Sadako slugging for condemnation
I personally have never gone against a full condemn build where a Sadako slugs, nor do I slug more when I play as her, even when I run Ring Drawing, but I do feel like Sadako has gotten some more attention and an unconventional playstyle has become popular. Ring Drawing is an incredible add-on and is the only way to spread condemnation aside from well timed teleports. Survivors with condemnation will spread it to whoever heals them. This includes being picked up from the dying state. Because Sadako's mini mori is not tied to hook states, slugging becomes a very effective use of time, spreading condemnation while you can pressure other survivors off gens, not spending time picking up and carrying them to a hook. Boons: Circle of Healing and Exponential and good medkits can be effective counterplay to this playstyle.
IMO this is one of her most viable ways to get multiple kills. Especially when paired with Iri Tape, Sadako can put on pressure across the map with a hit and run playstyle, making the most of her macro oriented power. Ring Drawing really turns Sadako into a more potent threat. Without it you have to work twice as hard to make condemnation a factor like other secondary goals (Pig Reverse Bear Traps, Pinhead's Chainhunt).
And Sadako NEEDS a good secondary objective considering how poor she is in chase. Yet I have to wonder if all the slugging is healthy for the game. Strategic slugging can be just as effective as tunneling and camping in the right circumstances, and normally I wouldn't complain. I don't really want to debate the "just do gens" argument here. But I've seen a surprising amount of DCs in response to slugging for condemnation spread. It can't be fun to spend half the game on the ground.
No other Killer benefits as much from slugging so I could see BHVR wanting to lessen the benefit of a frustrating playstlye. That said, Bubba can still facecamp more effectively than ever; Onryo's condemnation playstyle is far less toxic IMO. I guess it would be possible to limit the number of stacks Ring Drawing gives somehow. I think it should still work when picking up from the dying state. One stack per health state, reset upon hook. That way repeated slugging wouldn't give multiple stacks. Of course, this is a straight nerf and Onryo needs buffs. This restricted version of Ring Drawing could even be added basekit.
I think it could be difficult to balance Sadako's power because it is tied to a mini mori that is seperate from hook stages. Without giving condemnation stacks her teleport could be on a 20 second CD IMO. An interesting and strong add-on could be Videotape Copy with the trade off of a significantly reduced TV CD after teleports.
Sadako feels like her power to teleport is always being held hostage, either by the ridiculous CD itself, the fear of having to wait for that CD (if you aren't running Iri Tape), or survivors that turn off TVs. I have another forum discussion with lots of ideas to buff Sadako, and unless you basically rework her so that she has a true chase power, reducing TV CDs are non-negotiable. 70 second basekit TV CD plus other add-ons besides Iri Tape to reduce CDs. I think it'd be cool if hitting survivors reduced the CDs even further. Also, it'd be interesting if she got buffs based on either total condemnation stacks across the survivor team or number of TVs powered. The idea would be to encourage survivors to interact with TVs. In return for a power that can be used more frequently, making her feel much better and allowing her to really lean into a macro style, hit and run, mapwide pressure game, let survivors cleanse 4 stacks of condemnation again. More teleports also means more stacks of condemnation, so maybe remove or reduce passive condemnation when carrying a tape. I realize this is a delicate balancing act with a mori on the line.
To return to the idea of slugging, I'd love basekit Ring Drawing that either doesn't work when picking up slugs, or is limited in some other way, like hook states. Alternate ways to spread condemnation could be encouraged with new add-ons but reducing TV CDs is the main buff she needs, which will naturally increase how fast she can condemn survivors.
Because she has no chase power besides potential mindgames (I'd love an add-on to break pallets or vault faster when demanifested) she really needs the pressure her teleports give her. She gains additional pressure by not only chasing off gens but through condemnation. Removing 4 stacks instead of 3 when cleansing and even reducing passive condemnation would help keep condemnation from being too oppressive. And remember that she still has to catch you before being fully condemned means anything. I think buffs at a certain number of condemnation stacks would make Sadako more dynamic to play against. Ultimately, make condemnation less of an 'all-or-nothing' mechanic. This would make interacting with TVs more appealing and help her by sending survivors on a secondary objective trip across the map periodically.
TLDR Sadako buffs to her TV CDs should help her build condemnation pressure without the need to slug excessively. Limiting Ring Drawing is a worthwhile trade for increased map presence. She needs buffs or else slugging will remain one of the best ways to play her.
