The second iteration of 2v8 is now LIVE - find out more information here: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/480-2v8-developer-update

Legion stun needs to be removed

Zavri
Zavri Member Posts: 261
in General Discussions

The ONE thing we can agree on as it COMPLETELY goes against his design.

Absolutely dumb that he gets a nurse stun after his frenzy is over.

He is already 110% movespeed, he double taps a survivor ( or is able to chain hits on others ) and the stun removes ALL PRESSURE since mending STOPS the timer at 99%.

So basically if he wants to down someone he has to hit TWICE, ######### around and wait for someone to mend and backtrack them.....

Completely dumb.

Remove the stun and he is in a good place.

Right now he is just a REALLY BAD nurse with NO MIND GAME potential.

You fixed spirit now fix legion.

«1

Comments

  • The_Crusader
    The_Crusader Member Posts: 3,688
    So say they're in the killer shack, you just use frenzy, vault the pallet, then cancel and immediately M1 them?

    Does that sound balanced to you?
  • yeet
    yeet Member Posts: 1,832

    @The_Crusader said:
    So say they're in the killer shack, you just use frenzy, vault the pallet, then cancel and immediately M1 them?

    Does that sound balanced to you?

    when nurse can just teleport over the pallet and smack them, yes it does lmao

  • Tsulan
    Tsulan Member Posts: 15,095
    yeet said:

    @The_Crusader said:
    So say they're in the killer shack, you just use frenzy, vault the pallet, then cancel and immediately M1 them?

    Does that sound balanced to you?

    when nurse can just teleport over the pallet and smack them, yes it does lmao

    That moment when you beat people with logic. 
    I love it!
  • douggie123
    douggie123 Member Posts: 1,316
    The_Crusader said:
    So say they're in the killer shack, you just use frenzy, vault the pallet, then cancel and immediately M1 them?

    Does that sound balanced to you?
    Yeah it does actually because with the stun as it is now survivors that he is after will be long gone during chases. He is quite weak at the minute he needs some serious buffs. Stun removal is one of them.
  • douggie123
    douggie123 Member Posts: 1,316
    douggie123 said:
    The_Crusader said:
    So say they're in the killer shack, you just use frenzy, vault the pallet, then cancel and immediately M1 them?

    Does that sound balanced to you?
    Yeah it does actually because with the stun as it is now survivors that he is after will be long gone during chases. He is quite weak at the minute he needs some serious buffs. Stun removal is one of them.
    Or like the nurse has give him add ons which lower the stun time.
  • Delfador
    Delfador Member Posts: 2,552

    @douggie123 said:
    The_Crusader said:

    So say they're in the killer shack, you just use frenzy, vault the pallet, then cancel and immediately M1 them?

    Does that sound balanced to you?

    Yeah it does actually because with the stun as it is now survivors that he is after will be long gone during chases. He is quite weak at the minute he needs some serious buffs. Stun removal is one of them.

    No it is not, he is already really easy to use, it would break the whole killer.

    Before proposing buffs and nerfs, please consider the opposite side.

  • MrZapp
    MrZapp Member Posts: 102

    I'd copy paste the response I wrote to this on a different thread, but it was the OP suggesting the same thing so I'll assume they read it. In short, it would be broken beyond belief for many reasons mainly the fact that the chase would be removed from the chase.

  • Tsulan
    Tsulan Member Posts: 15,095
    Delfador said:

    @Tsulan said:
    yeet said:

    @The_Crusader said:

    So say they're in the killer shack, you just use frenzy, vault the pallet, then cancel and immediately M1 them?

    Does that sound balanced to you?

    when nurse can just teleport over the pallet and smack them, yes it does lmao

    That moment when you beat people with logic. 
    I love it!

    I liked @The_Crusader 's rebuttal more tbh.

    Look at the timestamp. We answered the same moment. 
  • Tsulan
    Tsulan Member Posts: 15,095
    MrZapp said:

    I'd copy paste the response I wrote to this on a different thread, but it was the OP suggesting the same thing so I'll assume they read it. In short, it would be broken beyond belief for many reasons mainly the fact that the chase would be removed from the chase.

    So instead we have a chase without a down...
  • DwightsLifeMatters
    DwightsLifeMatters Member Posts: 1,649
    Tsulan said:
    yeet said:

    @The_Crusader said:
    So say they're in the killer shack, you just use frenzy, vault the pallet, then cancel and immediately M1 them?

