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Is tunneling easier than ever now?
Here's some food for thought - is tunneling easier than ever?
Now that DS is dead,even with the introduction of baseline BT now that killers lose infinitely less distance on hitting the survivor, especially with the extreme usage of STBFL.
Off The Record was insane on the PTB, but as it got to live it became..quite worthless. What does it do?
If you're tunneled immediately, nothing. If you're not tunneled, probably nothing,unless you're a coordinated SWF. Is that not terrible design?
I've never seen quite so much tunneling as post 6.1.0. A big DS buff is in order.
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P.S. I am not just going off "me being tunneled". I don't care about DS anymore as Killer. If I'm playing to win I just hit through BT instantly and kill the survivor moments later and when I get hit by DS once per year 6 seconds later I'm back on the survivor and kill them.
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No I don't think so. I'd say it's easy, but that 6.2.0 helped it a bit. The month and a half between 6.1.0 and 6.2.0 was when it was easier than ever.
Plus to tunnelers, OTR isn't even that big of a threat, because they just instantly smack the survivor post-unhook and OTR and DH have both been disabled.
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I really don't think the basekit BT is nearly enough to do anything about STBFL/mobility killers.
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Not really.
I think DS should be reversed to 5 seconds. But apart from that it isn´t really dead.
How is OtR worthless?
What i see more, is people trying to get a body block hit with basekit BT active. Which then could result in the killer capitalizing on that. Does that make tunneling easier?
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Oh it's definitely not perfect but 6.2.0 helped just a little smidgen compared to the atrocity that was no bt 6.1.0
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- Survivors now get less speed boost distance after a hit.
- Killers now recover more quickly from after a successful hit.
- DS is dead.
- Gens now take 1.5 minutes each.
Result: Camping/tunneling has become more efficient and easier than before.
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Basekit protection gives a decent 7% speedboost for 10 seconds to get into safe place. But when survivors use it to bodyblock they straigh up asking to be tunneled.
In my opinion it's much harder to tunnel when unhooked survivor runs away instead of trying to protect his rescuer.
I was always saying that best antitunneling perk is Sprint Burst. When you hooked you always have exhaustion off. If you still feel tunneled, try to use Sprint Burst instead of DS or DH.
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Aganist bad survivor? Yes most of the times. Aganist good survivors? Absolutely no.
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this
and yeah survivors quite often use base BT to body block instead of running away. It happens like all the time. And if they happen to get hit again, 100% they will be chased down again and hooked. It's far easier for the killer to go after the rescuer instead of dealing with the base BT, but if the unhooked survivor makes it difficult, who is to blame...
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Off The Record does nothing if you are camped AND tunneled, otherwise 80 seconds is insanely strong. If you just roughly manage to start a good chase without dropping pallets because you are safe and AFTER the hit start dropping pallets as well, you can waste so much time.
Regarding tunneling: the tools to counter tunneling got so strong that it literally doesn't make sense for several situations to not tunnel. If you get the hook exchange, it will make sense to take it as killer, but also most likely you will be good to chase the unhooked survivor afterwards. And if the unhook goes through before you can get the hit, it basically doesn't matter who you chase regarding chase time, because you will need 2 hits anyway. As it makes no sense to wait out BT (it can be 10s, 20s or 80s and there is no value in waiting out to know if the unhooker had BT or not) as killer you just hit the unhooked survivor. 2 hits on unhooker or 2 hits on unhooked is the same, so pick the one that got a hook state less until sacrifice.
So regarding it with this POV, tunneling got harder because you can't wait out the BT or have a chance to not have an endurance protection. But it is more valuable because it makes no difference regarding chase time.
Camping was never a valuable strategy unless survivors rewarded you to do so by leaving all the gens and the team staring at the hooked person without going for the unhook. With Reassurance and Kindred being more common perks it would even be a bad strategy today and could outplay camping Deadlock killers.
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I'd argue second stage proxy camping with dead lock is still extremely strong.
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But why ever wait it out? With every second killer running STBFL and quite a few survivors using DH it's incredibly beneficial to just hit them and if not just force them to mend,but also go on to tunnel them.
On the topic of it not doing anything while you're camped and tunneled - that is my point. OTR does not promote fun gameplay.
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now there is such a thing as "proxy camping" also?