Comments
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It's an agonizing slow game style to the point where I would rather hold run while slugged until I bleed out 4 minutes later.
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It's a boring and relatively weak strat compared to what other killers can get just by chasing with better anti loop. It also heavily relies on bad communication aka solo queue to really shine with an iri. I don't think it's insanely overpowered, but I would prefer them buffing other parts of her kit instead of encouraging gameplay that actually wants you to be condemned irl.
Post edited by LeFennecFox on12 -
This is first post that I have read that says Sadako needs negative changes. This is last character that I would think would need negative changes.
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This is atrocious to face when playing solo.
It has to go, but im sad because itll likely just be all nerfs for her.
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I played against this recently. It is incredibly unfun.
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I try to bait survivors near the TV with knockout. Still, even with the focus being entirely on condemned, it's just so easy to counter. When survivors die to this I can almost always easily point to the moment they screwed up.
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Imagine doing that when you can just play tombstone piece Myers.
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You missed all the buffs I suggested. I was just saying that straight buffs like reducing her TV CDs too much (as I said, if you read, they NEED to be reduced.) would result in an oppressive amount of condemnation. Maybe you're okay with that, but I think you missed my point if what you took away from this post is that I want negative changes for Sadako.
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Compared to other Killers that HAVE some form of Anti-loop. Sadako doesn't have that, so this is a strat that some players turn to. Obviously it is easily countered by good communication, and the entire point of this post is how to buff other parts of her kit so she doesn't have to rely on a strat that feels terrible as survivor.
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her iri add-on reduces her TV to no cooldown as long you are hitting survivors and its not exactly oppressive with 0 cooldown TV'S. Ring drawing is her best add-on. Weakening ring drawing weakens her as a whole as the entire character is based around mori and condemn build-up. Your reducing her condemn build-up by changing the add-on. Reducing TV cooldown just makes her less dependent on pink add-on. Unfortunately, unless the cooldown is extremely low, like 30 seconds, Sadako's will still rely on the pink add-on because even at 60 seconds, pink add-on is better then any of her other add-on's for condemn build-up excluding ring drawing.
She gains additional pressure by not only chasing off gens but through condemnation. Removing 4 stacks instead of 3 when cleansing and even reducing passive condemnation would help keep condemnation from being too oppressive.
Just reading these two sentences is contradiction. Your saying she needs more pressure through condemn but your next two lines are making it easier for survivors to remove condemn so condemn is even less of threat and reducing condemn build-up so there is even LESS urgency to put a tape into a TV. Needs more pressure, gives two extra nerfs.
Sadako is m1 killer with almost no chasing power. The best way to counter slugging is to get better at the chase aspect of the game. She is seriously 5 gen chase loopable, like pig-level loopable. There is nothing toxic about Sadako's gameplay style. If your getting slugged by an M1 killer, Its learn to play issue.
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Lol at a thread asking for nerfs to condemnation. I thought I'd seen it all
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you didn't read the post. reduce TV CDs will give more than enough condemnation. thanks for your lack of input.
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As soon as sadako slugs one person everyone on my team pairs up and starts slapping tapes while one person is on a gen. This is in solo q so even with 0 communication I feel like the strat is known by most people already.
Kinda like the "no cleansing on plague til end game" agreement everyone has or the "1 person per gen" on legion.
Just leave them on the ground til you pop a gen, if theyre guarding the slug just bleed them out or trade. If one person gets to 3 condemn stacks remaining you body guard them on a tape until they get it in a VCR.
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Okay, what I'm hearing is that people think that straight buffs will not be too strong on Sadako. As someone who has played a lot, with a variety of add-ons, I can say that on average it's not that difficult to fully comdemn someone, even now. So with more frequent TV teleports I think it could easily be too much. But maybe that's okay because she is one of the worst Killers in chase period.
"I think buffs at a certain number of condemnation stacks would make Sadako more dynamic to play against. Ultimately, make condemnation less of an 'all-or-nothing' mechanic. This would make interacting with TVs more appealing and help her by sending survivors on a secondary objective trip across the map periodically."
Gaining more stacks of condemnation per minute would force survivors to actually care about TVs. The only reason I suggest a trade-off by increasing cleansing is because OVERALL CONDEMNATION WOULD STACK QUICKER. If you all simply want more moris, then by all means. Slugging will still be very viable b/c why waste time hooking when getting someone fully condemned happens on a more regular basis. I think that more teleports forcing survivors to cleanse more often is the goal. IMO you should only get an instakill when you work hard for it or the survivor screws up.
