Everything WRONG about the mori PTB before it's even out. And yes, theres ALOT of issues.
Yes I know it's not even out yet, and that is what bugs me the most how BHVR just overlook and over complicate everything.
So first of all the whole point of this mori change is to make them more common to see (which is good I agree we should see them more, cant say I ever see them... although some definitely need updating, currently mobile DBD has better moris for wraith, trapper etc.) Encase you arent sure what the change is, whenever the final standing player is put into the dying state a mori will automatically trigger and end the game giving the killer the win with a nice mori animation.
However here is every issue with this:
- The mori only triggers when the last person is knocked down, this means any game that doesnt result in a 4k you wont see this happen. (This is because survivors dont tend to leave people until they're dead on hook, it's rare for everyone to leave while someone is still alive) since a 4k is supposed to be more rare than a 3,2 or 1k this means you wont really encounter this system.
- This means more killers will slug for the 4k, this is just a boring thing that happens in the game. Whether you're the slugged player or the last one standing it's just boring. Some killers will also feel the need to if they want to see the moris
- There are numerous challenges that require you to kill someone by your own hand, this now basically means get a 4k or hope for the very small chance everyone leaves before you down the remaining player and hope they dont get hatch. This is too rare to happen and challenges shouldn't keep forcing a 4k since that's not the balance point. You also cant use perks/offerings to do this as you changed them
- The actual mori offerings are now a gamble and promote bad and boring gameplay. As mentioned before you need to slug for the 4k or hope on the very small chance of everyone abandoning people (which let's be honest most survivors just wait at the gate) this mean killers will massively feel forced to slug for the 4k as the offering insists you do it or you will get 0BP from the offerings (which can cost 3k+).
- From point 4, the mori offerings are a gamble of you will get a 4k. Why wouldn't people just use set BP offerings and guarantee rewards no matter how the game goes. Remember a pudding is 100% BP, that's a 40k bonus meanwhile the best mori offering gives 20k and is a risky gamble. This makes mori offerings pointless. (Personally I'd rather a refund)
- Rancor, killed the perk. Having someone exposed at the end isnt worth it. Your obsession could be dead and all this does is down them, stuff like BT etc. Will protect them. It's too niche to have the obsession alive, fully healthy and next to you. Might as well just use NOED and guarantee an exposed on whoever is near and can give inst downs on multiple people (REMEMBER WE DONT WANT META PERKS, MAKING PERKS WEAK WILL JUST STOP THEM BEING USED AND FORCE LESS RANGE OF PERKS USED)
- Devour, the whole point of devour was the mori. The ability to instantly kill someone where they was even through DS. However the change now stops that, while you can still kill someone instantly on hook you have to worry about pallet saves, flashlights, sabo saves, DS etc. All of this is not including giving survivors extra time to cleanse your hex before you can get them on a hook. (REMEMBER WE DONT WANT META PERKS, MAKING PERKS WEAK WILL JUST STOP THEM BEING USED AND FORCE LESS RANGE OF PERKS USED)
- Giving survivors base unbreakable, while I dont have a problem with the 45seconds it raises issues. This 45seconds should be a set amount, no survivor should be able to pick themselves up faster alone. (Even if the recovery bar is full they must wait 45seconds) but still what about some core killer issues? Huge maps, survivors spawning separated on multiple gens straight away, spawning on hexs? (If anyone will use hexs, you're kinda killing them all)
- Unbreakable, why is unbreakable 100%? That makes it way better than a boon... you know a boon which you have to place and be within range. Make 0 sense and we can exactly buff boons to silly numbers or itd be impossible to even slug.
- With unbreakable being so fast this makes flip flop, powerstruggle even worse to verse. All it takes is one survivor to go down in a pallet with this and have a flashlight near or just someone near for the pallet save and it's a 100% escape as the killer is forced to get rid of that other survivors. This makes a lose lose situation and not a fair or fun thing to experience (even if this is more swf its dumb)
- Twins... just gonna say that, theres just so many opportunities to abuse everything getting added against this killer. By the time you have traveled over after downing with victor that player is like to have alot of recovery with unbreakable ready for powerstruggle, boil over etc. To get in unhookable spots.
