survivor.
With that in mind, what is the exact issue here? That a survivor can escape by outsmarting the killer, and that is somehow a bad thing? A killer can prevent a survivor from escaping by standing still on 1 location and see both exit gates. A killer can prevent a survivor from escaping through slugging for a 4k. A killer can guarantee 1k, especially if they have access to instadowns. So why shouldnt survivors be able to guarantee an escape if they play it smart?
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No, I didn't. Look at the new killers released. I just said I have adept on every killer. Changes went into effect long ago, that means there are killers that came out after those changes. Why are you arguing with me on this. You sound like you don't play killer that much. Just be wrong and move on.
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It's a pretty nasty way of playing. Slugging 4 players just so one doesn't escape? Doesn't really benefit anyone at all. Everyone loses out on bloodpoints. 4 ks are nice but losing a survivor to hatch isn't the end of the world for a killer. Unless you're going for an adept achievement, but then if you want merciless, a 4 slug probably won't score enough for it anyway
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lol what
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