Honestly, I just want exposure and healthy discussion so that the Devs see that a few people actually care to see Sadako buffed.
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"Just reading these two sentences is contradiction. Your saying she needs more pressure through condemn but your next two lines are making it easier for survivors to remove condemn so condemn is even less of threat and reducing condemn build-up so there is even LESS urgency to put a tape into a TV. Needs more pressure, gives two extra nerfs."
I'm suggesting to speed up the entire process. More teleports -> more condemn -> more pressure to interact with TVs. That's MORE URGENCY. Needs more pressure, gains more pressure with giant teleport buffs, sacrifices something so survivor mains aren't crying.
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Also, if anyone is interested in some ideas for buffs, this is my other thread. Please stop assuming I actually want Sadako nerfed. I don't think slugging for Ring Drawing condemnation is that bad but I've seen enough DCs to understand that it's not fun for survivors. I want to buff the rest of her kit so she has more viable playstyles. You could make Ring Drawing stronger for all I care. It's her best add-on but she needs something more.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/324928/sadako-needs-buffs#latest
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I usually die to this strat not because it's strong.
It's just SOOOO boring that i just play recklessly to die and move on to next game.
It reminds me of the dedicated 3 gen doctors back in the days.
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I faced this in solo last night, but it was executed very poorly by the killer. Down to 1 gen with no one near condemned and they still kept trying.
It's annoying to go against, not as bad as a slowdown Legion.
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I honestly haven't gone against it myself, and I think that there are not that many Sadako players out there compared to other Killers like Legion. I find Legion rather annoying when, in solo q, I'm just not far enough away from my teammates. Any playstyle can be done well or poorly. Like any strategy it's more effective against solo q teams, but no matter what, having a style that revolves around slugging is not going to be fun as the survivors. It's unfortunate to hear of Sadakos trying this strategy but not understanding how it works, like slugging those with no stacks of condemnation. Some people hear of a good way to easily make Sadako more viable and they jump at it.
I think it works because unless you have Exponential (you don't really want to waste your Unbreakable, but you could) one of your teammates has to gain a stack when picking up. It just makes them more likely to have to do a Tape run and that wastes some time and potentially they get found and cut off. It's an alternative way to play, and a lot of times you probably don't come out ahead by enough to make a difference.
I'd like Sadako to get buffs that are much more effective than this slugging strategy.
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...people don't realise they need to look at their condemned?
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we really complaining about a D tier killer.......
i can't say im annoyed, im just disappointed
i main sadako and i barely have an options i never tried the slugging condemned build, but i think by this point nobody should complain about her because she is somehow more rare to see than trapper
probably because she is worst than him
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This whole "X killer is weak so it's ok when people use them to play in the most boring/scummy/unfun way possible for both sides" argument needs to stop already.
Same with busted add-ons that happen to be on lower tier killers (Tombstone, Tuft of Hair as examples)
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so let's say a certain killer is weak, what type of gameplay are expecting exactly?
normal gameplay? you know not tunning or camping or slugging, because that's a insta loss the weaker the killer is the more person has to "tryhard"
and don't talk about addons, what's a tombstone myers gonna do, watch over you as fix the gen?
and are u really expecting let's say a trapper to not tunnel or slug while the gens are flying?
and what's so fun about survivors anyways, these days don't do anything, just gen rushing, i get 5 devour stacks almost every game, high mmr is extremely stale and boring and tunneling the only way to win because 2 gens pop AT THE FIRST CHASE
so don't tell me they are unfun scummy or boring when in the meanwhile survivors are running the sweatiest build
Post edited by AcelynnBen on1 -
It’s more like Sadako is putting pressure on multiple fronts that require the survivors to be doing a lot of multitasking so it becomes more likely that in the process they’ll accidentally leave Condemned unchecked too long and get punished for it. Between having to revive survivors, lots of chases over and over, teleporting around the map to keep the pressure up, and having to keep track of the TVs as well as the normal objectives of gens and hooks, it’s not that hard to accidentally lose track.
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TLDR Sadako buffs to her TV CDs should help her build condemnation pressure without the need to slug excessively. Limiting Ring Drawing is a worthwhile trade for increased map presence. She needs buffs or else slugging will remain one of the best ways to play her.
