Is Dbd a "pay to win" game? My answer is...
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The definition of pay to win is paying money to get access to the best stuff. The best stuff is free is not pay to win
It doesn't matter if your friends good with PH or whatever they are not the strongest nurse is.
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Accesing the best stuff earlier is still p2w. I could play nurse as a new player, but without some meta perks (which many happen to be licensed), I will be on a considerable disadvantage to another player who buys those characters for easier access to perk.
I can currently theoretically unlock hyperfocus (not ENTIRELY behind a paywall). But the question is: considering I'll probably have to wait 2 years to, won't I be at a disadvantage to someone who simply bought the dlc?
And to bring my point again: if nurse would be nerfed, what would happen then? Blight, spirit, aritst, plague, oni, ph, etc are all paid. Huntress, the next best free killer after nurse, comes behind many paywall ocs and even licensed characters. Isn't that p2w?
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Ok so wait, if they buff or release a licensed killer to the Nurse tier, or they nerf the Nurse and Blight to their tier... What will you say then?
If the paid licensed killer will be a strongest killer in the game, you'll consider this game as a P2W? Or..?
Don't you think this is kinda stupid that 1 killer is actually "holding" the whole moral of this game being "Not p2w"?
Does this mean they never nerf her and never release an S-tier licensed killer?
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The funniest thing about this argument is it can be debunked with one game series... Mortal Kombat/Injustice. It is literally a game you pay to buy comes with a roster of fighters, and then they release DLC which costs extra not only bringing in additional characters licenced from outside their game, but you also have to pay for extra characters that they hold the licence to, like when they put MK characters in Injustice and vice versa, or when they add additional DC characters into Injustice.
There is a development cost involved in creating content, and you have been spoiled by the fact that there is an in game way to unlock content instead of having to buy it outright.
There is zero requirement to buy any licensed characters for perks or otherwise to allow you to have good chance at winning.
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It's not the only reason but it's the most obvious.
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Theoretically, most of the content is free, so I'm not sure it's pay-to-win, but there's definitely a two-tiered system where the experience for "free" players (or, you know, players who only bought the base game) is deliberately a lot more tedious and draining than the experience for players who pay to accelerate the process of collecting characters, perks, and cosmetics.
There is such a thing as games where all of the abilities / character classes are unlocked by default, and you're just collecting emotes and cosmetics -- this is not like that. It's somewhere in between a system where everything's available and one where it's all behind a paywall.
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No you don't need meta perks on Nurse you can go perkless Nurse and be fine.
Perks don't win you games if you gave a new player the best perks and said go get a 4k against people that know how to play,that wouldn't happen would it. But in a pay to win game you could spend the money to skip the grind and the skill.
On your list the first paid killer is like 5th they would have to completely nerf a chunk you the roster for a licensed killer to be to.
Licensed characters have to cost money because it's part of there deal that's how it is.
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I mean it's incredibly simple. You can win the game with any character in the roster. You're not forced to pay anything to be able to compete even if they nerfed Nurse to the gutter. You'd still be able to use any of the free killers.
It's also completely unreasonable to say that a game that's been out for 6 years should never have any paid DLC content and it's completely unreasonable to declare that because your friend played 3 matches and got 4ks as a specific killer that that killer is the best "for your friend" and therefore makes the game pay to win.
I just don't really understand the point of this topic as the entire premise is completely unreasonable. You're playing as a licensed character with free to use multiplayer servers where most of the content can be unlocked for free and the game is continuously on sale for as low as $8 and has a $20 price tag on PC. On platforms where it's more expensive, it's still on sale something like 8 times a year and the number of free killers includes even more characters, one of which is Spirit who is another top tier.
Even if all of the top tiers that are free or unlicensed got nerfed. Pay to win is specifically when it is impossible or completely impractical to play the game at all without buying more paid content. You can be fairly successful and have a lot of fun playing with Wraith.
What exactly is your purpose with this topic besides what appears to be attempted trolling?
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I feel like in this thread I'm heading to some cheeky direction on "Bottlenecking" the balance, and how it will backfire in the future.
Firstly I just wanted to see people's opinions on the idea of this game being p2w, but now I'm really interested in some serious stuff about this game... Later.
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I mean I just bought every killer in the sale on a new account for like £40 and the game cost £5 so I really can't see how you could class a game that costs less than a new premium title pay to win.