    Does that sound balanced to you?

    when nurse can just teleport over the pallet and smack them, yes it does lmao

    That moment when you beat people with logic. 
    I love it!
    Lmao that's illogical, sorry to say 
  • Freudentrauma
    Freudentrauma Member Posts: 1,053

    @yeet said:

    @The_Crusader said:
    So say they're in the killer shack, you just use frenzy, vault the pallet, then cancel and immediately M1 them?

    Does that sound balanced to you?

    when nurse can just teleport over the pallet and smack them, yes it does lmao

    Nurse is different. Her ability works more like a projectile and there are counterplays to it, like losing LoS and mindgames. I even stun Nurses from time to time after blink with a pallette.
    Legion's frenzy doesn't have that. You can outrun them with a SB a bit and maybe pallet stunt them, if you are lucky. They don't see scratchmarks, but losing LoS is still hard, because they run so fast. And if you do so, you can't move far away and need to mend, which causes a sound.
    Legion is a mess to blance, because their core ability is almost uncounterable in a direct chase.

  • PapaAndrei
    PapaAndrei Member Posts: 72

    I believe there should be some form of punishment. Each killer has a downside to their power.

    Main ones being Nurse, her stun
    Doctor, his transition time and MS slow/speedup.
    Huntress buildup, skill required, ms slow
    Leatherdaddy/Billy, charge time, punishment if hit an object. MS Slow
    Myers, well i mean he has to kinda glare menacingly for a while
    Trapper and Hag have their setting times and ways to negate traps.
    Bing bong got the bing bong
    Clown got the recharge
    Pig.... yeah idk, Pigs powers just suck.
    Freddy has the transition time.

    SO thus, Legions weakness is the stun in just using the power .

  • yeet
    yeet Member Posts: 1,832

    @The_Crusader said:
    yeet said:

    @The_Crusader said:

    So say they're in the killer shack, you just use frenzy, vault the pallet, then cancel and immediately M1 them?

    Does that sound balanced to you?

    when nurse can just teleport over the pallet and smack them, yes it does lmao

    If nurse misses she gets a stun, legion doesnt.

    Nurse at least takes some skill to use, legion wouldnt

    And nobody ever said nurse was balanced. Its widely acknowledged shes the best because she breaks the game.

    and if legion missed his power would be depleted and the survivor would hop back over the pallet

  • RSB
    RSB Member Posts: 2,258

    @Janick said:
    We will not remove the stun effect because the killer can cancel the Power at any time. We tried it during development and the cancel then M1 technique was used by some internally and we felt it was very unbalanced and very unfair.

    We are very careful at adding stun (cooldown, fatigue) effects on killers, we prefer to not add any (like the Spirit when possible) but in some case, we have no choice. The design principles, strategy, and gameplay of the game are based on cooldown and timing. It is very hard for new game mechanics to get away from it without impacting everything that was done previously.

    So do you feel, that Legion is fairly balanced for both sides?

  • Wolf74
    Wolf74 Member Posts: 2,959

    The stun and losing the prey that you just hit with Frenzy would be ok, IF the DW would actually do anything.
    Right now it is way to rare that someone will drop just because of getting affected by DW.

  • Orion
    Orion Member Posts: 21,675
    edited December 2018

    @Janick said:
    We will not remove the stun effect because the killer can cancel the Power at any time. We tried it during development and the cancel then M1 technique was used by some internally and we felt it was very unbalanced and very unfair.

    We are very careful at adding stun (cooldown, fatigue) effects on killers, we prefer to not add any (like the Spirit when possible) but in some case, we have no choice. The design principles, strategy, and gameplay of the game are based on cooldown and timing. It is very hard for new game mechanics to get away from it without impacting everything that was done previously.

    How about just making it so Feral Frenzy attacks on injured Survivors who are not suffering from Deep Wound will put them in the dying state? At the moment, about half the Survivors (in my experience) don't even bother to heal against the Legion.
    If the Legion uses their power, the Survivors will remain injured. If the Legion doesn't use their power, the Survivors have an easy time delaying the M1 hit because of the Legion's slow movement speed. If the Legion uses their power to try to put them down, the Legion gets stunned every single time, while the Deep Wound timer doesn't go down during the actual chase. It's a lose-lose-lose situation.