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? wdym
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Wraiths are guilty of tunneling. It's happened to me personally, they just wait out base BT and follow you cloaked for the speed boost. Also had a Wraith yesterday tunnel Claudette, as in I'd try to bodyblock for her cause she was dead on hook and he would not go for me.
Face-camping I see less, but camping does happen on the daily when I play, like the killer hanging around the area waiting for you to go for the save at 5-4 gens.
Reassurance is behind a pay wall. I have Rebecca though I haven't played her yet. And for it to work you have to be close to the person hooked otherwise if you're at the other end of the map it's not efficient to run across it and use it on them and in soloq it feels like you need to pair it with an aura reading perk for your team so you stick around them in case they are hooked. It's obviously much stronger in SWF as you can co-ordinate and know where your team is.
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Only when your teammates seem incapable of punishing it, which is common in solo with its terrible matchmaking.
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With all the positive changes the game got for killers i honestly can't understand why FELLOW Killer MAINS still tunnel and Camp and more often than not that's whats happening.
And then there's this stigma for some killers, like Bubba, it's unbelievable the amount of times you face Bubba's and it's unbelievable that almost every single one of them is just contempt with Camping and tunneling, why!? Have you never seen a good killer play Bubba!? I admitedly don't play Bubba but that's simply my personal taste, i'll always gravitate towards stealth killers so Ghostface and Sadako satiate that for me. Aside from that I can always rely on Legion and Pyramid Head for my variety.
Gens are slower.
You kick faster.
You recover faster from attacks.
Survivors have less of a speed boost when hit. These last 3 combine mean Survivors get absolutly nowhere unless they are already in a strong position but even so you can afford breaking 1 or 2 pallets and make that safe zone useless for everyone for the rest of the match.
Killers still have ABSOLUTLY DISGUSTING BUILDS. Plaything Pentimento is like having a 1 hour match. Pain Res + DMS is still a thing. OverBrine is effective. BrineEruption is effective and applies Hindered. Jolt has high value because of being a free access perk.
There's no real reason to Camp or Tunnel. Just use Discordance or Lethal Pursuer ( which is absolutly Busted!) or BBQ to get mid match information. LEthal Pursuer should not even exist. It effectively eliminates any attempt at stealth in the early stage of a match.
Yeah survivors can bring Distortion, or in my case when i play Survivor, Object of Obsession. You wanna see me spawn? Well i wanna see you too.
The best defense Survivors have now is Shift W, running early. Which to me is atrocious, it's a skilless thing, just make a decent path towards loops and get away soon enough to make it not worth for the killer to chase you.
Most people now can't use DH because timming is required, i've failed plenty of DH usages but i'm still gonna use DH, when i get it to work then it really works and most often than not killers gave up on chasing me, a third hit becomes too much but if that's the case why do people play Nemesis? You gotta 3 hit with the Tentacle so if i manage to DH a Tentacle then it's a 4 hit chase.
IT's so odd to see killers now refusing to chase people when before they'd chase people for minutes and only complain if gens got done but now that they can make gens incredibly slow, they don't want to chase.
I honestly don't think it's Hyperfocus or Prove Thyself that are issues regarding gens. I barely run into them and i barely use them.
My 3 most used Perks as Survivor are DH, Lightweight (which admitedly helps immensly not being chased or escaping chases) and Object of Obsession, call OoO busted all you want but i'm still taking a gigantic risk, i've been tunneled because of it, but i also made sure to waste as much time as possible for killers. My match results are pretty much the same as when i don't use OoO, i'm actually more of a team player when i don't run OoO so i'll probably just spend more time doing gens and Totems if i'm not using OoO but then i have to rely on my teammates ability to run the killer while i can do gens or Totems.
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Nah. It was way, way easier when basetime BT was just 5s. Now, with BT giving you 20s of endurance, it isn't worth it anymore to run behind unhooked survivors and wait out the timer. But I gladly give them a "welcome back on your feet" slap and send them off into the trial to mend.
But honestly, since the big patch I have been hit by DS maybe 3 or 5 times? I can't remember, because it didn't bother me at all. DS has totally lost its teeth and if anything its a minor inconvenience to a normal M1 killer and absolutely trivial to the likes of Nurse, Blight or Spirit. Many players think that the 5s stun should be put back into the game and I am all for it. A one time effect like DS should have some impact, especially if its anti tunneling, and not just delay the killer in a way that they can't even scratch their nose before they run back into the action.