Maybe it's just the fact that I've been playing mmorpgs on and off for years and seen people literally spend thousands of £££s in real p2w games, but I really can't see why a game that costs so little would be p2w. You wouldn't even need to buy all the killers for meta perks you could probably get away with 5 purchased killers to unlock every perk you need to play the game at the highest level. So you're looking at like £20 (including the game cost) in the sale to do this. It's hardly a number that is outwith probably 95% of the playerbase.
The fact that you can use in game currency earned through playing to purchase said killers/survivors would also make it pay for convenience (unlock things faster) over p2w, but I wouldn't even put it in that category because it costs so little in both aspects (money or time played).
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I don't think pay-to-win is the right choice of words for this game. All the strongest tools in the game are availabe basically for free. The problem is that new licensed characters sometimes come with very strong perks and since these new perks can't appear in the shrine for 12 months (I think?) you can either pay for the character/dlc or you need to wait.
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Any game with any elements that effect gameplay that can be brought is pay to win. It's more of an argument on how p2w it is, which dbd isn't that p2w at all in my opinion
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Yes, I get so annoyed personally at how casually people throw around the "pay to win' accusation. Maybe, just maybe, I could see it if Demogorgon or Executioner or Cenobite maybe were the strongest killers, but they aren't. Maybe even if licensed perks were restricted from the shrine, but they aren't.
If anything, this game is "Pay for Convienence" as I call it, but really not even then... cause, you don't have to buy the licensed killers to "win" unless you actually like them, and then... well, that's still not pay to win, that's pay to play a character you like that isn't free.
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This game is far from pay to win.Try a mobile game after $1000s of dollars it's my pleasure to pay DBD for anything really and most of the perks that are paid other then bbq & chilli aren't really that great.
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I could write a long list about this game's flaws but pay2win is not among it.
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P2W isn't about total dollars spent, its about locking balance behind a pay gate. Thats why this game toes the line so precariously, as it is not P2W by most standard definitions, but its nuances start to push it over the line very easily. As others have stated, by paying up front you are always putting yourself at an advantageous situation above others who don't (whether it be due to time to unlock, current meta, or synergy necessity) but "the best" option is free. It doesn't matter that nurse is arguibly the least accessible killer in the game, she's the most available so clearly everything is ok. It doesn't matter that the CoB/Overcharge synergy got "solved" by nerfing overcharge and leaving CoB untouched, Ruin and Corrupt getting bottomed out in favor of Eruption and Deadlock, these things still don't cross the most strict definition of p2w.
But boy are they trying to.
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So… not licensed after all.
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Blight, Spirit, Plague etc are all paid. The option of shards isn't favorable for your point, since that requires either grind or paying to skip the grind. And when the grind is required to win (as in, the best killers with a now nerfed nurse is a paid one), skipping it is p2w.
And for the record, perks can win you games. It's not that they are required for winning, but they provide an advantage. P2W isn't solely about being impossible to win without paying, it's also about paying providing an advantage.
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What a shocking turn of events. xD
I'm mind blowed!
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Once they release a licensed killer which is the same, or stronger than nurse and blight (which is going to happen "someday"), I'm curious to see, what the reaction will be.
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Most of the best perks in the game right now come from DLC characters, that sure you can technically get them free to play, but it would take you so long to grind for or get lucky that they show up in the store that I would 100% still consider it pay to win.
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The DLC for this game is so cheap and goes on sale pretty often. I know everyone isn't in a position to drop money on this game everytime a new chapter comes out, but when (the nearly monthly) sale for this game happens, you can get the older chapters, like the Halloween Licensed Chapter for $3.50 which comes with a Killer and a Survivor, it's even cheaper for the chapters that come with one. That's less than a quesadilla at Taco Bell. It's just hard for me to see how most people over the age of 18 would struggle to get together 4 dollars every few months.
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wait let me understand 1 thing:
You are saying the game is P2W because one of your friends can win only with a licensed character? and that character is Pyramid Head? did i get it right?
because if this is the thing i can firmly say that the game is not P2W just because of that, that's clearly a subjective case and almost a unique one, if your friend can only win with him is probably because he is in low mmr and only finds people that can't actually play against Pyramid head and those people would have the same problems with Huntress that has a similar (and almost identical) power, for most people Huntress is even better and she's Free.
and as others already pointed out, Blight (can be unlocked with playtime) and Nurse are free, the 2 strongest killers in the game.
i'm sorry OP but i can't understand the logic behind this post, if your friend can only win with Pyramid Head that's most likely a skill issue from both parts (survivor and killer)
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I think that's a bit of a grimy way to think about it. Many of the strongest perks are paywalled off and not everyone plays killer or is going to play the same killer in every game, in which the rest of the strongest killers are also paywalled.
