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Unbreakable Basekit? Did it get scrapped?
Comments
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Ah, I see. Hatch doesn't interact with Last Standing. Thought you mentioned that it did.
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Unbreakable base kit is fine. I just hope they don't add those godawful mori changes.
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I blame that dude for hiding while slugged so they won’t get found. Now your on the ground too long …your fault. Use the perk or the boon and stop complaining
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Yeah, I guess it can get confusing between “last standing” and “last living”. The hatch appears when only one survivor is living, and the new system is the game ends when nobody is standing. So you can still escape down the hatch in the new system, you just can’t do it while downed.
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I don't even care about it weakening Killer or find slugging that annoying/oppressive of a strategy. I'm just tired of running Unbreakable in all of my builds in the off chance I do get slugged long enough to even use it. I actually like running fun, synergistic builds but having to run this perk that ends up being a wasted slot most of the time is what is getting annoying.
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Hopefully they throw it out. While I don’t think it was necessarily impossible to balance with some changes, I don’t think it made the game better overall and it also completely ruins what made moris actually something special. It turned them into a cinematic nobody will actually care about anymore after seeing it a few times at the end of a match the killer wins, instead of them being reserved only for offerings and the occasional devour hope win. It also had rippling effects on several other aspects of the game on both sides, such as making sabotage indirectly much stronger (nobody needs to come heal that survivor anymore resulting in more gen time for teammates) as well as weakening several perks on both sides that would lose a lot of their value if survivors can fully recover on their own, albeit a bit slower. There’s more to it than that but that’s just a couple of examples. And if anything I think it would’ve been far more detrimental to weaker killers than those like nurse and blight, and that is not a direction we should be going in.
I will agree slugging for 4k in the current system is incredibly boring from the survivor’s POV and is something that could stand to be addressed, but this wasn’t a good solution for it (and the new ebony mori offering even encouraged doing so anyway because it was completely out of your control and came down to hatch rng if you didn’t slug for it).
Not to mention that it would’ve also completely ruined some of the fun stuff like slug races, mori photobombs, etc. Obviously that’s not as relevant to gameplay, but I know several players including myself care about fun moments in the game like that too, regardless of which side we’re playing.
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i want perks that give move value as well. So I NEVER complain about slugging.
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What s next?… survivors hate being injured and it’s too risky to be in that state so everyone get base self-care….lol
Many things are available to help aspects of the game you want to avoid. Run the perks = issue fixed
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Another thought about your mind set.
As a killer you can’t be upset gens get done too fast when you don’t run gen perks and They want to run “fun/synergetic’” chase perks instead. Case closed.
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Being injured doesn't lose games. Getting in a situation where the Killer ends up slugging everyone (Starstruck Nurse for example) can lose games. Yeah we can argue it might have been on the Survivors side for making mistakes or whatever other variables, but it's still not something one can predict the Killer is going to do. That's why it feels necessary to run Unbreakable, because that situation is just a big bummer and it is your only hope of turning the tides unless Exponential just happens to be up and you are close enough to utilize it.
Like I said, I don't care if it makes it in either way because I know it will hurt Killer and I can still just run Unbreakable. But I get why they considered adding it because it just removes that feeling of necessity, just like it used to feel with DS and BT for tunneling.
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That’s called winning. Slugging is going to happen Base kit or not - boon or not- unbreakable or not. I will still slug if I need to. If survivors swarm, sabo, or in a bad position I can capitalize on. I will slug you, they will slug you. It’s never going away no matter what.
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God I hope not, I know unpopular opinion but I got bled out twice last night and its so boring so please bring it into live as soon as they can.
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Another idea that was floated and nothing happens. Sort of like any sense of balancing solo queue
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Huh? Yeah of course it's a way to win. I slug as Killer also. But it's not an auto win if at least one or two have Unbreakable. That's my point. It feels like you HAVE to run it just so the Killer doesn't steamroll a match by slugging. If it's base, at least Killer will have to think a little bit about doing it instead of just going ham with little fear that someone will pick themselves up.
I can't control the other 3 Survivors to not misplay and throw the whole match by being too altruistic or whatever else they did to cause the snowball of slugging.
I would hope they could implement it in a way that doesn't just flat out invalidate slugging though, cuz that would be a bummer too.
