Killers are the ones who should get base kit perks, not survivors...
So let me get this straight...
Survivors get free unbreakable every 45 seconds because in 1 in 20 games a Nurse might slug 4 people to end the game early (happens mostly against 4-man overly altruistic SWF which is good). First off, how does that even happen? Secondly, if you got slugged as 4 men, you probably deserved to lose...
Meanwhile, killers literally have to run gen regression perks on every build to even to have a chance to win a game. That is irrespectively on how they play. It's so prelavant/needed for most of the killers that you might even call it base kit at this point.
So why is gen regression/gen slowdown not part of the killer's base kit considering that it's basically a must nowadays to have a chance to win the game?
Comments
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Sigh.
Okay, baseline UB has some issues (cough Twins cough) but it's a very positive change overall.
Killers don't really need much baseline now, because they got some pretty hefty buffs.
The UB change is more to make slug heavy strategies a bit easier to counter in solo play, as there are killers who'll slug people with knockout and just bleed them out for the luls.
I'm completely okay with it, provided:
- Twins get reworked (22s means that people could pick themselves up before you can even get to them).
- Spots on maps where you can't pick people up/they can clip into geometry when going down are fixed.
- Double locker flashlights are fixed.
- Hook distribution on some maps (Swamp, Midwich, Badham, Eyrie) is improved so you can't turn areas of the maps into deadzones with a single sabo.
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I think twins will get there update maybe this Tuesday cause they did announce after Ghostface and legion twins were next to get changed
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You mean like 2.5 stacks of STBFL, tier 1 Brutal Strength, and a mini PGTW on every kick?
Also you don't have to stack slowdown to win. Anything which can interrupt survivors (Infectious, for example) bricks Hyperfocus, which is the common point of complaint.
The only thing I want to see is base regression doubled to 0.5c/s instead of 0.25c/s, with Call of Brine and Overcharged adjusted to max out at 150% each (0.75c/s, and both together would be 1c/s).
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Disagree heavily. The so-called "killer patch" was a neutral patch at best. Perks on both sides got nerfed/changed. Faster pallet breaking speed/faster recovery is a placebo in most cases. DH is in similar strength as old DH (at least in high MMR). M1 killers are still in the garbage can.
The 10+ secs on gens sounds good theoretically, but in practice, the gens go even faster. This is because survivors are now using every tool in their arsenal to push gens (toolboxes, prove thyself, hyperfocus, split on gens, etc.). I've seen more BNP's in the last month than probably last 2 years. They always had that option pre-patch to push gens even faster, but some players liked to play chill because the game was very easy on survivors. Nowadays though, everyone just sweats on gens and plays super efficiently.
The only argument you could make that killer got buffed is because of easier tunnelling. Which was TRUE for 1 patch, until they added base kit BT, buffed it, and now it's much harder. Not even speaking about off the record and upcoming base kit BT...
What is called "killer patch" was a neutral patch at best, especially considering how big buffs survivors got in the next 2 following patches after it. They added 10+ secs on gens, and then the next patch literally added a gen rush perk lmao...
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I think killers don’t need more buffs with a 61% kill rate.
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And how many times do these changes actually result in you getting down or an additional kill? Or a gen being stopped? These changes feel good, but in reality, they do almost nothing. This was a BHVR saying "look, we care about you too killers!" after which they just started releasing survivor patches one after another.
Also, for the first time, I am seeing someone use Infectious Fright as gen defence argument. I think you meant slugging... in which case, it will be much harder to do next patch ;)
IMO, they should've added old corrupt as base kit, and then nerfed top killers. Corrupt Intervention was the healthiest killer park in the game to exist which unfortunately got nerfed hard...
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It absolutely wasn't a 'neutral' patch - kill rates went up significantly.
Killers are, for the most part, fine now. Some need buffs, some need nerfs and one or two need a rework. Overall though, killers are doing well.
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I don't think it's a case of 'this side deserves base kit perks more than the other', it's a case of addressing issues within the game. Regardless of what anyone says to argue the matter, base-kit BT was long overdue and really helped balance the matter of tunelling. It's still bad, but at least the endurance/haste from the hook gives the survivor enough time to make it to a window/pallet (most of the time). Pre-patch, killers could down a survivor straight off a hook and put them back on it (granted they didn't have DS) - this made for really cheap, unfair 'wins' on the killer part.