This game is definitely pay to win to an extent and I don't really get why we pretend it isn't TBH.
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I'm sorry to inform you BUT top 3 killers are all original characters you can get for free by playing the game,,,and survivors are just skins ,,P2W means YOU MUST put money in the game to reach a certain point or power level,,,If anything dbd is really free to play friendly outside of the game's cost of course and even if you wanted licensed characters ,chapter often go in really good discounts
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This is not a pay to win game due to the shrine of secrets alone. You get rewarded in dbd the more you play and the more you want to learn on how to actually play the game on both sides.
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You've never played an actual pay to win video game.
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Yea, I swear it's like everyone wants to scream pay to win the second a game has any kind of additional DLC or something. Hell, people call another game I play Pay to Win even though it's mostly a PvE game and even then, the PvP aspects of the game levels are boosted to match up. The only thing you pay extra for beyond the ongoing PvE content is cosmetics... So basically it would be like if DBD just gave every killer free including licensed killers, their only money from cosmetics, and people would still say its pay to win.. cause uh.... I need this certain outfit to hide from the killer.
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What is your definition of pay to win ?
My idea of pay to win are mobile games, where you cannot win unless you pay, and not a little bit, often several K's.
Because of that, I cannot consider DBD a p2w, or close to it.
You don't need all the content to win. It is an option.
(Considering the game is very cheap to get at the moment: all the content is a 100 bucks, which is a good deal).
This game is alive at november 2022, with a great support of 7 years, made possible only by this ''economy''.
You don't need to pay to enjoy (and win), but we do need to keep it like this to have this game going and better every year :)
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P2W isn't exclusively locking wins behind a paywall. It is also granting advantages in gameplay to people who paid. If they were to make trapper the only killer unpaid, by your definition, it wouldn't be p2w, because you can still 4k as trapper.
Also, when characters granting you a power that makes you more likely to win are locked behind either a tedious grind or a paywall, that is also p2w. You can't possibly say that in the hypothetical scenario of Nurse being paid, a new player who pays for her will not have bigger chances to win than another new player who doesn't pay for her and instead grinds for hours.
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Honestly the game costs like £5. Do you expect the Devs just to run, add new content & constantly do updates for virtually free? If you enjoy the game, support it and spend like £20 every now and again you cheapskates!
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Its kinda sad that the concept has been so abused in other games that people have been continuously shifting the goalposts to what is and isn't p2w. There is no concrete definition of the term in any major dictionary, its usage is colloquial by nature. The majority of people's specific definitions of it are all equally valid, as the only established constant behind them is to have a paywall be an aspect in game balance. Whether it be temporary/mandatory, subtle/egregious, unlockable/purchasable, as a concept it has had applications in all of these fields. The underlying factor is that the end user is encouraged to spend money to create/keep/maintain an advantage over not spending money.
Most people are right when they say that DBD is/isn't P2W, since the term has no strict established definition, yet most arguments both for and against it are consistent with how the term has (and continues to be) applied to many other games. The real concern is that since it does have some valid arguments based on the usage of the term, it is thus toeing the line in the eyes of how its practices are received by the userbase. Even when things aren't as bad as they are in many other games (and again, there are only a handful of problematic concerns imo) it will inevitibly cause the end user to make the comparisons and start conflating business practices. "it might not be as bad as dungeon keeper, but its still worse than league of legends" and so on.
Also the financial shaming is pretty gross if I'm honest. A few bucks might not mean much to a lot of people, but to others they might have already cut out a lot of their excess spending and are playing games like DBD specifically because they don't have additional funds to purchase other games or additional content. The reason why paid cosmetics paired with free content updates is such a well received metric is because it allows the end user to support games financially on their own terms, not forced ones. Someone who may have spent plenty on DLCs and skins in the past when having more stable income may not have the spare funds to keep up with the current viable meta now.
Nobody should be hiding behind a non-existant definition saying it either is or isn't p2w. The important thing is for both sides of the argument to step back and consider the business practices involved as to why people would think one way or the other, and consider their grievences and reassurances on equal terms.
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I would say yes...
If you want all the cool perks, you defo need to buy some content.
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You can unlock perks with shards when BHVR lets us. You either have to pay for licensed DLC or wait weeks and weeks because of how the shrine of secrets is set up. Let's not pretend money isn't a factor to how well you can do in the game coming from someone with every DLC. Soul Guard has never appeared in the shrine. Lethal Pursuer has never appeared in the shrine.