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Another thing i have clearly seen is a rise in new killers.
I can say this because now was also the time i've really started playing survivor so while my Survivor started low MMR and low skill i could clearly see how manny new people were playing killer, the difference is it was easier for me switching roles, i already understand what a killer should be doing so i can some what accuratly read a killers plan. My issue as survivor was pathing and looping. As killer you can't really force a survivor to go where you want, you just have to outplay them at the tile of their choosing but as a survivor i can lead the chase to where it works for me and/or the Team. That's what i've been learning and i gotta say i can understand why Survivors sometimes feel so strong. When you get both skills of understand what a killer should do and knowing where to lead a killer to, it' becomes so hard for killers to chase survivors.
This fact alone will explain why there's an increase in Tunneling and Camping. These new killer players don't have the knowledge and experience to confidently take chases even if they have experience as survivor, they still have to get used to being in the passenger seat. So the easiest way out to minimize chases, chase time and survivors winning will be to tunnel and camp.
For the sake of arguing we could bring "Competitive" into the discussion, where these concepts and way of thinking are exactly the same. "Comp" players understand both sides to a very in depth degree which is why "Comp" play is all about the nastiest plays.
IT isn't to say Survivor is OP because honestly it doesn't feel OP to me, i've had plenty of times where i got completly destroyed by killers even when i was running my prefered build and it didn't come down to a massive skill difference just the moment by moment. A bad play by me means i'm down and it means the team has effectively lost 50% of the capacity cause someone has to come save me, depending on how that play goes the team could go down to 25% capacity. The chances of the team going down to 25% capacity are high because if the killer gets to pressure someone before the rescue happens then thats 75% of the team doing nothing cause the third guy still has to save me.
A team losing 75% capacity + whatever slowdown the killer has is a huge thing to consider. THe only way to affect this huge thing is to have survivors work on multiple gens, to ensure any slowdown can be afforded because it's being divided by multiple gens, which significantly decreases it's impact on every single gen.
Now if survivors are spread then their input is reduced. Which leads to them either teaming up in pais or having Toolboxes and Perks to help them achieving a higher level of INDIVIDUAL input.
This by itself wouldn't be so problematic unless ofc every single survivor brought the strongest stuff, in that case you're overcompensating which is clearly busted and too much.
And this is the problem. Not only are the items strong enough to make individual survivors stronger but theres 4 survivors, the increase in efficiency of a single unit benefits the whole team. If more units are more efficient then the efficiency bonus overwhelms the killer slowdown.
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Hmmm...I wonder why do they do that?
Probably because the killer was camping the hook and they got injured while trying to unhook.
Stop pretending like tanking a hit with BT would change anything. Since you were already camping the hook, you'd most likely go for the same survivor anyway.
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You rarely run into anyone using Prove Thyself?! That’s insane… I can tell you when I’m playing killer, there is almost always AT LEAST one person running it. Always prove thyself + fully loaded toolboxes, it’s ridiculous. Consider yourself lucky 😅
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Not at all. you hook someone, and you chase the next person you can find, right?
That's what the killer is supposed to do. Usualy the next guy is sprinting full speed towards the hook in my games and I follow, unhooks and I get the unhooked survivor running towards me. Don't make excuses for them. Then of course if I hit the survivor trying to body block with his free protection, then he will 100% get back on the hook, and they usually cry a lot in the endgame about tunneling, which doesn't bother me at all. The way I see it, people will call out camping and tunneling far more oftan than it actually happens. Usually every time they lose the game because it hurts their ego admitting they aren't actually that good. Oh and here I even heard a new thing "proxy camping" :)) basically everything is a camping even if you are not even in the area
People make up the funniest things. Anyway, we all play by the rules of the game, it's pointless to try to come up with new ones which have nothing to do with the game. The devs added base BT to help getting away. If they use it to body block, it's their problem really. And tunneling is perfectly fair then, since they aren't actually running away, so it's on them.
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To be honest, if tunneling and camping was more common maybe the devs would be doing something about it. As it is now it's reserved only for the sweatiest. If every killer started doing it and got more kills, it might see some change because the statistics would change.
It really is the most efficient way to play.
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How are they suppose to know it's more common if they can't even tell if someone is flying across the map or insta pop gens in their own game?