I do agree that gens are going fast though, but I don't know how they can change this without major gameplay changes. They can't really increase the length of them because people already complain that gens are boring and non-immersive. And whilst base-kit Corrupt seems great on paper, didn't a Dev say that when they tested it it didn't really change much?
In all honesty, 'base-kits' are just bandaid fixes for glaring problems with game design. For example, base-kit BT wouldn't have been needed if tunelling/camping wasn't so easily and incentivized within the game. Likewise, base-kit corrupt wouldn't be needed if some maps weren't so large and convoluted with terrible gen spawns.
I'd prefer them to focus on maps rather than making constant base-kit buffs, tbh. Maps are still a massive issue in the game and no matter what updates/perks are released, it doesn't change that.
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We will see what the kill rates will be after the next patch. As far as I can see, the stats given were for 6.10, in which case, the killer WAS very strong - completely agreed due to buffed ability to tunnel easier.
Regardless, please read their original post:
"Before we dive in, we want to remind you that these numbers are still changing each day. The numbers we share in this post will likely be obsolete within a few months. This also means that any recent changes may not be reflected in these stats."
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Those are the stats we have to work with, so we may as well work with them. If not, then you have as much evidence for it being a 'neutral' patch as I do a killer buff patch, and this discussion is pointless.
Regardless, it absolutely wasn't a neutral patch. Gen times were a wash, where killers got a major buff was in lethality, even factoring in baseline BT.
Remember - the goal is to increase killer power baseline, whilst reducing the effectiveness of cheesy strats or strats that require a SWF to realistically counter. The baseline UB thing is targeted at this.
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Half of those are probably rage quits lol
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So you use stats which are probably outdated already as an argument to prove that killer is strong?
My evidence is that it was a 61 % kill rate, then survivors got major buffs, and it is extremely unlikely that the number 61 % is still there now. Not even talking about the fact that survivors adapt and improve their gameplay naturally as time goes on.
You are right that the 61 % kill rate was an indication of the killer being buffed at 6.10, you are very likely wrong that killer is still as strong as it was at 6.10. I don't need stats to back it up, you can read patch notes and figure it out.
This discussion is about the current state of the game, not 6.10.
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You shouldn't leave a survivor slugged for 45 seconds. End of.
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Honestly quite a lot. W key got weakened substantially so my main is now much more effective.
And no, Infectious is one of, if not the, best counters to Hyperfocus in the entitle game. Generators? Not so much. But Hyperfocus specifically? Absolutely. Them screaming interrupts the gen, forcing them to get off, and thus removing all Hyperfocus tokens.
Corrupt's nerf was... Interesting. Lethal Pursuer overtook it on most killers since it was simultaneously buffed but it remains an incredibly strong perk on setup killers (a la Trapper and Hag).
Still think that all we really need right now is a touch to Medkits + COH + base gen regression to get buffed.
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A lot of times.
While the mini built in pop and built in brutal didn’t have too much of an affect in most of my games, the 10% faster recovery from attacks and current STBFL on top of that has allowed the killer to win many camping situations simply because their recovery is ridiculously fast. Not to mention survivors getting a reduced speed boost and reduced speed boost duration after getting hit.
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What an incredibly short-sighted take...You do realise you're forced into such situations most of the time? Most of my slug games are against SWF with flashlights or someone following me when I down another survivor near a pallet. Sometimes you literally can't pick up a survivor because 2-3 are nearby with flashlights or looking to pallet stun or hook sabotaging or body blocking etc.
This change benefits SWF the most (as per usual) rather than solos. Some situations become literally uncounterable. Additionally, it takes away a healthy strategy from a killer which was high risk and high reward (slugging). Also, most killers can't even down more than 2 people in 45 seconds.
End of.
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Bloodlust, windows blocker and egc sacrifice.
Ofc we gonna give everything for granted
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Bloodlust can be easily reset by a survivor.
The window blocker is irrelevant, you have so many other loops to run into.