  • Someissues
    Someissues Member Posts: 1,604
    edited December 2018

    If legion has 115% base speed he would be fine. but as of right now his power is quite lackluster. You need 4 hits in frenzy to down someone, and the second hit will drain all your power.

    that means if an injured survivor is in close range, you don't want to use frenzy at all, but that leaves you vulnerable to loop, then if you try to use frenzy it gives a ton of free time for survivors to do more gens. that fatigue will not allow you to do mind games between pellets

    I really don't understand the fact that the timer doesn't go down while during a chase, that means you either go for 4 hits, or you give up the chase (Which then he will mend like its nothing), then if you try to chase normally you will get looped to death. and if you go for other survivors they'll mend right on the spot ignoring you completely

    i get the idea of you guys creating killers for fun, but please don't force all of us to play on high ranks. we are forced and that's no fun. either create a casual mode with no ranking so we can actually play weaker killers without any issues (And you don't ever need to buff them since there's no need)

    on high rank this is one of the worst killers right now, and any killers do well on low ranks

  • RSB
    RSB Member Posts: 2,258

    @Orion said:

    @Janick said:
    We will not remove the stun effect because the killer can cancel the Power at any time. We tried it during development and the cancel then M1 technique was used by some internally and we felt it was very unbalanced and very unfair.

    We are very careful at adding stun (cooldown, fatigue) effects on killers, we prefer to not add any (like the Spirit when possible) but in some case, we have no choice. The design principles, strategy, and gameplay of the game are based on cooldown and timing. It is very hard for new game mechanics to get away from it without impacting everything that was done previously.

    How about just making it so Feral Frenzy attacks on injured Survivors who are not suffering from Deep Wound will put them in the dying state? At the moment, about half the Survivors (in my experience) don't even bother to heal against the Legion.
    If the Legion uses their power, the Survivors will remain injured. If the Legion doesn't use their power, the Survivors have an easy time delaying the M1 hit because of the Legion's slow movement speed. If the Legion uses their power to try to put them down, the Legion gets stunned every single time, while the Deep Wound timer doesn't go down during the actual chase. It's a lose-lose-lose situation.

    That would be good, but Legion's main problem will still be the same - being almost unable to down a survivor. Sure, he would get extra seconds from survivors healing themselves, but extra time does not matter, when you can't down someone.

    Some survivors might get downed thanks to this change, but the percentage would be inversely proportional to the rank - the higher rank would mean lower percentage of downed survivors thanks to the said change. At high ranks survivors would not be so stupid to get downed/be near the killer while wounded, but without DWE.

    We need a good DWE change (DWE should not stop at 99% while mending, or something else), or a complete rework of a killer. Maybe a mimic, as it probably was intended at the beginning (see the trailer and name of the chapter). Legion would not be strong (hey, SWF), but maybe fun at least.

  • Delfador
    Delfador Member Posts: 2,552

    @Janick said:
    Hello

    Deep wound, in concept, is to create pressure and waste Survivors time, not to down survivors, similar to Reverse Bear Trap.

    Thanks for the feedback.

    Okay I have a question.

    Some legions hit you two times and then stop following you, allowing you to go to a nearby pallet and start to mend. You start to mend with 70% deep wound and with the new changes, the deep wound continues to go down while mending. After a couple of seconds later when the deep wound reaches 30%, they come back and use frenzy mode and down you. You can't use pallets and windows against him when you get the first 2 hits, and you still won't be able to use them when he finally comes to down you.

    The whole process takes less than 30 seconds and there is nothing a survivor could do in that situation especially if the killer equipped bloodhound and enduring.

    Killers like nurse, huntress and spirit can do the same thing but at least they require skill to be good at. It is easy to use the legion but this way is so effective that even if you are a good survivor and the killer is bad, there is almost no counter play.

    This thread actually explains it a lot better than I did, so you might want to take a look at it.

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/34584/by-design-legion-is-the-universally-least-fun-killer-in-the-game/p1

  • rafajsp
    rafajsp Member Posts: 475

    Still figuring out how or/and why i clicked this thread.

  • Keene_Kills
    Keene_Kills Member Posts: 649

    For the record, "Deep Wound" is the biggest downfall of Legion, of this chapter, and of the entire game at the moment after being attached to Borrowed Time. It's absolutely worthless, not a threat whatsoever, and only wastes about 15 seconds give or take. There's no use in tagging multiple survivors, as by the time you catch up and hit a 2nd or 3rd one, the fatigue wears off, and you begin a pursuit, the first (and/or second) tagged survivor has already mended and got right back on that gen. Deep Wounds needs looked at and reevaluated in the worst way right now.