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I and others will still slug no matter what the base kit or perks are…again it will NEVER go away
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Aaaand I'm talking to a wall. Hi Wall, I'm Nick. Nice to meet you. Have a great day :)
But in all seriousness, I said at the end I HONESTLY don't want slugging invalidated...but I'll end it there. No point in trying to have a friendly argument with a brick wall.
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It would be nice if it actually did. But appearantly they want to force another PTB on us where people will again probably be highly displeased about the whole idea.
I am concerned, cause people have been saying BHVR did too much work into the system to scrap it completely, when it would be the only reasonable thing to do. Like litteraly almost noone wants it. Glad the bots will be out soon so if UB basekit becomes a thing next year i can just avoid playing online anymore, which would be a shame. But i didnt buy this game to experience swf bully simulator. And my survival rate at soloQ is alredy low, so excited to see even more nurse and campers ending games even earlyer because they can slugg people for over altruistic 3man squads i get paired with.
The far future for dbd does in fact taste bitter, i cant understand why they would go for another PTB about it at all, after all of the responses from the previous one.
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No it should stay like it is. If you want to get up off the floor bring unbreakable, no mither or the boon.
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So they'll introduce more Perks that allow you to pick yourself up. Why not a Inner Healing-like Self-pickup Perk for Cleansing a Totem?
And non of that addresses excessive slugging proxy (1min+) which is something that is conditionally done by how the Killer feels to play.
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No word from the devs. Personally I hope the Mori rework ends up being something else entirely. Ideally something that doesn't mess with Devour Hope or Rancor and scraps basekit Unbreakable in favor of BUFFING the weaker anti slug perks like No Mither, Exponential and Soul Guard instead.
Really I think they should just make Cypress Memento Mori basekit and have it work somewhat similar to the system we saw in the PTB. But instead of starting automatically (because that kills giving the last survivor hatch) you still have to manually do it. And THEN it does the screen wipe and map teleport. But the other Mori's work the same.
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While I don't agree with Camping and tunneling, slugging is perfectly fine. There is a risk reward to it for killer and survivor's have to make mistake's for it to be game winning. Like the only time it's unfair is with nurse and iri tag alch ring blight which I doubt you have ever gone against. Competitive game's put you in unfun situations sometimes and I would argue as survivor slugging is the least unfun in the category. Actually I would argue that slugging in the egc vs a swf is the most fun and skill expression in the game for both sides. In my 60 games of survivor in the last 2 months I have been bled out 0 times, proxy camped twice and Tunneled for real once. Killer's really don't slug often and the especially don't leave you to bleed out often, I have never seen it on survivor side ever.
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Thank you for the response, this is honestly probably for the best in my opinion ^^
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I was actually genuinely curious about this portion of it, from Killer's perspective, how much effective time that would save in matches and would it actually sort of feel better than people are expecting.
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How often does this really happen though? I may just be lucky, but I think in my entire 5+ years of playing DBD I've only had this happen to me one time on Survivor.
And I have never once done it as Killer because it is literally a waste of my own time as well.
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I mean I used to. Wanted to figure out how to get a 2K with the least amount of effort possible.
Proxy-camp bubba, tunneling, slugging for an altruism trap, always returning to hook when the notification pops, all work pretty well because I always know where a survivor is, and where another will likely be heading to, just from basic game mechanics.
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You and I are talking about entirely different things. I am talking about slugging for the 4k when there are two survivors left. You are talking about any and all slugging, which every killer does to some extent.
The situation I am talking about happens extremely frequently. It is in dire need of being fixed.
The situation you are talking about is a part of normal gameplay. For the situation you are talking about, the added basekit change plus the Unbreakable perk may be too strong, and even the default 45 seconds may be too quick (even though in all the games I have played as killer since the announcement there hasn't been a single situation where the survivor team would have benefited from a 45 second basekit self pick-up - it won't be as strong as people say if it gets implemented).
Try not to assume things, by the way. There hasn't been even a moment since the mmr system was introduced that I haven't been top mmr for both survivor and killer.
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When the 'fun stuff' is getting in the way of 'ending the game early' you know you're not enjoying yourself and need to go play something else.
This is the same sort of argument used in favour of DCing for frivolous issues.
If you don't want to play the game, then don't play.
It doesn't matter how rare it is, it happens, and it deserves to happen.
4%ing rarely happens. That's not a reason to remove the ability to attempt to unhook yourself.
You're ultimately removing gameplay options, watering the game down, and reducing it to a formulaic gameplay loop that will end up forcing killers into the same few effective tactics like camping and tunneling, abd making games sweatier because there's fewer avenues to 'have fun' with the system.
