Nurse Nerf When?
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swf Nerf when ? as long as swf is the way it is, Nurse has her right to exist the way she is right now
I am for Nurse and swf at nerfs or solo q to buff to the level of swf and to buff the killers towards Nurse, Blight
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I wouldn't argue SWF is fine at the moment so much as I would argue that there really isn't much BHVR can do about the strength of SWF since so much of that strength comes from simply having access to comms, and the ability to plan out what your entire team's bringing as opposed to what just you are bringing like in solo.
One idea I had one night to buff solo que to put it on-par with SWF, so they can even the scales even just a little bit, is to just.. Let survivors see their team's loadouts in the lobby. Now, I'm no code-brainer, but I imagine that wouldn't be ENTIRELY too difficult to implement, since at least one part of that loadout is already fully visible (items) and the rest is just some perk/offering icon UI.
As for Nurse,
I can't say her potential is "higher" than SWF, since I've witnessed firsthand some damn-brutal SWFing that made me literally unable to play the game as a fairly strong killer like Artist just by three people camping a pallet with top-tier flashlights, Any Means Necessary, etc., making it so I'm kinda just screwed no matter what I do, but what I can say,
EASILY the most needed nerf to Nurse is just to have blink attacks count as specials and not basics. It's... Honestly kinda baffling that they still haven't implemented that yet, seeing as even Blight's lethal rushes are counted as specials, and far, FAR weaker killers also have healthstate-dealing attacks that aren't M1s counted as specials despite, on paper and in practice, being pretty damn similar to an M1 (Pig's dash for example, AKA M1 with extra steps).
And also,
- BHVR said themselves not to take the stats at face value
- That's lowest kill rate in the game AT ALL MMR, meaning pablogonzales2004 who just installed the game yesterday and happened to pick nurse also contributes to that statistic, as do more experienced players who try nurse a couple times and go "Man, I'm just losing over and over and over, I'm just gonna not do this and stick to a killer I can land a single attack with".
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it was sarcasm
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Fair enough but in my defense, tone isn't the easiest to discern from straightforward text with basic punctuation and no indication of sarcasm beyond the idea being presented, which I have seen presented unironically.
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understandable, have a nice day
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You too, then! Pleasant interaction!
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You left out the fact that she is not even top 5 at the highest mmr. She is fine, people just like to complain
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Please see
- BHVR said themselves not to take the stats at face value
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You can still make general conclusions for the data. In the vast majority of the games that you play against Nurse, she is not overperforming.
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Okay? Trickle-down balancing, AKA a pretty widely applicable and, dare I say, "good" way to balance things, dictates that if things function off-kilter or too strongly at the highest possible level, then nerfing it will be fine for the lowest possible level that didn't even know you could do that.
And yes, I'm aware, even top-tier Nurse players struggle with gens and that Blight tends to have a lot more leniency anyways, I have seen Otz' video, you needn't clarify for me,
But I still fail to see how literally any of that means it's okay that Nurse can teleport to a healthy survivor and instantly down them with her 100% special attack "basic" attack should she use one of the seven trillion exposed perks in the game, and if she knows what she's doing, she probably will be.
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Hopefully never.
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'Trickle down balancing' is terrible for participation; all skill levels have to be considered. As an example, there's a certain other asymmetrical that tried it and has lost close to 95% of their player base.
If you want spectators as in competitive sports, sure, balance solely for the top. If you want participants and a thriving game community, consider all skill levels in balance.
And, besides, according to the kill rates for the top 5% MMR Nurse is fine. That's not the only factor BHVR takes into account but the kill rates aren't showing any issues.
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"But I still fail to see how literally any of that means it's okay that Nurse can teleport to a healthy survivor and instantly down them with her 100% special attack "basic" attack should she use one of the seven trillion exposed perks in the game, and if she knows what she's doing, she probably will be."
Please don't make me repeat myself. Nurse Enjoyers, who I do respect but respectfully tend to disagree with, cannot seem to point out why it's okay that a Nurse can run one perk to see you through walls, run another to squeeze as much exposed out of you as possible, and then run two add-ons that make getting there EZPZ, and have it actually work despite post-blink hits being inarguably a special attack, no matter what way you spin it.
