You're all overreacting to the Unbreakable change
Most games, you aren't going to get value out of it because the killer just picks you up immediately after they down you.
But even if the killer doesn't pick you up and you manage to recover, you still got put in timeout for 45 seconds. That's 50% worth of generator progress you missed out on. You could bring Unbreakable to shorten that time, but that's up to you if you want to sacrifice a perk slot for something as niche and easily counterable as Unbreakable. So slugging will still be a viable strategy for buying time.
Additionally, if survivors always choose to recover instead of crawl away, killers who leave a downed survivor for a moment will have a much easier time finding them before they reach the 45 seconds threshold. The survivor could bring Tenacity to recover while moving, but again, that's another niche perk and just as easily counterable as Unbreakable.
This update will indirectly buff a few things though; most notably Saboteur will become stronger. But there are basement hooks and killer perks for dealing with that. Don't cry about sabotage becoming meta again just because you don't want to use the perks designed to counter it.
Flashlights will also be stronger since they could possibly contest a downed survivor long enough for them to self-revive in some situations, but again, there are perks that can counter flashlights as well as just facing a wall / chasing the survivor off.
What this change does most importantly however, is prevent killers from slugging to hold survivors hostage. The killer either has to hook them, or risk them getting away. And with the implementation of the Last Standing phase and finisher mori, matches will end faster and be less painful for everyone.
TLDR: base kit Unbreakable will not have as much of an impact on the game as you think it will, and the game's health will be in an overall better state with these changes.
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I play killer too and I don’t care about this change. Literally just don’t slug for more than 45 seconds. That’s not a big deal tbh.
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Everyone is overreacting to the basekit Unbreakable. Survivor mains are cackling in glee, while killer mains are crying about it being so unfair that survivors get a free meta perk.
Nobody seems to be giving the new Mori changes any attention, or any kind of critical analysis. It's the Mori changes that are atrocious, and the Unbreakable change is only necessary because of that.
The Last Standing Mori mechanics remove any and all meaningful interactions with survivors in the dying state, and any chance of endgame fun. Killers will no longer have the freedom to choose when and where to Mori, and survivors won't be able to make clutch plays to rescue slugged team mates or recover from a hopeless endgame scenario.
Killers will be encouraged to slug for the 4K, because now they have to to secure their Mori bonus or to bypass around 6 hook states to end the game early before survivors can power the exits. Which means more tunnelling, more sweaty playstyles, and more toxicity in general.
Post edited by EQWashu on5 -
Just don't slug in some cases. It will just waste a survivor perk slot. Even better for me to be honest
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I think basekit ub is totally fine I just hope they remember to look into the killers that have some what are depending on a good slug. The base 45 seconds might not be a problem but when they use ub it could be kinda short for oni or Myers to capitalise on there power because they deactivate when they pick up a survivor and let's not forget twins. They might be rare but I think they will be the ones that will feel the change the most and just because they are rare they shouldn't be ignored quite the opposite actually
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its not about the perks being used up instead of gen regression perks (which you also need, i used to have at least 2 gen regression perks and 2 for free choice but if this goes live i have to fill my slots with the same few perks over and over again. No fun at all.) the bigger issiue is what Bully Squads can do with it. No more consequences for trying to hardcore stop the killer from first hook, not anyone can down 4 people under 45 seconds and you either drop survivors or let them wiggle free, there is not enough time to to both hit disturbing body blockers 3 times so you can hook finally, also you have travel time, thats all a few seconds in which they can totally abuse you. I always hard slugg 4k when bully squads think they need to play like that, i dont even let them bleed out, except for the first one i carried because i dont want them to wiggle free by picking em up again.
If you think that is a fun future for killers than you are simply wrong. And its justified to freak out.
Your right about WHY they do it though, just because of that god awful mory system rework and the new endgame scenario they want to implement. So a bad change to justify another bad change. Looking forward to have SoloQ ruined aswell for me because tunneling/camping will increase and there will be no more 60/70 % of the time nurse games but 90. Also the endgame scenario is just a pure sweatfest tournament, i dont see anything positive coming out of this update if it makes it to live.
They shouldve just made yellow mori basekit and remove the mori offerings if moris are that big of an issiue.
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Okay. Here's the problem.
That 45s could easily be 22s with a perk.
Now, picture playing Twins, on Eyrie. You're at one end of the map, send out Victor and manage to down someone up on the second floor of the main structure, or far away. They could easily be up before you can get to them.
Or, maps like Eyrie and Midwich where hook spawns can be complete Kafka.
Or maps like (redacted) and (redacted) where you can basically make yourself impossible to pick up by abusing level geometry.
There are things that need to be fixed and changed before this.