EGC sacrifice? This is the first time I've heard this one, please elaborate.
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Everything is irrelevant when it's about your own narrative
If bloodlust can be easily reset by survivors new unbreakable can be denied by picking up
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Those are not included.
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45 seconds UB is fine in some scenarios (ignoring giving a survivor another base kit perk argument). The killer should get punished for not hooking and leaving survivor on the ground for too long of a time.
The problem comes from the fact that the killer is forced sometimes to leave a survivor on the ground and is forced into a lose-lose situation. That's when it is not right. Inherently, this is a bad design and should be addressed with another solution rather than 45 second UB base kit.
Just like they should've prevented body blocking with BT/Off The Record.
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The problem with the 'reject all stats' style is that you now have zero proof for your own assertion.
The BT buff only really hurt hard tunnelers, and not that much. If you're going to tunnel, it's still a viable strategy, just a bit easier to work around. Camping is still very strong.
Do you have any stats about the current state of the game?
No, no it can't be.
I swear, your strategy seems to be 'I don't care about anything unless it suits my narrative' here.
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There are 2 situations where the 45s unbreakable will become important
1)Killer royally f'up and he's trying desperately to win in a very debatable way
2)Survivors royally f'up and the killer will have an easier match sitting back and enjoying the mori animation
Other than that slugging will still slow down the game a lot and be a powerful tool
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"Camping is still very strong" - they literally added a strong anti-camp perk which is seen in most of my games. It punishes camping, albeit I can't say by how much.
"The BT buff only really hurt hard tunnelers, and not that much." - how do you assess that? It's literally now a difference between making to a pallet and window and not (you couldn't even make a shack window with an old base kit BT). This is a massive difference and can literally extend chases by 30+ sec and win you games.
"Do you have any stats about the current state of the game?" No, but it doesn't take much intelligence to figure out that the 61 % number is very likely to be lower after significant survivor buffs. I can't tell you what that number is now, but we can safely assume it's lower just by looking at historical patch notes. If you have arguments to prove otherwise, then say so, but I won't wait another 6 months for killer stats to discuss balance changes :) And will also not use likely-to-be-outdated statistics to discuss current state of the game.
"I swear, your strategy seems to be 'I don't care about anything unless it suits my narrative' here." thanks for remark, but you seem to be getting emotional here.
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They probably would’ve died anyway, crybabies are bad most of the time.
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Every time I see someone comment “crybabies” on this forum I’m convinced they’re like 12 years old. And if they’re not, then yikes. Lol
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- It's a perk on a single survivor available soley for real money. That barely counts.
- Because I watch a lot of streams and play a lot of killer. You aren't going to escape a Nurse for very long, BT or no BT.
- Does it? I'd say maybe a percentage was shaved off. This is known as a 'void' fallacy (there's a proper term, but it's very Latin), you're arguing that because we can't know x for sure, then x must be the way you claim it is.
- It's an honest observation.
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It's more that basekit UB is a terrible way to bring in the mori change because you could easily change what makes slugging easier (alc ring, starstruck, etc).
Killers honestly need corrupt base ASAP then I wouldn't mind other balance changes being made.
Devs are gonna be real shocked when corrupts pickrate barely decreased from the patch because they didn't do anything to the "3 gens done with 1 hook" scenario which happens consistently without it.
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You're never forced to slug someone. Skill issue. Its not ok to try and be as toxic as possible and make the game boring for four people just because you're being outplayed. Slugging is boring so it's good they're doing something about it, stop trying to ruin the game for people, nobody wants to be lying on the floor for ages doing nothing it's not healthy for the game.
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It's a perk on a single survivor available soley for real money. That barely counts.
Is this your argument? Because a perk costs real money, it's not relevant? Might as well make the same argument for all other perks that cost money. Not sure what to say to this.
Because I watch a lot of streams and play a lot of killer. You aren't going to escape a Nurse for very long, BT or no BT.
You're using 1 killer as your argument (even though that killer doesn't even have top pickrate). "But what about Nurse" is not an argument when discussing global kill rates.
Does it? I'd say maybe a percentage was shaved off. This is known as a 'void' fallacy (there's a proper term, but it's very Latin), you're arguing that because we can't know x for sure, then x must be the way you claim it is.