  • Chuckyyo
    Chuckyyo Member Posts: 65

    @Janick said:
    We will not remove the stun effect because the killer can cancel the Power at any time. We tried it during development and the cancel then M1 technique was used by some internally and we felt it was very unbalanced and very unfair.

    We are very careful at adding stun (cooldown, fatigue) effects on killers, we prefer to not add any (like the Spirit when possible) but in some case, we have no choice. The design principles, strategy, and gameplay of the game are based on cooldown and timing. It is very hard for new game mechanics to get away from it without impacting everything that was done previously.

    Because getting the first hit is VERY easy, you would then just need to follow the survivor for 30 sec until they go down. We played that version for more than a week internally and it was absolutely terrible. Even Killer felt it was super cheap and unexciting.

    We also learned this from the Pig Reverse Bear trap.

    We also played with the 4.6 speed for a long time and to make him balanced, the power required to be WAY much slower than the current state (with longer cooldowns), this version was considered way less fun to play with and against.

    Thanks for these explanations!

    One of my problems with the Legion is that it's very hard to use the power for the second hit. The cooldown is only one of several aspects there. Another one is that it makes no difference if I hit an injuried or a healthy survivor with the power. After a frenzy hit, both are in the exact same state. So if I hit a survivor with a normal hit, I don't have much incentive to chase him with the power, because it makes the first hit feel wasted in a way. (Therefore, it also seems weird that you lose your power meter after a normal hit.)

    The other option would be to catch up to the survivor with the power and then deliver another normal hit. But that's barely possible because a) you lose your meter and b), the cooldown makes you lose some of the distance you caught up. What's great about the Spirit's power is that you can use it so fluently. Hit someone, let them run, follow them with the power and down them after reappearing, all in one motion. Just in terms of fun and game flow, chasing someone with Legion is way more clunky.

    So it's really hard to use the power for the second hit. Which is a shame, because the power is a lot of fun. It's super fun to chase someone at high speed and jump over pallets. Haunting someone down with 110% movement speed, on the other hand, isn't that fun. Which doesn't mean I'm asking for a higher base speed, I think the lower speed with a cool power is the right way. But because the power clearly is the more fun part, it would be cool to be able to use it in more situations.

  • Bravo0413
    Bravo0413 Member Posts: 3,647
    Wolf74 said:

    The stun and losing the prey that you just hit with Frenzy would be ok, IF the DW would actually do anything.
    Right now it is way to rare that someone will drop just because of getting affected by DW.

    Unless you get the bug that doesnt allow you to mend it's as you stated very rare.... mending makes this braindead if you drop during DW you're truly something else 🙄
  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,590

    @Janick said:
    Hello

    Deep wound, in concept, is to create pressure and waste Survivors time, not to down survivors, similar to Reverse Bear Trap.

    Thanks for the feedback.

    If it's purpose was just to waste time then you failed. By The time legion has tagged the second survivor the first one already has their mend half way done. Let's not even get to the point that none of that scenario is actually gonna get you a down either because then you're just chasing them like a hag with no traps.Not like they're gonna waste time healing either because why should they? He's no threat while injured.

  • The_Crusader
    The_Crusader Member Posts: 3,688
    Bravo0413 said:
    The_Crusader said:
    yeet said:

    @The_Crusader said:
    So say they're in the killer shack, you just use frenzy, vault the pallet, then cancel and immediately M1 them?

    Does that sound balanced to you?

    when nurse can just teleport over the pallet and smack them, yes it does lmao

    If nurse misses she gets a stun, legion doesnt.

    Nurse at least takes some skill to use, legion wouldnt

    And nobody ever said nurse was balanced. Its widely acknowledged shes the best because she breaks the game.
    Yeah breaks the game /\ ..... lemme just hop on nurse and give myself a 4k..... oh wait I'm a player who hasn't gotten used to her because she's difficult to master... so most likely I'll get my ass handed to me... nurse actually rewards killers for learning her where most other killers don't 
    Umm I addressed that where I said nurse takes skill to use. Legion does not. Anyone can pick him up and get a hit in frenzy.