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Yeah true. I simply meant that the killrate would probably be different than it is now. Although it is not that common. if every killer was playing this way I think it would be hard for it to not be reflected on the killrate and escape rate., that even they could not ignore.
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It's been much more easier, indeed
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LOL what? A perk that was conceived with the purpose of acting as an anti-tunneling perk (and even then, it still didn't do it too efficiently) has to be paired with a specific place in mind to go down? Are you for real, buddy? So you are implying you need to use an "anti-tunneling" perk by wanting to get tunneled in a determined spot? It's something that should help you NOT to get tunneled, buddy, it shouldn't matter even if you get downed in a corner where there isn't everything but 50k hooks.
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Try to see if it really was a camping from killer's perspective.
I usually don't camp. I prefer to check gens after hooking survivor. But when I go away from hook and I see someone instantly running to unhook I change my target to this survivor. Don't expect killer ignore dumb play from survivors and capitalize on survivors' mistakes. Playing fair doesn't mean being tolerant for stupidity.
If you want to unhook, make sure it's safe. If you being chased your best option might be lead killer away from hook and let rescue to someone else. If killer drops the chase and stays around the hook, then okay, he is camping. Elseway killer is chasing someone around the hook becasue what option does he have?
When I chase survivor that going to unhook of course I injure him. And if rescuer is injured why would I chase 107% speed survivor with base bt protection? Of course I go for rescuer. Only thing could stop me from that is unhooked person bodiblock instead of running away. While unhooked person bodyblock, rescuer already ran away, so who is my only target left?
Now I'm camper and tunneler because I didn't ignore survivors doing dumb ######### in front of me.
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I don't think so, I still run DS + OTR since 6.1.0 and it's insane the amount of time it buys against a tunneling killer. Kind of sad that we have to dedicate half of my build just to play the game, but at least OTR does something even without being tunneled.
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The statistics did change though lol
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*gets tunnelled off hook with not much option to choose where you go down because it's a Killer very good at tunneling*
Ah yes. Truly a skill issue.
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Actually never tunneled someone before 6.1, and after.=)
But i'd say there is no way it's easier to tunnel after 6.1 with basekit bt. Sure DS is a quite sad perk now but still.
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I suggest you play someone who takes good advantage of STBFL or blight/wesker.
It's relatively easy,especially if the survivor dares to dedicate a slot to DH or OTR and you just hit them off hook. Imagine a 6 stack STBFL clown with a bottle thrown to the hook as a survivor unhooks. He comes into range just as it's done and hits the surv with 7 stacks now,the killer barely has a cooldown,Survivor has the basekit BT + the now severely reduced injured speed boost.
If there's a slight dead zone (which if you got downed there there probably is) - you might just be ######### immediately. And that's a ######### clown. What if you get hit by someone who can follow up with a high speed M2?
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Well, before 6.1 if you got unhooked without BT, you go down instantly after a hook.=) Now even if killer have STBFL, you still at least have more time to reach a pallet or window to at least start the chase again. xD
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I feel like your HEAVILY overrating the changes to the hit cooldown and survivor speed after getting hit. It's noticeable but to go as far as to say it makes the survivor go nowhere? That's just wrong.
Pentimento + Plaything really only works on indoor maps. Otherwise you don't need to break the totems.
People not being able to use dead hard is very clearly a skill issue. Either that or bad connection/servers..
I agree with no real reason to camp (outside of endgame) but tunneling is still kinda of a necessity for certain killers and a good chunk of maps with said killers. How is lethal pursuer busted? It's good but it literally only can help once unless you bring another aura reading perk which means your using two of your perk slots just to find someone.
Just cause you don't run into Hyperfocus or Prove thyself often doesn't remove the fact that they are issues.
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It would be more dramatic though if killers played optimally and didn't play nice.
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I feel like you're heavily underrating how much the hit cooldown and injured speed boost gave to survivors. As someone who plays both sides - zoning because of it has been easier and as survivor I physically feel that reduction and think that I would've made it way,way further pre 6.1.0.
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Individually they are minor changes but combined they are quite effective. And without DH for Distance it's a very big chunk of distance that survivors don't have anymore. Survivors can have Overcome sure but Killers can have STBFL and STBFL's power will outweight Overcome. And STBFL never got a change and neither did Overcome so if we add them to the equation then killers are in advantage here.