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You are completely underestimating it. All it takes is one good sabotaging play on the right map, and the killer will be forced to give up an earned down for nothing. Hook respawns take 30 seconds default (45 seconds with the Grip Wrench add-on). New Unbreakable? Less than 25 seconds. Even without Grip Wrench, survivors with Unbreakable are up and about again on their own, leaving the rest of the team to do gens. Survivor purposely goes down in an area where a teammate has died with no other nearby hooks, picks themself up. And remember, this is unlimited and basekit Unbreakable. On top of the change some time ago that survivors no longer ever lose wiggle progress. This means that when hooking isn’t a viable option, a killer will be forced to either let a survivor escape their grasp with a stun, or watch them get up and get away all by themself!
And this can happen over and over again throughout the trial, on every survivor - even without Unbreakable!
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Survivors not needing to get off gens to go pick up their teammate on the ground is a huge nerf to using slugging as a means to generate pressure. And some killers have powers that make a lot of sense to slug with.
Not to mention if you ever down a survivor under a pallet and there's another survivor around you almost have to surrender to the fact that the person you just downed is getting back up.
It's a huge change with a lot of ramifications that people are justifiably worried about.
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The counter is easy you baby killers, pick them up immediately! Boom, no unbreakable. If you get flashlight stunned or pallet stunned by a SWF with 2 people by the downed survivor, you get outplayed. Get better. SWF with one person on gens is massively killer sided!!
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Okey Mr. 50 million hours remium survivor what about oni Meyers and twins they kinda need slugging
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Pick them up!! Slugging is a boring, no skill strategy that isn't fun for the survivors!!
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I quess you never played or own or think about Twins hmmm.
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Then oni and Meyers need work on there power because picking up let's you lose the power they are designed to slug and snowball and twins are totally relient on slugging with the new ub you could get real problems to reach the survivor you downed with your power using your skill
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It’s not as big a nerf as you might think, setting aside Unbreakable for the moment, because right now it takes a dying survivor 30 seconds to get their recovery bar to be one tap from being revived by another survivor who took 10-15 seconds away from gens to help. While the new system it takes the dying survivor 45 seconds without Unbreakable to revive themselves with no help. So in terms of how much time the survivors lose on gens during a slug it ends up being about a wash. And if the killer is only slugging for 30-40 seconds before picking the survivor up it’s actually possibly a slight killer buff because the new system eliminates the possibility of the survivor getting up in time if they don’t have Unbreakable.
Obviously it’s complicated, there’s a lot of different scenarios possible with pallets and swfs and Unbreakable playing into it. But for most matches and most killers the slugging change is not going to be nearly as big a deal as it sounds.
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That was sarcasm. Either noticable by the over-exaggeration or the knowledge what veinslay normally posts.
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If you see Saboteur becoming the meta, you bring anti-sabotage perks. Just like how killers always bring gen slowdown perks since gen-rushing is the meta. And even if survivors buy themselves more time by sabotaging hooks, gens aren't getting done as fast with them running around.
It would make sense to pause killer power durations like Evil Within and Corrupt Purge while carrying survivors. This way the killer won't be wasting their power gauge having to hook a survivor to prevent unbreakable.
40+ seconds to scare off a survivor trying to contest their ally under a pallet seems like plenty of time to me.
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I'm waiting it out to see how it plays, but with past experience with hard-core sabo/boilover squads, my prediction is it won't be a big deal (Twins excluded) until it is. Until you hit that squad that will make it impossible to hook in the first place, and you no longer have counterplay by slugging until it's safe to hook.
The other prediction is at least for me, I'll probably slug more. I generally avoided it because I didn't want a survivor to be stuck on the ground for a minute or two out of consideration. Now that I know they can get themselves up, it's not as big of a deal and I can go ahead and slug the injured survivor that was working on the gen and the chase down his healthy buddy for the actual hook.
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Twins were mega unfun sluggers from the start. Their only hit&slug playstyle got a big hit after the introduction of COH. Now Twins won't fit in dbd at all, with new built-in Unbreakable. Its a good reason for them to get a rework, be more fun to play as and against.
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The basekit thing is fine, unbreakable change is not
There are certain situations where the killer has to slug, and in those situations 45 second time out for a survivor is vallue for the killer. 22.5 seconds is not
22.5 seconds saved on any action is way to strong for a single perk that's just always active no matter what. Not a single other perk in the game does that without having some requirements or combo pieces
Either let it stay at 35% or make it deactivate after one use.
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Yes but then here's a scenario... You go down under a pallet and you have a friend ready nearby to get the pallet save. Its a lose lost situation because if they pick you up you get out, they chase your friend and you get up because your friend wont go far away but is close enough to another tile. And going down under a pallet isnt hard and would be borderline incentivized instead of possibly getting hit through it if you know someone is nearby.
Basically it turned from a "it can only happen 4 times a game" scenario to a "it can happen at every pallet" scenario.