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The talking point on this forum has always been that her kill rate is so low because of noobs picking her, which I agree with. But these stats suggest that even at high mmr, she is not the most effective. There is no good excuse; people are just wrong about her being a problem.
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IMO Nurse is a hard Killer to pick up and learn... With Blinks and other things related to it (I play on console so that could be the reason)
She is the slowest moving Killer her base speed is 3.85M/S
Her movement speed while charging is less then that ^^^
She moves (I think) 20M with her first Blink (I might be wrong)... so that's why her range addons are used
So what if her Range addons added more fatigue and longer recharge... would that be good enough (sense double Range would just increase fatigue and recharge times)
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Listen, I agree, on the whole, Nurse's mere existence isn't a problem. That's what you guys are failing to see, I LIKE Nurse.
But PLEASE, for the LOVE of GOD, explain to me why it's okay that post-blink hits are counted as basic attacks. Name a single reason that SHOULDN'T be a special attack. I IMPLORE you, and literally everybody on this forum, to paint me the numbers on that one.
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20, then 12, you are right.
It has to be noted that the longer the blink, the easier it is to juke her (She blinks, she does not teleport).
I went against several Nurses since I came back to the game. At best they got a draw, killing the two utter beginners that were grouped with me.
When I play her, about half the team I verse are quite decent and manage to win (or it's a close one).
I feel there is an ever-increasing number of survivors learning the proper skills to survive a chase long enough : after all, not everybody rage-quits in face of a new challenge.
The recent statistics are pretty representative of my own experience. (I'm a way better killer than a survivor)
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Because Nurse isn't over performing in comparison to the other Killers. I personally don't care if they make Blink attacks a special attack or not but, if they do, that diminishes the argument for Nurse to be slower than survivors. If survivors just run in a straight line Nurse literally needs to use her power to make any hits. She doesn't have an option to basic attack in most circumstances which makes Exposed perks next to useless on her without Blinks.
So, which sounds better? A faster Nurse but Blink attacks are M2s or a Nurse whose Blink attacks are M1s but can't catch up to survivors without her power? I personally don't care either way but Nurse isn't over performing so I don't see any pressing reason to make changes when items such as solo queue status icons and help for Killers like Trapper are more needed.
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This.
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Faster nurse with M2s, any day of the week. That way she CAN earn exposed downs, but actually has to earn them the good ole-fashioned way that every other killer has to earn them. I literally never argued Nurse should be slower than survivors. I never argued Nurse was particularly a problem outside of the highest highest levels of play, which is what I consider half-exposed-half-aura builds, whether they occur at "high MMR" or not (especially given that actual MMR is completely intangible to us as players anyways). Even if in effect it looks like the Nurse blinking in front of you to bodyblock, eating the fatigue in your face, then catching back up to M1 you, that's perfectly acceptable IMO.
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Ok thanks...
I've noticed that as well
That's ironic... LOL
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None of the perks affected by the M2 thing matter very much. Top Nurses run gen regression perks. Something like starstruck also don’t reveal when someone is exposed, so the survivor can play around it
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Killers playing at the absolute highest level should be winning games. Unless you are claiming to be a highest level survivor, they why do you think you deserve to beat a highest level Nurse?
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ok
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Nerf pig!
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Okay, cool. I'm not saying you said Nurse should be slower than survivors but that's part of the reason why Nurse's attacks are considered M1s. There are a lot of threads about nerfing Nurse but a lot of them are just blanket nerf calls (in general, not specifically anyone) but very few consider both sides.
I just think the arguments for nerfing Nurse's blink attacks sound more reasonable and are more likely to be considered if people take into account why they exist and make suggestions as to how to change things. Personally, if I were a dev, I would take a post that's 'hey, I think is problematic but I know it's here for x reason. Here's a possible solution' more seriously than the calls for blanket nerfs.
I think she'd still be fun to play either way but I'm just mentioning it because most people, not you, but most who complain about Nurse just sound like they don't know how to counter Nurse or don't want to learn how. Saying it feels more fair if this happens but this is also given so it's fair to Nurse players strikes a different chord.