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I hope it stays. No longer slugging for the 4K.
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The proposed system encourages slugging for the 4K. It's the only way to secure a finisher mori.
It's slugging at every other stage of the game that it discourages.
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exactly, i really dont understand how anyone could possibly come up with a system like that, but appearantly here we are. I also absolutly love the fake argument of "moris used out of spite" on which this whole change is "justifyied"
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Hopefully scrapped entirely. Basekit yellow mori that manually triggers the cinematic would be fine without ruining gameplay.
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I think the most common endgames where the killer wins and has cleanup are
- Three dead and one left standing. Normally either the survivor dies after getting downed (barring some rare Decisive Strike play or really unlucky hook placement) or they find the hatch or open a gate and get out before getting downed. If they get downed it takes about 10 seconds to hook them so it’s mostly a wash time-wise with a mori animation.
- Two survivors left alive, one is downed and the other is spotted and chased. If the killer downs them they get hooked and then the killer has to go find the other previously downed survivor and hook them to end it (barring them getting up in the meantime with Unbreakable very occasionally). Best case It takes 10 seconds to do that first hook and then probably another at least 10 seconds to walk over to where the first survivor was downed and 10 more seconds to hook them. Worst case you hook the first survivor and the second survivor has crawled away into a hiding spot and you can’t find them so they bleed out over a few minutes of searching. So this situation the cleanup can last anywhere from 30 seconds to 3-4 minutes.
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We’re talking about the basekit UB in this thread.
The Finisher Mori system IMO should have never been used to justify it, nor should it have been used to balance the basekit UB for how short it is.
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Basekit Unbreakable was only necessary because of the finisher mori mechanic. The two go hand in hand, you don't have one without the other. There is no way they would have considered making such a strong, meta, second chance perk basekit if not for the fact that finisher mori's would promote slugging over hooking without it, and completely negate any purpose to the killers main objective.
Just look at the hoops they have to jump through to justify it, and all the other perks that involve the dying state that need to be reworked to accommodate it. It's insane.
That's not to say there isn't some place for a more limited version that would actually prevent slugging for the 4K. Something like:
"When all survivors in the trial are in the dying state or hooked, they gain the ability to pick themselves up from the dying state. This effect ends once a survivor is standing."
This would legitimately prevent slugging for the 4K, either at end game with two survivors, or early game with Nurses/Blights trying to bleedout four survivors at once. It would mean you could never keep all survivors on the ground at once, as soon as the last one goes down, another can pop back up. Plus it wouldn't require every other dying state perk to be reworked, it would work just fine with all those perks as they are.
This is in contrast to the proposed system that encourages killers to get all survivors on the ground at once, but simply puts an extra roadblock in the way of that goal.
Combine this with basekit Yellow Mori, like everyone has been requesting, to quickly finish off the last survivor, and you have the ideal set up. No unnecessary hoops or justifications, just better QoL for everyone involved. No more slugging for the 4K for real, and every game that doesn't end with the gates powered, will end with a fair race for the hatch, in which the survivor either escapes, or the killer gets their signature mori.
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I want to know what happened to the PTB where they made it so you can only be healed like twice and then you are hurt for the rest of the game. If they want to bring that back and then add unbrekable base kit as like a 90 second base thing so it's like 60 seconds with a perk - sure.
-"And non of that addresses excessive slugging proxy (1min+) which is something that is conditionally done by how the Killer feels to play."
Consider for a moment playing killer - since it is something I do not think you do regularly. Survivors want to break 3 gen setups with no regard to how that makes the killer feel. Leaving one person on the floor allows the killer to proxy the hook and the person on the floor. This causes tension and difficulty for the survivors. That is good for the killer. The moment he tries to hook both he will usually lose the first survivor on the hook. Why would you do that when you can force the survivors to make a save that you can guard? If you are greedy and go for the second hook you will almost certainly not get a hit. If you wait and slug you will get a hit and maybe another down (potentially before a rescue).
I would stop tunneling if a number of things happened. We don't need everything on this list but many of these should be changed if we want to talk about making the game fair.
- You cannot have "Y gens" which is what my friend called the opposite of a 3 gen. All maps would be sized down to 9000m² so there are no longer "huge" maps.