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Slugging is a way of punishing survivors for making dumb decisions. If 2 survivors run into me or I down someone next to a gen while the others are still on there I could easily go for another free hit or down by letting one survivor on the ground for a while. You will see Unbreakable as the most used survivor perk when this update goes live and that will completely prevent killers from snowballing in such a way. Also there are many situations where you can't pick up the survivor immediately. What if they go down under a pallet? What if there is someone with a flashlight? What if they bring saboteur or sabo toolboxes? What if the killer gets unlucky and there is a literal hook death zone? These situations all REQUIRE slugging or certain perks. The thing about perks is that the killer can only bring 4. Not 16 (as the survivors), not 10, only 4. I really don't think it'll be healthy to force killers to run Lightborn, Agitation and Hex: Bloodfavor only for them to be able to hook people safely leaving them with 1 more perk slot. People don't get bothered by the fact that they can't slug for the 4k anymore but by all these situations above.
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I see a lot of people claim that wanting reassurance changed was killers crying wolf and it wouldn't have been as bad as they were claiming. It often gets framed as overreaction, so lets look at how the two versions of reassurance would work in conjunction with the basekit UB.
Current: Survivor can lead a chase straight to a hooked survivor, divebomb the hook in the killer's face, reassurance, get downed. They now have the hook paused for 30 seconds, and can get up anywhere from 22.5-45 seconds (could be even faster, but being more realistic about stuff like exponential.) If the killer picks up the survivor, they open the other survivor up to being saved while the killer is transporting (even to a small but reasonable degree in the basement) resetting the situation entirely. If the killer doesn't pick them up, they will be able to get up again in 22.5-45 seconds, and force the killer to play whack-a-mole if they don't want to let them get the unhook and basekit BT bodyblock and everything that comes with it. Don't forget i'm purposely ignoring perks like Dead Hard and Soul Guard here, as well as MoM or anything else that can be used here like purple medkit addons. Due to the limitations on Reassurance, this situation is at least not cyclical.
With PTB Reassurance? They could have kept getting up, pausing the timer, then going back down and repeating. This means that two survivors are holding the killer in a situation where the other 2 are free to work on gens with zero potential to be pressured, and the bleedout timer eventually preventing further UBs would be the only thing that could stop it, unless the killer abandons the hook pressure entirely. And remember, this scenario didn't even require camping, it can start with a survivor routing the chase here in a play thats so bad it would normally be throwing the game in almost all cases. Instead it guarantees breaking up existing killer pressure, while also allowing an avenue to punish the killer for whatever they deem the correct way to handle it. All options are covered, it's lose/lose.
A lot of times these scenarios are cautionary, they're just outlining how people can and will exploit these tools when given the chance. That factor gets so far out of control at times that BHVR is very clearly unable to consider these usages in their design process, which is why people try to warn them.
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Basekit doesn't bug me. It's about removing something that slows games down in a seriously unfun way. The 22 second unbreakable kinda pushes it IMO though. Maybe unbreakable should let you get up in full health after 45 sec? IDK.
Bully squads are rare enough and the funny thing about the complaints against them is they almost always lead to a high score 3-4k for me because they don't do gens and eventually go down. I always look at them as great practice for how to handle good survivors. Using them as a reason "X" change is bad is kinda pointless. They're an aberration, not a norm.
I can see problems for the twins. For sure. Their power should get tweaked in some way.
Maybe Myers too but I really don't know. His power lasts 60 seconds and how often are there still 4 survivors when you hit T3? The way people are talking it's like they expect him to be entitled to 4 slugs in 60 seconds then guaranteed hooks on top of that. I think the alarmism over him is overrated. 4 downs in 60 seconds means the survivors are awful. If 4 survivors are standing when Mike hits T3 he's not very good either imho. I pretty frequently see him hit tier 3 twice a match. I mean, killers always say it so I don't feel bad, "get better." I see enough really good Shapes in my games to think he absolutely doesn't deserve the derision he gets. For any killer I really think you should only count on your power getting you 2 kills. The other half you better just be good at M1ing.
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The only thing I wish they would change is the Bloodpoint value for the Moris, just make them more worth getting since the Ebony Mori might be harder to pull of with the basekit Unbreakable changes.
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Twins in particular are getting heavily screwed over by this set of changes and need a serious fix.
Additionally, removing the requirement for team-mates to help up a fellow survivor removes a lot of pressure - now there's no need to leave a gen to pick up your team-mate and with Unbreakable they can be up in 22s which is a joke.
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Only if unbreakable weren't extremely strong perk...
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Just because it's something your not likely to experience doesn't mean it's okay.
But it does many things.
- punish killers for no reason.
- rewards survivors for not going for the save.
- let's survivors expedite the recovery process.
- killers lose pressure/are forced to play less dynamic game.
There are probably more things, but you get the idea. Terrible change
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Way overreacting indeed, typical.
And everyone is assuming all survivors will run UB for a 22 seconds pickup.
UB mostly benefit SWF and it's WAY SITUATIONAL that only comes into play maybe 1-2 games out of 10 games; Other than that it's a wasted slot.
45 seconds should be less and i don't care about UB, nerf it to the ground but make basekit more reasonable.
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