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Hillbilly is hard, but it's not because hes hard to get the hang of, but actually because he just isn't a great killer. (99% due to the overheat change).
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That's because all the noobs they try her out like 5 times fail at using her and then just throw her in the trash, and that inflates the info GREATLY
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That's what I meant in this point.
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Hopefully they listen to the one trillion people begging for her to be nerfed, but I doubt it'll happen, all things considered.
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We always don't know, maybe someday it will happen or she'll be the one for the entire lifespan of this game.
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I agree with you, but why did you pick Pablo? What did Pablo Gonzales do to you
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nah man thats not possible
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again - sarcasm
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common "completely oblivious child whose mum made his username" type username in another game I play, thought it'd be funny lmao
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winning games =/= using perks to rig the game from the start, at least, it shouldn't
I even dislike that in some scenarios, as Trapper, at any MMR, you can abuse the basement spawns and bushes on Dead Dawg for an instant 4k at 3-4 gens, solely by bringing a Dusty Noose and Agitation+Iron Grasp. Killers or survivors being able to predetermine the outcome of a match entirely with just perks or offerings is a bit... Eh. Doesn't feel good, kinda makes me think there's a little bit of a crack in the hull.
Also,
Cram it with the "oh, so you think you're the best player in the world" argument I see you using all over the damn place lmao, I'm literally not speaking about my own ability, or any other specific person's ability, nor should you, because it's completely irrelevant, and derailing is a silly, silly thing for silly, silly people who don't have a real point.
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When you say "dare I say, "good" way to balance things, dictates that if things function off-kilter or too strongly at the highest possible level," you're saying that Nurse should be nerfed because of her performance at the highest possible level. She should be over performing at the highest possible level because MMR ensures that most of her opponents will be a much lower skill level than she is.
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Doesn't mean I'm wrong
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Stats only matter when you say they do.
I guess Dredge is one of the best killers? Or Wesker is supremely OP, eh? No to either one, so you should know that these stats aren't telling even close to the whole story.
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Realistically, average.
However, there are also a ton of reasons to balance around top players.
What I would personally do is balance around more experienced average level players.
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My point here is that she clearly isn’t a problem or dominating the game like everyone here says. If what people say is true, then Nurse only dominates at the top .001%. Most say that the game shouldn’t be balanced around that level, so therefore this discussion should be over.
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No.
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Hillbilly has a lower skill floor anyone can get close and hit a chainsaw with a little practice. But his skill ceiling is huge so he's harder to master.
Nurse has a huge skill floor because she's slower then survivors and you have to learn to blink timing and some addons even change that but her ceiling isn't much higher then her floor. So once your good with her there's not much left tell you pretty much master her.
Blight has both a huge floor and cleaning and is made of butter so f blight.
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nerfing nurse straight away! the prophesy has been fulfilled.
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The thing is, SWF is fine, there isnt anything they can do that solo queue cant do. Yes, they could communicate info, but that is kinda to be expected and overall, modern dbd is balanced with that in mind(back in the day, being a solo survivor was basically what being a duo is today, and SWF back in the day was basically equal to what a 7 blink Nurse would be in today's meta).
People often try to point at killers and consider them to be the golden standard when it comes to balance, but realistically, that falls apart as killers dont face other killers. SWF is the golden standard when it comes to balance. Solo survivor and killers need to be balanced around SWF. You literally cannot nerf SWF without killing the game, nor can you actively buff survivor without buffing SWF(why do you think the information update, which was promised almost a year ago, still hasnt been released? It's really difficult to give survivors a non-verbal way of sharing info with other teammates, without buffing SWF. Personally, I feel like survivors need at least a killer instinct-like feature to locate teammates.). And for killers and solo survivors to be able to be buffed, Nurse needs to be nerfed(blight too, but blight needs it much less).