    But nurse...yeah she avoids the mechanics of the game. Anyone can tell you that. Thats why shes the best.
  • Undying_Zombie
    Undying_Zombie Member Posts: 40
    edited December 2018

    @RSB said:

    @MegaWaffle said:

    @Janick said:
    Because getting the first hit is VERY easy, you would then just need to follow the survivor for 30 sec until they go down. We played that version for more than a week internally and it was absolutely terrible. Even Killer felt it was super cheap and unexciting.

    We also learned this from the Pig Reverse Bear trap.

    We also played with the 4.6 speed for a long time and to make him balanced, the power required to be WAY much slower than the current state (with longer cooldowns), this version was considered way less fun to play with and against.

    How large is this "We" group you keep mentioning and why does this "We" group decide what is fun and not fun for the rest of the community? Why wasn't there an extended PTB where community ideas where implemented (or the ideas you listed above) where the community at large could test and decide for themselves what felt "fun"?

    This is starting to sound like EA when they said "you just don't know what you want".

    Edited for spelling error.

    This "we" group is probably the same group, that played here:


    Switch to 0:46

    Watch the gameplay, then cry.

    PS. Hear what mattheu says, really good #########, telling a lot how devs treat killers.

    What bothers me here is he uses a argument that makes no sense against making good/strong killers. The claim that they would have to make stronger and stronger killers.. IE "A little stronger than Billy, then stronger than that ect" When they could simply.. and this is a shocker here I know.. Make them on par with Billy. Heck on par with Huntress even or Myers. They do not have to make them stronger and stronger.. I really do not get why he was thinking that at all.

    ( Not to mention the bad gameplay shown but I am letting that slide. )

    EDIT
    There is also the constant "Its fun its fun!" To who? I did not really find it fun that it takes over 5 hits to down someone as Legion. ( Another tiny edit as I forgot to add in the initial hit to put survivor into wounded state. )

    Post edited by Undying_Zombie on
  • Bravo0413
    Bravo0413 Member Posts: 3,647
    Delfador said:

    @Janick said:
    Hello

    Deep wound, in concept, is to create pressure and waste Survivors time, not to down survivors, similar to Reverse Bear Trap.

    Thanks for the feedback.

    Okay I have a question.

    Some legions hit you two times and then stop following you, allowing you to go to a nearby pallet and start to mend. You start to mend with 70% deep wound and with the new changes, the deep wound continues to go down while mending. After a couple of seconds later when the deep wound reaches 30%, they come back and use frenzy mode and down you. You can't use pallets and windows against him when you get the first 2 hits, and you still won't be able to use them when he finally comes to down you.

    The whole process takes less than 30 seconds and there is nothing a survivor could do in that situation especially if the killer equipped bloodhound and enduring.

    Killers like nurse, huntress and spirit can do the same thing but at least they require skill to be good at. It is easy to use the legion but this way is so effective that even if you are a good survivor and the killer is bad, there is almost no counter play.

    This thread actually explains it a lot better than I did, so you might want to take a look at it.

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/34584/by-design-legion-is-the-universally-least-fun-killer-in-the-game/p1

    Heaven forbid there is a tactic to down people with the legion.... the killers not tunneling, spreading pressure and then going back for the weakest target but because survivors get caught with your pants down you think this should be nerfed??.. the only thing that is wrong with this killer is that... yes too easy to use and chase dont end when the killer is learned.. 
  • Bravo0413
    Bravo0413 Member Posts: 3,647
    Delfador said:

    @Janick said:
    Hello

    Deep wound, in concept, is to create pressure and waste Survivors time, not to down survivors, similar to Reverse Bear Trap.

    Thanks for the feedback.

    Okay I have a question.

    Some legions hit you two times and then stop following you, allowing you to go to a nearby pallet and start to mend. You start to mend with 70% deep wound and with the new changes, the deep wound continues to go down while mending. After a couple of seconds later when the deep wound reaches 30%, they come back and use frenzy mode and down you. You can't use pallets and windows against him when you get the first 2 hits, and you still won't be able to use them when he finally comes to down you.

    The whole process takes less than 30 seconds and there is nothing a survivor could do in that situation especially if the killer equipped bloodhound and enduring.

    Killers like nurse, huntress and spirit can do the same thing but at least they require skill to be good at. It is easy to use the legion but this way is so effective that even if you are a good survivor and the killer is bad, there is almost no counter play.