All in all this causes alot of issues, some impacting gameplay other impacting usefulness of perks and offerings which will cause meta and less variation in things being used. THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS IS TO MAKE MORIS MORE COMMON, it doesnt even do that unless you 4k every game. It's an over complicated system causing more issues and not even achieving the main goal.
I could probably find more issues with it but i only read the patch once and going over obvious things the devs should know is about as boring as being slugged for the 4k will be every game.
Why wasnt ivory mori just made base kit but it cant be used through DS (the prompt does pop up) this makes it possible to see a mori every game if you get someone ready for death hook. This would be 100000% times easier to do and achieves what is wanted without forcing boring gamestyles like slugging for the 4k... also remember moris actually rob killers of certain hook perks anyway.
Comments
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One of the things that drives me up the wall about the mori change is that it requires SO MANY CHANGES to the game for almost no benefit.
Deliverance, Unbreakable, Decisive Strike, Power Struggle, Flip Flop all just had their potential reduced because of the fact that bad luck will negate any potential escape you couldve made with them. Players who used to hold Unbreakable close to their chest unless it was actually needed. A last minute power struggle escape that results in rescuing other players and keeping the game going is no longer possible.
Killer perks like Deerstalker, Rancor, Devour Hope have become worse because of the side effects of the change.
Mori challenges are now uncontrollable as OP had stated.
Mori offerings cost X amount of bloodpoints for a bloodpoint reward that isnt guaranteed to happen, and is less effective than just using a survivor pudding.
Archives exist that requiring hooking 4 people in the basement, crawling to the hatch, etc. Those will have to be changed.
Achievements on console and steam will have to all be looked at to make sure they can still be accomplished.
Player agency is being removed for the sake of a cutscene that will happen sometimes.
BHVR is putting man hours into evaluating the entire game to make sure this cutscene system functions, when im not sure if anyone wanted this in the first place.
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I'm not reading all of that. All I know is that there will definitely be changes from PTB to live.
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These are issues before even the PTB. I shouldn't be able to make a list like that before the PTB is even out...
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I agree with almost all of your points. If I don't mention a specific number, just assume I agree with it.
For 1 and 2, I actually think this might be the main thing this change does well. Maybe there's differing opinions on this, but I think "slugging for the 4k" really is only a problem when you don't know where the last survivor is so you try to use the third survivor to either bait the fourth out of hiding or you use it as a way to give yourself more time to find the last one. For the slugged survivor, this is a PITA to wait 4 minutes. If a killer tries to do that with this change, they get punished pretty harshly at 45 seconds and are more encouraged to hook the survivor immediately if they don't know where the fourth survivor is. If they know where the last survivor is (you were grouped up and the third went down right next to the fourth), I think it's pretty reasonable to try and down the fourth and get the 4k. At the same time, I've had times when I did this and the fourth survivor ran me for much longer than I thought they would so the slugged survivor stayed on the ground for a long time. I would have gotten punished for doing that.
I think this is the exact scenario this change does well.
For 6, very much agree it kills Rancor as a perk. Just generally no reason to run it. I think it was a badly designed perk to begin with, but it was a fun one. There's really no reason you should just get an instant kill when the generators pop but removing that part of the perk makes the perk practically useless.
For 7, you rarely got to see the moris from Devour to begin with. Most people would let their teammates die on hook before giving a 5th stack. If you got one kill from Devour before they broke the totem, you basically guaranteed yourself a win. I'll miss the extra personality with it but I think Devour will stay at a relatively similar power level. It'll also get some synergy with hook perks that it didn't have before.
Everything you said about the new Unbreakable is just crazy. Unbreakable being at 100% recovery is just insane. It would still probably be strong at the same 35% it was before. I think Unbreakable at 100% could be fine though if the enhanced recovery speed had a deactivation condition. Something like, "Unbreakable deactivates if you pick yourself up." If your teammate picks you up, then you keep the enhanced recovery speed. If you pick yourself up, you lose the enhanced recovery speed or the enhanced recovery speed decreases like Built to Last.
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Honestly I came into this expecting a very subjective biased post, but many of these points are quite good.
It was mentioned in another thread however that challenges are being looked at.
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First of all: I appreciate how much work (thinking and writing) you put into that comment.
I have the information from streamers that the rework of mori is because the devs want to nerf the mori? How dou you get the idea that they want the mori be more often seen?