When you have an issue around killers, where 75% of the roster has issues the moment communications are introduced, and out of the remaining 25%, only 2 killers are capable of consistently winning against hardcore communications, then you have 2 killers who are extremely overpowered in relation to 90% of the other killers. Preferably, the gap between Myers and Nurse should be 15% in killrate when facing S-tier survivor squads. Myers being at the low end of 55%(2.1 kills on average), and Nurse close to 70%(2.8 kills on average). But right now, I am fairly certain that Myers doesnt even appear in S-tier survivor squad matches because he cant even reach that type of survivor. This doesnt indicate that Myers is an underpowered killer(I mean, his basekit does need some love, for sure, but overall, he's quite a solid killer), but that killer overall is underpowered compared to SWF.
Yet on the whole spectrum, killer is overpowered compared to survivor, but that is due to the gap between solo survivor and SWF being far larger than Myers and Nurse. Even if the current best Myers would go against S-tier survivors, he would still have a killrate of about 30% because there are many ways he can secure a kill(tombstone piece, camping with perma t3, mass slugging) and the current best Nurse would currently have an average killrate of 70% easily. That's "only" a gap of 40%, including the fact that Myers is already due a bit of a basekit buff overall.
Yet, the average escape rates of the current best SWF's can be close to 90%, where focussing on 1 person escaping can easily guarantee their win. Yet the highest solo q survivors can have escape rates of 40%. Thats a 50% gap. (gotta make a note here, these numbers arent taken from anywhere and are by no means accurate in their number, they simply are to represent the state of balance relative to each other)
Nurse is "healthy" at her 70% in the highest ranks. Especially considering the 60% average killrates. But with the rest of the killers in the highest ranks dropping to 45% or even lower means that killers need a basekit buff. But that demands a nerf on Nurse and Blight. This also allows for survivors to recieve a relatively minor buff for SWF, which will hugely impact solo survivors and close the gap between solo and SWF.
As for the most needed nerf on Nurse, well, I'd actually say she's in dire need of an addon pass. Because even if a Nurse doesnt use M1 perks, she still slaps heavily. Her recharge and distance addons are overkill for her basekit. Her other addons barely see the light of day. Make her M1 an M2, and you still suffer from those problems. Nurse without addons is nearly powerful enough to consistently face the highest tiers of survivors without relying on m1 perks. Key point being nearly. Meaning you can fully rework her addons and make her an m2 killer, and then she'd underperform. Which opens up another basekit killer buff(personally, I would focus on practically useless killer mechanics right now, like vaulting windows, checking/interacting with lockers, focussing on all 4 survivors rewarding killers and focussing on 1 or 2 being more punishing to killers which is the opposite of the current meta). This would also allow for more in-depth changes in basekits on both sides, because you could consider a variable to killers where if they are facing survivors who have higher winrates than you do, you gain a relative buff untill 1 survivor dies(discouraging tunneling), and if you are facing survivors with lower winrates than you do, they gain a relative buff that they keep untill they finished 3 gens before 1 survivor dies(meaning they keep the buff if 1 survivor dies before the 3rd gen is popped, or maybe increase the effects of the buff if that happens, discouraging tunneling). This would mess with SBMM, but it would also make a match a lot more fair as there is only so much you can prepare for. Killers cant switch characters when they encounter a SWF, survivors cant leave without penalty if they encounter a sweaty Nurse. Giving the side that is playing with the biggest handicap a buff.
These are all just ideas pulled from nowhere, and they all have different balancing implications, but at this point, Nurse is a monster at tunneling survivors. DS doesnt deter her, Off The Record doesnt deter her, BT+Guardian(which is a 17% speedboost btw) doesnt deter her. This alone is awful gamedesign without any indication of wanting to nerf Nurse, especially considering that they wanted 6.0 to be the update that "fixed" camping and tunneling.
Which is basically my biggest demand that killers like Nurse deserve a nerf ASAP anyway, because 6.0 was promised to be the patch that made chases overall easier, combat camping and tunneling, remove the boring slowdown meta. And what did we end up with? A boring slowdown meta, easier chases, nothing to combat camping and the changes to tunneling dont matter because the slowdown and easier chases make even killers like Trapper and Pig extremely easy to tunnel with, without too much hassle.
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