It can be many months between times strong licensed perks appear in the shrine which can otherwise only be obtained through paying. If the shrine wasn't a weekly rotation with only 4 perks this argument would be fair, but it's extremely disingenuous the way you say it right now.
Personally speaking I have no problem with the way killers are set up (other than the fact that there is no possible way to access Demogorgon's gameplay if you didn't own him before), it's like a fighting game in that new characters are naturally going to be paid. The perks however are extremely defining of how well you can do and definitely skirt the line of P2W. It's 100% something that can be fixed though without changing the business model of the game at all.
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But the data shows she is not. Unless you agree that the data might be flawed there.
If that is the case, when are fixing SWF and Top tier 0.01% survivors?
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I think the term "Pay to Win" isnt the correct term for DBD. Is DBD P2W...no its not in the traditional sence. Pay 2 Win generally means you can pay extra to get a huge advantage in game. Now yes buying the DLC does give you an advantage in some ways however because its DLC I don't think its fair to call it p2w.
By saying DLC is Pay to Win you have to class any game that has optional DLC a Pay to Win game. For example games like World of warcraft can be played at any DLC level so its optional however buying the DLC gives you more of an advantage (higher level, more classes and so on).
Ark survivival evolved is another game with optional DLC. If you own just the base game you will be at a sevear disadvantage on official PVP servers because you won't have access to the other maps to get the new dinos and so on.
So yeah you get an advantage buying new content but just because you have access to more things doesnt mean you will always win. As mandy said the Nurse is free and regardless of perks in the right hands she is a powerful killler (not the strongest overall but strongest in the hands of really good nurse players).
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WHo said locking wins behind a paywall ? I literally just said the 3 top killers are original characters and you don't have to spend a single cent to play as,,I can accept the term "pay to skip grind" though but P2W nowhere near
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Personally i think you have a skill issue or have become entitled. Some killers take way more time to process there abilities and others you can just pick up and play. You could even say the same thing about survivor perks. If you see these things as pay to win in DBD you are completely blind since the game has always been based on procederal generation in the first place.
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Damn, nice aggressivity, didn't know a different pov can hurt you so much.
You also missed my point entirely, I literally didn't speak about difficulty at all.
P2W means YOU MUST put money in the game to reach a certain point or power level
Unless I can't read, that's pretty much what YOU said.
And pay to skip grind is another breed of p2w. For dbd, it's not as bad of one, but look at a game like clash royale as I said in an older comment. You could 100% win without op characters and you could 100% unlock all the characters by playing. But because of the grind being so tedious and based on luck, people who just spent thousands got everything right off the bat and dominated f2p players.
Since by your logic, p2 skip grind isn't p2w, a game like CR isn't p2w either.
It's not that dbd has as strong of a p2w mechanic as other games, but it is there mostly in the form of perks. Many, but MANY VERY usefull or outright op perks are locked behind a paywall. The shrine is also not even close to a "fix". The 4 perks rotation worked when there were 33 perks as when it was released. With the current hundreds of perks it's extremely stupid. It's been over 2 years since SH and we've had no Soul Guard in shrine (a good perk). Over an year and no lethal pursuer and I'm not sure about eruption (very good perks). Before the nerf, BBQ had appeared like 3 times (meta perk)
Those were just some mere examples. They absolutely should rework the shrine. Currently it's a disastrous counter to p2w and buying anything from it is a scam.
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Just play the game and stop complaining. You players are getting ridiculous, not the devs or anyone elses fault that you're too lazy to earn.
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Lazy? Maybe think about how I don't have TIME to play to earn those things? Most people out there have jobs, school, family etc.
Also, for the record
For my country, that is more than half what a better than average salary worker is paid a month. And a better than average salary is barely enough to live with current prices.
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It's not p2w. It's pay for fun/variety. Nurse - free, Blight/Artist - shards, Plague/Dredge (based on killrates they are top 3) - shards aswell
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I honestly do not think it is pay to win.
Play to win is a concept that is very much a given in any game. I played free only for the most time and only bought perks from the shrine and I was doing fine.
The best survivor perks are on the free survivors: Dead Hard, Sprint Burst, Adrenaline, Borrow Time and UnbreakaBill. Also there are now many "free" perks that are pretty good too: Kindred, Spine Chill and We`ll make it.
Sure it takes some grind, but especially after the latest changes this was reduced by a ton. Shards are coming with every level up and through events too. As such you are able to fill your purse quit quickly by playing and waiting for a good shrine or to buy a new survivor.