There are further problems:
- I as survivor am fixing a generator. Killer downs a teammate. Nowadays I have to stop fixing and walk over to pick my mate up. Then I can continue fixing because I know that the survivor can pick himself or herself up. It impacts killer and survivor tactics.
- And this basekit is not unbreakable, but better than unbreakable. Unbreakable is one time per trial, and this basekit is said to be infinite.
- I had some matches, most memorable, when the killer hooked one mate and downed 2 other mates. And I was standing and trying to safe the trial, and succeeded sometimes. Time to be a hero? Heroes are no longer needed, just hide.
- It breaks the killers set of tactics.
- And worst of all: killers are the "Kellerkind" of BHVR, meaning the unloved and disadvantaged part of community. They are nerfed and furthermore nerfed, from 2016 until 2022. How often did the mori system get nerfed? I remember at least 2 times, this would be the third time. Same with NOED. And so on.
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Well I'm glad you appreciate the post lol. When it comes to posts like this or my quality of life posts I try focus on overall experience.
I dont tend to be biased in terms of side I just tend to focus on the higher level which obviously can come across in certain ways sadly.
I always want what's best for both sides, I want to game to succeed afterall
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That's okay, but honestly this didnt take much effort and only a few mins to type up. I just have a brain that wont stop lol, was speaking about the game map to someone else and I was just listing all the pallet spawns from memory.
And honestly I wouldn't worry too much about the base 45, as long as it's always 45seconds no matter what then it wouldn't be massively impactful. It's only if others can pick themselves up in 23odd seconds would it cause issues.
So for example your first point, the killer still benefits from that 45second slug as before the survivor would have to wait 20odd and then get picked up by a teammate (at max 15seconds to cross the biggest of maps) so it's still a positive. It's only when you mix in the other things it becomes a huge concern
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You forgot to mention how they actually managed to nerf No Mither.
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Eh I dont get the point of that perk existing, it physically shows who has it so you never benefit from it 😂
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That's what makes it so funny.
They managed to nerf the worst perk in the game.
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"Maybe there's differing opinions on this, but I think "slugging for the 4k" really is only a problem when you don't know where the last survivor is so you try to use the third survivor to either bait the fourth out of hiding or you use it as a way to give yourself more time to find the last one. For the slugged survivor, this is a PITA to wait 4 minutes. If a killer tries to do that with this change, they get punished pretty harshly at 45 seconds and are more encouraged to hook the survivor immediately if they don't know where the fourth survivor is."
Thing is, you can just comb the map looking for the fourth survivor in roughly 45s phases, returning to the slug to whack them back down. You will eventually find and down that last survivor, and if the first slug still manages to get back up before you get that final down, you just repeat the process with the survivors in opposite roles.
You won't be able to repair any gens during this whack-a-mole process, so you're essentially held hostage, in a process that will likely take longer than the 4 minute bleedout timer.
This whack-a-mole game will be the only way to guarantee a finisher Mori, and the best way to guarantee a 4K after tunneling out the first two survivors, as you'll be bypassing 6 hook stages.
This will be the new meta strategy.
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The Mori rework is something I can't remember ever reading anyone asking for, nor seeing it as a problematic issue. It's literally the strangest change idea BHVR made since an update where they said Hillbilly is exactly where they wanted him, then proceeded to nerf him in the same statement. It's a bad design for something nearly everyone never even asked for!
The change to making a Mori only active on a final hook made sense, for sure. But there's so much wrong with it.
The best idea I've seen for a change (if any was even needed) was by someone called @MagiDavid who said changing the Mori to a token system, where every killer has one token = one Mori in every match to use whenever, and the Mori offerings add 1/2/3 Mori tokens for other Mori's.
But yeah, the more I think about it, the more senseless the idea seems.
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Yeah this is my concern too. Killers will just camp the slug, especially if the slug isn't on death hook yet. Anything to delay hatch spawning and guarantee the 4k, especially since all you need to do with these changes is down them.
The biggest problem imo with the finisher mori is that it's by far the most efficient way to close out the game. You could, theoretically, and the game with a 4k win and 0 hooks. Now, that's an exception, sure, but...