    This thread actually explains it a lot better than I did, so you might want to take a look at it.

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/34584/by-design-legion-is-the-universally-least-fun-killer-in-the-game/p1

    Also....... LOL
  • purebalance
    purebalance Member Posts: 661

    @Janick said:
    Hello

    Deep wound, in concept, is to create pressure and waste Survivors time, not to down survivors, similar to Reverse Bear Trap.

    Thanks for the feedback.

    So you're supposed to create pressure, but never be able to land a killing blow basically? I can loop Legion forever essentially. The only time I've been downed by a Legion so far is when they were camping and I took 2 hits saving the person from the hook.

    Much less, the short duration it takes to mend and the fact that you can mend yourself makes it not really waste any time other than the killer's

  • akbays35
    akbays35 Member Posts: 1,123

    @Janick said:
    We will not remove the stun effect because the killer can cancel the Power at any time. We tried it during development and the cancel then M1 technique was used by some internally and we felt it was very unbalanced and very unfair.

    We are very careful at adding stun (cooldown, fatigue) effects on killers, we prefer to not add any (like the Spirit when possible) but in some case, we have no choice. The design principles, strategy, and gameplay of the game are based on cooldown and timing. It is very hard for new game mechanics to get away from it without impacting everything that was done previously.

    Yeah but due to his "design" the only way Legion if viable is tunneling and abusing moonwalking to force deep wound timer down, then survivors are forced to either mend and get hit or just get downed from deep wounds. This pretty much makes him an anti chase killer which sounds incredibly unfun for both sides.

  • Undying_Zombie
    Undying_Zombie Member Posts: 40

    @purebalance said:

    @Undying_Zombie said:

    @Janick said:
    Hello

    Deep wound, in concept, is to create pressure and waste Survivors time, not to down survivors, similar to Reverse Bear Trap.

    Thanks for the feedback.

    It does not actually do that in practice though. It needs adjustments. That or the killer needs adjustments in other places to compensate for a power that does not do what its meant to do. As is the killer is way too slow for what he can do. It does not make sense at all that his base movement is 110. ( same as Hag and Huntress )

    As is the way the power works currently is a bit buggy. As I know others have pointed out. The only way you guys can fix it is by making it be effected by terror radius instead. There is also almost no time wasted and no risk at all to mend. If its meant to waste time for the survivor it does not do a good job of it at all due to how fast you can do it. When doing it there is no threat as well since the timer stops. ( Something I do not think should happen with how the whole thing currently works. )

    Of course this is my opinion from my experience with playing with and against Legion. ( As well as observation of other people playing ) A opinion I know that will be ignored of course.

    You shouldn't be able to mend yourself. I'd even be ok if you could mend up to 75% and hold it there until someone finds you, but removing the ability to mend yourself would fix this killer 100%.

    This I do agree with and it was one of the things I said in the past during the PTB. ( I also know others who said it. ) I do not see them doing that at all sadly.. and doing what I am asking for is at least the half way point of it.

  • Bravo0413
    Bravo0413 Member Posts: 3,647
    The_Crusader said:
    Bravo0413 said:
    The_Crusader said:
    yeet said:

    @The_Crusader said:
    So say they're in the killer shack, you just use frenzy, vault the pallet, then cancel and immediately M1 them?

    Does that sound balanced to you?

    when nurse can just teleport over the pallet and smack them, yes it does lmao

    If nurse misses she gets a stun, legion doesnt.

    Nurse at least takes some skill to use, legion wouldnt

    And nobody ever said nurse was balanced. Its widely acknowledged shes the best because she breaks the game.
    Yeah breaks the game /\ ..... lemme just hop on nurse and give myself a 4k..... oh wait I'm a player who hasn't gotten used to her because she's difficult to master... so most likely I'll get my ass handed to me... nurse actually rewards killers for learning her where most other killers don't 
    Umm I addressed that where I said nurse takes skill to use. Legion does not. Anyone can pick him up and get a hit in frenzy.

    But nurse...yeah she avoids the mechanics of the game. Anyone can tell you that. Thats why shes the best.


    Yes you did address that she takes skill but you also state she breaks the game and that noboday says shes balanced... we can both agree that legion would OP AF if their frenzy 1 shot or if they had no forced cooldown after hitting someone 2x with their frenzy... it takes someone with a few thousand hours in order to "break the game" with nurse... not everyone is zubat or marth88...