I’ll never understand why people complain about slugging versus being hooked. If you’re slugged you can at least move around, you can’t do anything at all on the hook. And slugging Sadako is getting into chases more quickly and is directly interacting with all the survivors at once versus, say, facecamping a hook. To say a hit and run heavy slugging style is “boring” like some people in this thread seem to think is bizarre to me. How is constantly being chased “boring”?
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I think people conflate Killers who slug to watch a team bleed out for 4 minutes with Killers who feel like they don't have time to hook so they move on. 100% would rather be slugged than face camped, but if the Killer camps my body on the ground it's basically the same thing, right?
Maybe I'll edit my original post but let me be clear, I don't condone this playstyle but I'm not complaining about it. It's just a trend I've seen pop up. Whether you think it's a problem or not I think everyone can agree that Sadako needs buffs badly.
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If you don't see the issue with someone just wanting to play slug-a-thon all game long then I honestly don't know what to tell you. We can talk about certain killers needing buffs/QoL changes any day of the week, I'm all for that. But going out of your way to play like a this is not the way. If you're struggling that much to do well with any other playstyle then the only advice I can give is to either learn to 'git gud' or play a different killer. Sadako is just one of 29 after all.
According to your logic, survivors who put on Boil Over and Flip-Flop and use a Dead Dawg offering and purposely keep going down in the one room on the second floor of the saloon so that they're guaranteed to deny the killer from hooking them is completely fine because Boil Over is a D-tier perk that you would otherwise never get any real major value out of in most situations. You're no better than them.
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
I have run into the build 5-7 times now. I have concluded I will be disconnecting going foward. The games take far too long and the Sadako usually ends up with no moris, just a bunch of kills due to bleed out. In solo queue I simply cannot deal with it.
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Honestly I really don't understand why people hate being slugged so much. Whenever a killer leaves me on the ground it's just meme and value town.
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wanna best part about your whole thing
I ACTUALLY HAD SURVIVORS with flip flop and boil over and they sent me to Dead Dwag and did exactly what u said and its was impossible to hook them
and i think u kinda broke everything about your whole logic by saying "git gud" because let's be honest this whole community just spams that when u play nicely and then complain when u tryhard
and that's the whole thing about this game, If u ArE LoSiNg wITh ThIs KiLleR JuSt sWiTcH, yea but what's the point of that killer even existing if im just not gonna play him or her and reminder 70% of the killers are weak
but you know i might as just git gud, run nurse, star struck, some few aura reading perks and call it day, but hey at least im not slugging am I? (said every nurse player ever lol)
and im not defending slugging but in certain situations slugging is the only thing that works
and let's be honest since when did survivors or killers care about what the other side feels, all those people who wanted to have fun left when boons got introduced, so u might get nice players that are playing nicely and not being douches and u are tryharding and then next game when u wanna relax u get a bully squad, so the solution is always to perma tryhard
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Did you try picking them up so that Flip-Flop doesn't do anything and walking down the stairs?
Maybe I'm misinterpreting the situation, but that seems to be an easy counter - I've never seen Flip-Flop/Boil Over as an issue since Boil Over was gutted.
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If you want this to stop then maybe buff the killer so she has a chance outside of an easily counterable playstyle. Her "boring playstyle" is because she is so poorly designed that that is the only way she's getting kills on average. The answer is to get her out of bottom 5 killer status. But I am not surprised to see posts that are the modern day version of "Nerf old original Freddy"
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It's a VERY niche build that emerged in an attempt to make one of the worst killers in the game viable. People love the license and want to play her but she is so WEAK. She needs a balance once over very badly (soon hopefully).
Can you really blame this playstyle becoming prevalent when she has nothing else going for her?
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I have no understanding of it either. in general survivor complain about anything that makes them lose/die. same reason why survivor complain about tunneling and camping killers. I believe survivor complained about hit & run wraith so they got his post-speed boost and all-seeing add-on nerfed. I'm concern about buffing her mainly because she might turn to be wraith 2.0 where she might get improved and then weakened to worse then before. Its not too surprising for someone like OP to think sadako who is hit & run slugging killer to get complaints.
You know the drill, If your camping, slugging and tunneling survivors, your just a baby killer.
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that's the thing im still confused about to this day, even tho i didn't slug somehow they escaped almost instantly and i didn't drop from high ground either, here is the game btw
i was just doing daily but im still really confused about it
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