Yeah, we can't know for sure, but with a high confidence level, we can safely assume it's lower. Especially when tunneling/camping is likely to be the biggest difference factor in that 61 % figure. No, 10 seconds on gens is not the biggest factor in kill rates, tunneling someone out early is why kill rates are/were high. When that cause was directly addressed, it doesn't take much to add 1+1 and figure out that the states are very likely (read: "very likely") to be different now.
I appreciate you being super theoretical and looking into data, but perhaps try to deal with things in a more pragmatic way.
"It's an honest observation."
Likewise to you.
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- Yes? It's entirely relevant, as the counter to camping is basically an RMT.
- Nurse is relevant to this discussion because she's what most survivors on the forums seem to complain about when they talk about tunneling. But Trickster and Blight would also be relevant as strong tunnelers that aren't especially concerned about this change.
- Lower? Sure. But if 'lower' means 'around 1% lower' than it's not all that meaningful. And I completely disagree, I don't tunnel as a rule and I'm definitely killing more. 'Very likely' is a wonderful weasel term though, as it means basically nothing besides 'I think that...'.
- No, mine was an honest observation. Yours was an ad-hom. There's a difference.
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You're never forced to slug someone.
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Yes? It's entirely relevant, as the counter to camping is basically an RMT.
From 6.10 statistics themselves:
7 of the 10 most popular killer perks are behind either RMT or progression with IRI shards.
3 of the 10 most popular survivor perks are behind either RMT or progression. "3" only being more of a cause of a lot of meta survivor perks being free. Unless you have an argument that survivors spend less money than killers on perks ;)
It's fair to assume that not everyone buys characters with Iri Shards even if they are purchasable with so. Regardless, it's clear as day that if a perk is meta/strong, people don't mind purchasing it using RMT (especially above lower levels). There is a reason why DBD base game costs dirt cheap, and they still make massive revenues. They don't get revenue from IRI shards.
Nurse is relevant to this discussion because she's what most survivors on the forums seem to complain about when they talk about tunneling. But Trickster and Blight would also be relevant as strong tunnelers that aren't especially concerned about this change.
The nurse is mostly complained not due to tunnelling/camping. Most killers who tunnel/camp are lower-tier killers. That would be a logical assumption given that they are weak and need to use such strategies to win the games.
Regardless, we are discussing kill rates globally, not just Nurse's. If you really like your 61 % kill rate statistic and base everything off that, then Nurse probably also needs a buff because she had a 40 % kill rate.
Lower? Sure. But if 'lower' means 'around 1% lower' than it's not all that meaningful. And I completely disagree, I don't tunnel as a rule and I'm definitely killing more. 'Very likely' is a wonderful weasel term though, as it means basically nothing besides 'I think that...'.
Massive projection by putting words into my mouth.
No, mine was an honest observation. Yours was an ad-hom. There's a difference.
Right, because saying that I have "a narrative" instead of addressing my individual arguments is definitely not a sign of someone being emotionally involved in a discussion. You basically neglect all my points because "I have a narrative" which is dumbing down the opposing party's arguments. I suggest you read about "Narrative Bias" or "Narrative Fallacy" to not fall into such cognitive bias traps ;)
Hope you have a nice day.
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You run gen defence because you are bad at chasing, thats all. Grow up :)
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You do know that most regression perks require you to end chases (and fastly so) to get value out of them?
In fact, if you're running full regression build, you're likely good at chases considering you don't need any anti-chase/information to perks to find and catch survivors. If I was bad at chases, I would literally get 3-4 useless perks as they would never proc/barely proc.
What an interesting argument lmao.
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Not true. Killers are weak as ever, nothing in high MMR changed. Killers have more kills in low MMR, but you can't balance a game around newbies who doesn't know the game. SWF Squad teams became stronger. And 61% ist saying, that 2 out of 4 survivers are escaping. Not a great thing as long a 2k is a draw. So killers get a draw and because of that they are strong? What a nonsense.