Finding Totems in the middle of corn isn't for everyone for example, even less if you consider how unoptimized and unflexible the games graphical options are on everything outside of PC. I can't find Totems if i'm playing on Console. It's really horrible, i've had that experience for 1 year before deciding to just restart on PC.
Hyperfocus and Prove Thyself by themselves aren't an issue, the issue is Survivors get to stack multiple things by themselves and even more when they are together.
A Solo survivor will make use of Hyperfocus no doubt but the Prove Thyself value is not there. It's the same as comboing Pain Res into DMS. It is excessive that you're already regressing the gen plus denying access to it. Personally i'd rather have Pain Res get a small buff than dealing with a 2 on 1. But and this is the important part, people will still combo DMS with Pain Res if Pain Res got a buff.
Same thing as survivors will stack and combo hyperfocus, Fast Track, Prove Thyself, Toolboxes, Stakeout, etc...
PEOPLE WILL DO WHATEVER MAKES THINGS EASIER. Same as tunneling and camping.
There are solutions, either nerf everything and the games get slowed down which most likely only benefits killers but then you can also nerf slowdowns to make sure the game isn't too slow or prevent the comboing and stacking aspects.
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With the buff to basekit BT, I wouldn't consider it easier, but without the risk of DS killers still keep doing it without much punishment.
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Crazy that the killer doesn't really allow you to decide where you do go down, right? Almost as if he is trying to kill you, when he tunnels, and you are more than probably FORCED into a given direction. Couple that with the fact that not everyone plays SWF and boom, you are up in a dead zone, with no pallets, as they have probably been wasted by someone who didn't even loop around them. Man, crazy world we live in, huh? A world where some people act as some know-it-all cocky keyboard lions. But maybe you are right, the next time I get tunneled, I'll try to ask the killer if he can wait to down me where I would want to be, that will surely work out just as you picture it.
Let's put it like this. Basically, what you are saying (which, by the way, makes no sense at all), is something along the lines of:
"I have to take an exam at school. The teacher will ask me stuff, but there are things I don't know. But if I tell the teacher to ask me a specific question (that I know), he will surely do as I asked." I mean, please, come on.
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Tunnelers usually leave hook though so you can run away before they can hit otr away unless they're facecamping as well. But old ds was definetely better. Last game I had this nurse tunneling me I didn't have otr though but she left hook and returned once I was unhooked I got healed and she went after me but my teammates helped her to have easy tunnel they cleansed haunted ground and undying for her so I was always chased being one shot anyway. Both times she managed to down me just before the timer ended. Otr would saved me.
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bruh I play pyramid head. it's as easy as ever
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Devs hate survivors, obnoxious perks like STBFL, eruption, knock out, noed are totally fine for them they don't see any issue, but the only decent anti tunnel perk has to be nerfed to the ground, 5 seconds was already weak btw, 3 is a joke
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OTR do nothing against real hard tunneling if killer hit you in the 10 seconds of basekit BT, it's the same than having no anti tunnel perk... your OTR is gone and you can't use dead hard because deep wound
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Ok but in that case OTR has no value, it's the exact same thing than getting hit with your basekit BT you're running an anti tunnel perk that do nothing against tunneling, it could be 600 seconds instead of 80 it's still the same problem
I'm talking about actual tunneling when killer chase only you until you're dead and never stop, old DS was better than OTR
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The amount of times I down a survivor and go back to the previous hook and I get body blocked is at least several a night. Your bias is acting up. I only tunnel when a survivor body blocks with bt and I will lose the game to do so if necessary.
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Yes... cause like OP said the 3 second stun DS gives
Also the fact that chasing (as Killers) got a basekit buff (recovery from hitting a Survivor and kicking)
So is it safe to say the wrong things were buffed???
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You see, I never knew my iron maiden lightborn discordance and distressing Doc was an ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING BUILD
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Care to explain exactly what happens to base BT and OTR if you are immediately hit after being unhooked?
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Ah yes, this speed boost straight off the hook definitely grants you the ability to choose where you go down.
Never mind the fact that recovery time was shortened and god forbid if the person has STBFL.
Yep, you're definitely going places -- ie the closest available tile.
But according to you, players should choose a better place to go down.
Smart.
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