Tunneling now becomes even more the optimal way to play the game. Killing off the first survivor is critical. Tunnel the first survivor, proxy camp the second, and you can likely just win by downing the person going for the unhook. Every game will be like this, and I already hate it.
(Sure people do this now, but it means that catching the last survivor who might also be going for the unhook ends the game immediately, rather than any counter play.)
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- They shouldn't remove it from the perks, but it isn't too uncommon to have partial kill groupings with a slug and people being forced out.
- I can see this being a concern for the Mori offerings themselves, since you only get the BP value with a Mori ending. I don't think this will make normal matches have it be more common, as slug for the 4k already happens too often (at least in my games as Surv). In those matches the Killer either bleeds out the 3rd Survivor or hooks at 3m59s. At least for Survivors you have the knowledge the Killer will plan on doing that from the offering ahead of time now.
- I agree, and as far as some of the more recent "win" challenges they have been better. One example is the Adept tomes only require the 3 perks to be equipped, and allow a 4th perk of your choosing. You also often don't need to play that specific Killer. As for the older ones allegedly someone from BHVR is going to go through those and adjust them, but it wouldn't hurt to have someone from the community compile relevant challenges.
- Hard agree, they not only provide very bad value (20k max for Iri compared to 40k max Pudding?), but they will incentivize the annoying slug for 4k. I did see another poster have a much better idea that rewarded X per kill when ending with a Mori instead. That wouldn't require the slug for 4k as much since you could force people out of the gates and Mori the remainder.
- Same as 4
- I wouldn't say it killed the perk, since you have a different Bitter Murmur proc on gen completions still, but it really should keep the personal Mori.
- Agreed, it also removes the choice from Killers to hook or Mori that they currently have. Sometimes I want to bait someone into rescuing instead of taking the kill.
- I don't agree. I would ask you review your past matches and count how many times you needed to slug in excess of 45s. Also the adjusted timer with perks is slower than the current UB/B:E speeds. The only difference here is unlimited 22.5s UB. That I don't know how it will play out, and think it would be best to physically test on PTB as opposed to think on paper.
- The math is changed to have roughly the same timer. The current ~30s/ UB ~22.22s would be compared to the new 45s/ UB 22.5s Also if you had the boon and UB the numbers are ~12.75s current and 15 post proposed change. This is technically a nerf to stacking from live.
- Since it still has the same ~22s pickup timer that works the same for both versions, this would be no different from live. Also losing a Survivor at the cost of a permanent pallet being gone is still valuable for macro.
- Honestly fudge Twins and their annoying gameplay, and Power Struggle is no different for Twins from Live. If you down with Victor you cannot switch back to Charlotte and pickup in time to avoid PS even if you are in melee range. As far as unhookable spots go there are only 2 I am aware of, RPD Library and Badham Preschool basement without basement hooks. They deleted the Library, so that only leaves Badham. A quick fix for that is to have a fixed hook where the basement stairs would be if basement doesn't spawn there. As far as corner hooks being destroyed that is a macro failure on the Killer's part. When I play Killer I need to pay attention to gens, hook locations, and what hooks will be removed when I death hook someone. If I death hook near a gate, that may prevent me from getting that kill at the end, so I avoid that.
Overall I think the best solution would be unlocking basekit Moris when you reach 8 hook actions and all Survivors are alive. Then add an extra bonus to the Sacrifice category for these Moris to be able to reach the new 10k cap. This also only gives you Moris when you don't kill people early, but isn't required to win. It just exists for the completionists to get the "100%" BP.
Edit: For clarity - granting basekit Moris -> unlocking basekit Moris.
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This is... sadly... probably correct.
I guess for me I just never really slug for the 4k without a clear goal in front of me, but obviously there are other killers who do that and would just switch to this strategy.
I guess then I just don't really understand the point of the basekit unbreakable if it doesn't really solve anything.
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Basekit Unbreakable is purely to make it harder for killers to slug all four survivors at once.
Sadly it won't have much impact on two survivors.
It wouldn't be necessary if they just implemented a less radical Mori system.
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This mori system is the dumbest idea they have come up with and thats saying a lot, no one asked for something like that and they also need to change their entire game in order for it to be implemented which is just so stupid.