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Yeah, totally a neutral patch. Must be why kill rates went from 53% to 61% 🙄
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Read my previous replies. The 61 % number is likely to be lower by now (even devs literally wrote that on their post to understand that this data will be outdated soon and does not include recent changes).
For how many months are people going to use this number to support their claims? My guess is 6 months.
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Or it’s someone like me who doesn’t speak English mainly and just uses words others have used to express myself.
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It's harder for killers because basekit means nurse and blight get whatever everyone else gets, so if people say asked for basekit lethal, nurse and blight would have an amazing perk basekit that is already great on them, whereas if doc got a basekit lethal, it'd make him more mediocre
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You can't split up on gens and use prove thyself, lol
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Sure? Then add base kit perks and nerf top-tier killers. What's stopping them from doing that?
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I guess BHVR should come in and tell us how kill/survive rates are calculated because aside from rage quits messing with the number. Killers are constantly letting full teams of survivors escape when they should have killed the whole team.
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Killers don't want to admit it and like to dance around this argument but when the stats show in their favor they are all over the place complaining. Slugging may be a legit tactic in some peoples minds but it is one of the most boring things to have happen to you, now with the uptick of killers slugging at 4-5 gens "to put pressure" on survivors it is insane and it's finally being addressed, like it or not.
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Well, Killers did get T1 Brutal Strength and 1/4th of a better version of Save The Best For Last.
But Survivors got a massively better T3 Borrowed Time and are slated to get an infinitely better Unbreakable.
So, there's SOME degree of both sides getting perks basekit. It's just that the survivor ones are way, WAY better.
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And how do you get slugged so easily at 4-5 gens? If it's against every other killer than Nurse, then that's just you being horrible at the game. And even against Nurse, it takes some really bad plays to be slugged more than 2 people at 4-5 gens.
Slugging is boring, but most survivors who get slugged do usually deserve it by either disrespecting killer or making mistakes:
- Doing gen in their face and ignoring the killer's presence
- Doing stupid stuff (bad flashlight attempts, trying to unhook straight after other person gets hooked, general messing around)
- Grouping up together (survivors' fault)
- Rushing gens (fair play for killer to slug)
Avoiding slug is quite easy, you can literally play safe and hide. But instead, most survivors do stupid mistakes and don't respect the killer enough which gets them to 4-man slug on the ground. I can bet that 90 % of such situations can be avoided by playing smartly and safer.
And "Nurse" is not an argument to screw other 28 killers in the game.
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Look, i was once just like you but then i realised. Is 45 seconds really meaningless? I mean, survivor bleedout timer is 4 minutes which means even tho he will get up, he lost nearly 1/4th of his bleedout timer. This basically means you can have 4 hook stages but without hooking them.
But i still think NOBODY should get any basekit perks. The only exception i think of is kindred, becouse it wont affect SWF but will impact solo queue. Kindred basekit is just healthy for the game, but UB and BT both aren't really healthy. I think from all the perks, theese 2 SHOULDN'T EVEN be considered making basekit
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Its actually 1/5th, between there and 1/6th. If they bring unbreakable? its nearly 1/11th. I get why you rounded it the way you did, but it's not quite accurate. We can very easily see the return of whack-a-mole trolling that was oh so fun during the boil over RPD test.
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My biggest gripe with base kit UB is that:
1) It limits killer strategic play. Now killer most of the time is forced to hook and is forced to play a certain way (almost AI-like). They just destroyed some of the killer strategic gameplay elements, while at the same time giving more strategic options for survivors. I like to have options when I play killer, and one of those options is severely hindered. Adjusting the killer's strategy as the game goes by is one of the most fun things for me and this is telling me "no you can't do that".
2) This really does not do much for solo and in turn just buffs SWF to an even stronger level.
3) Another change that should give survivors a helping hand in "unfun scenarios" but will be abused by SWF/competent players. They keep adding defensive things to the game for survivors but in reality, these changes are more used offensively rather than used defensively. You can abuse this change very easily with some strategic gameplay from the survivor side.
In the end, they had tens of ways to solve this issue, but chose to do the easiest, most short-sighted way possible.
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Way more balancing than imaginable?
And because it's BHVR, we probably wouldn't see those changes for an easy 2 years, lol
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