The "best" survivor perks are also on free survivors right now: Off the Record comes with Zarina, Deliverance comes with Adam, Lithe comes with Ming and Boon: Cycle of Healing comes with Michaela. Looking back I would probably buy Michaela first to add Cycle to my arsenal for a perfectly fine build: Sprint Burst, Cycle of Healing, Kindred and Borrow Time.
For Killers it hits a bit different. There are some strong perks locked on licensed Killers (Call of Brine, Deadlock and more). However the strongest Killer is for free (Nurse), the best beginner Killer also (Wraith) and another dope Killer with Huntress is also included.
On perks you can get some descent from the free perks: Hex: No one escapes Death, Jolt, Sloppy Butcher and Whispers. If you level the base Killers there are also the three Hillbilly perks for you (Tinkerer, Enduring, Lightborn), you can get A Nurse's Call for free and Brutal Strengh is very good at the beginning too.
You would not be able to build that strong of a Killer build early thou. However for Wraith Jolt, A Nurses, Sloppy Butcher and Whispers is quit okay.
Also there are many events when the Shrine rotates more and offers good perks on regular bases. You can save for those events and then spend you shards when they count.
For me DbD hits a good balance of free content and pay content.
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My definition of p2w - Anything that you can buy only for real money, which is affecting your gameplay. Exactly in dbd, I don't consider "cosmetics, skins, charms" as a p2w, same goes for perks (coz you just can buy them for in game currency through shrine, no matter how long you'll have to wait), but I do consider a licensed killers as, because some of the licensed killers have an obvious advantage over original ones.
People and even Community Manager keeps telling me that "Nurse is free and she's the strongest killer" without understanding that not everyone good with nurse and they might never be (playing on console, don't understanding or not liking her power).
Imo, community manager should never say something like "This killer is strongest", it makes me feel like developers keeping the balance issues on purpose to prevent people thinking like this game is p2w. Why don't they nerf the S-tier killers and buff other killers to the same "dificulty", that no matter what killer you play, it's a pure balance? Because more people will start to consider this game a p2w.
In what I'm trying to say: They never nerf these S-tier killers, and we never will have a proper balance, because of a licensed killers.
You're saying "This game is alive at november 2022, with a great support of 7 years due to this economy"? Completely disagree.
This game is still alive due to many reasons but most important once are:
- This game have no good competitors since it's release.
- Game is alive because of it's community, who endured all bugs and unfair gameplay.
- This game was (and might still be) very popular on Twitch, because of a Fog whisperers.
It has nothing to do with licensed killers, or the "some economy" that you mentioned imo.
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Dead by Daylight isn't even close to being pay-to-win in my opinion. There isn't even a universal description of "win" in this game. The more you play, the more you unlock and get rewarded.
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This isnt pay to win. this is the cost for the game plus all DLC in the game. The game is still about skill not "i have these perks i get an instant escape/4k"
If there was a way to buy a 3rd or 4th health state as survivor...thats pay 2 win.
Or pay for a weapon for all killers that are insta down m1 attack...thats pay 2 win.
Simply paying for created DLC is not pay 2 win and people need to get off their high horse who complain about the cost of a game. If you can't afford it then don't play it. if you don't like that also don't play it. This is a company out to make money and if they didnt charge for DLC that they spend months upon months on then the company would go out of business very quickly and we would have no game to play.
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But perks are in game advantages. And those 258€ will cut thousands of hours of grind. That is a species of p2w.
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I understand, you just want to be handed things in an pvp game while others will have to work for it(which is actually fun you shod try it). You could always play single player games, those will actually work with your schedule. DBD has one of the most fairest models i have seen in a long time and actually rewards you for sticking with it. You could be richy rich in DBD and lose consistently because you dont play the game enough. Looks like youll have to play the game some more.
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Even when buying DLCs you need to work to level them up to prestige 3 to unlock their perks on other characters, nobody has denied that. Thats not the same thing as needing to watch the shrine of secrets every single week, potentially for years, just to have a chance at getting perks that are tied to paid DLCs. Thats the bigger concern, especially whenever they are hard meta.
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I think what you said is normal and a good compromise for having a game fully supported and updated after almost 7 years.
All the "community work" is possible only because of the constant updates. Monster Hunter World is a magnificent game, with a wonderful community, and it is now almost dead, after 4 years, because they stopped adding content. I am sure you can find many examples.
This game is alive because of its economy. And it's a particularly good one. There are not even plans of a sequel because of that.
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