This will take away so many fun and clutch plays + make the tunneling/camp problem even worse, since killers now will know they wont need to hook everyone multiple times to win, they will just try to down everyone when trying to help the hooked person. The devs should be ENCOURAGING multiple hooks with how bad tunneling/camping has gotten, just yesterday i got camped at 5 gens for no reason since no one made absolutely no plays or gen progress by the time i got hooked, later in another match, the first of the night for him, my boyfriend got tunneled the entire match since he was unlucky enough to be found and hooked first. He just left survivor and went to play killer.
This entire PTB should not even happen, everything needs to get scrapped, i will seriously consider if i want to keep playing if they decide to go ahead with these changes.
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It's not just games where you're going to 4K anyway that will trigger the finishing mori....
There are games that are totally winnable by the survivors that will also end prematurely (IE Deliverance plays, Unbreakable/Soul Guard plays, etc that allow for crazy comebacks/the ability to close out tight games).
The PTB is not going to go the way some people think it is, but it will all be revealed soon, so I'm just gonna enjoy the ride @_@
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Any number I didn't post, assume agreement/didn't have anything specific to add.
#1 Not necessarily - Survs (especially in soloQ) will leave teammates behind and Killers already force people out of the gates to reduce the number of survs that they have to deal with. How common that is? I honestly haven't clue besides witnessing it enough to know that it happens enough to remember.
#2 I suspect some Killers will try to slug for the 4K, at least in the beginning. If the UB basekit makes it too much of hassle to achieve and results in more surv escapes, then most will stop. But, I also think it's possible that some will want the 'quick' 4K that slugging promises, and matches will turn into a long, drawn out slug/res/slug/res until either gens get finished and most survs escape by playing around the Killer trying to slug everyone or bleed out timers mercifully end the match with a variation of 1-2 survs escaping.
#8 Tentative disagreement. I understand what you're saying and do think it has merit. However, this change potentially makes slugging way to appealing for Killers and some already have high slugging potential. Not allowing survs to pick themselves up would, I think, make matches a disaster, especially once 1 surv is already out. Now, whether or not a surv should be able to pick themselves up more than twice? Maybe not.
#9 I don't fundamentally have a problem with a nonboon perk being stronger than a boon perk because boon perks a.) can give their benefit to multiple people (and multiple people at the same time), including the character w/ the perk, b.) can give that effect to the same person multiple times with no cool down and c.) multiple boons can be placed on one totem. The later can create some pretty powerful effects. But 100% may be way too much. Until I see it play out in matches, I can't really say beyond, I suspect, this is to give a counter to Killers with high slugging potential.
In regards to your comments on perk changes - survivor or killer, I agree that potential impacts here are huge to the point of making this change seem nonsensical. Is it going to make some perks way to powerful? Will it make others completely trash? Are some perks now going to near the sad state of 'must have'? What will it mean for future perks? More Killer perks to increase time spent on the ground (yikes! being slugged is already pretty boring)? Or keep survs from getting up at all? More survivor perks to decrease time spent on the ground/prevent being put on the ground?
If this entire thing is being done so that mori animations are 'seen more', I just. Wow. What a silly reason. I could be in the minority here, but I don't find mori animations worth watching after 5th time that I've seen them. I hope the there is a different and more gameplay oriented reason.
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I have some bad feelings about this update and several objections, BUT I think its awesome that BHVR is willing to make such sweeping and radical changes to their 6ys old formula and think that's pretty cool and brave, so I'll try to stay positive.
My actual prediction for the PTB: everyone is running UB for that juicy 22,5s self pickup. Killers will notice this pretty soon and after a couple of escaped survivors will pick up and hook immediately.
Some survivors will bemoan that the new UB is a scam because they get never slugged, most others will adapt and use other perks and eventually we will have normal games with many hooks that occasionally, when no one expects it, end with a sudden death when 2 survivors got already sacrificed and the others get downed and the occasional clutch moment when one survivor gets up while the last one gets downed, taking the win out of the killers hands, while looking defeat in the eye.
The End.
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I think they made UB basekit so killers can’t slug three survivors then down & mori the fourth, leading the entity to claim the three slugs. Without basekit UB killers could end the game with zero hooks. And survivors rarely run UB so BHVR didn’t want to make another situation where survivors are forced to run a perk to play the game.
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LOL purrrr
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