- The killer gets free and meaningful slowdown by hooking the person they did not hook last (such as +15% instant regression to the generator with the most progress for not tunneling). Something like basekit dying light would be fine (that affects everyone and has no +healing for survivors) and of course it would stack with Dying Light. That of course means after 6 hooks not on the obsession your base time for generator repair will be : 133 seconds.
- SWF is an option I can choose not to play against, Solo queue players get +4 perks when playing in a match with SWF (killer gets any perk, survivors only get "info perks" that are chosen ahead of the game and activate "in case of swf") OR SWF is limited to having no repeat perks, characters, offerings or items.
- Pallet/vault density is spread out so you cannot go pallet to pallet to pallet anymore. Likewsie no more than 2 structures would ever be "linked" for looping.
- When one party picks a map the other side picks which map in that tileset gets chosen. There would also always be one map outside of that tileset selected randomly. Example : survivors play a farm map offering. Any savvy killer will pick abattoir. But maybe the random option has midwitch so you pick that instead.
- All survivors start together on every map with one exception (see #7).
- An offering is added as "secret" for killer to replace the "surviovrs start apart/together" offerings. The secret offering returns all items/addons to survivors inventory. The yellow version prevents the killer from using any addons while the purple version lets the killer use their addons while forcing the survivors to leave their items/offerings behind. Survivors retain the offering to start as far away from the killer and gain a new one : start 20m away from the group in a locker. No more than one person may use the new survivor offering per match (extra copies are wasted).
- Blight and Nurse get brought down to "A" level and every killer is brought up to be close to them in terms of power. Maybe for example killers get a "sprint" move after hooking someone and they are not in a chase. Alternatively we could add teleport spots where all the other killers could teleport across the map instantly by going through a certain map wall. Much like MHW the survivors would not be able to use it.
- Killers get some basic slowdown such as either : base kit corrupt or base kit deadlock. Deadlock would just make the timer be 60 seconds. Also a "rollback protetion" would be added so that if you 99% two generators and try to cheat the perk then the other generator would rollback its completion and be on 99% completion. Corrupt would need a rework to remain a perk but Im sure it could be done.
- Gate regression is added so that if the switch on a gate is not held then the gate will not stay powered. This happens automatically with no input from the killer. Perks that help with gates could be buffed to pause the regression (such as sole survivor and wake up - not resilance).
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Even with Yellow Mori you'd still have slugging for the 4K so the last Survivor doesn't get hatch, just now you'd also be slugging for the 4K so you don't accidentally hook the 3rd Survivor and miss out on a Mori if the last Survivor escapes through Hatch and the 3rd Survivor was sacrificed on Hook.
It's not hard to justify a method for a Survivor to pick themselves up while downed.
- Dying survivors are unable to return to helping with Objectives indefinitely, requiring no additional effort from the Killer, unlike putting them on a Hook.
- Sans a Survivor sacrificing a Perk slot, the Killer can zone the slug to get more hits on rescuers, still pick the Survivor up, and then proxy Hook.
- Sans a Survivor sacrificing a Perk slot, the Killer knows the general location of two Survivors if the Survivor Icon changes from dying to Injured, in the event a Survivor avoids the slug proxy.
- The above all hinges on a slugged survivor not bringing a single Perk type. No Perk category should be that strong.
- On the flip side, a base positioning mechanic (slugging) should not be that strong either, as it necessitates its use over a Killers Power or other more engaging mechanics.
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Pretty much any day I play this game, I’m forced to let at least one survivor bleed out because I literally can’t get them to a hook. And the last 2 survivors I did this to, purposely ran to a specific corner of the map, because they knew there wasn’t a hook in range.
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- Y gens and 3 Gens are stupid. I want to add map-edge teleports so all Killers can move quickly between the sides of the maps. (And then spruce up Hatch in the event of a 3-Gen)
- Killer already gets free slowdown due to the altruism loop when there's a Hooked Survivor. The only thing that you lack most as a Killer is information to start the next chase off Hook to get the Repair/Chase/Hook/Unhook loop going.
- If there is a SoloQ only gamemode it probably would need all Perks/Items/Addons for every player disabled.
- I'd rather see more Perk or map interaction to shut down Loops/Pallets than to just remove them. Some Pallets spawn downed, Survivors get base-kit Any Means Necessary, pick them up or destroy them when you see them to add or remove to the chase prop pool.
- Maybe if they introduce a mode in which all players rotate between Killer and Survivor would I see the need for more competitive map choice.
- I agree, maybe with an odd outlier here and there. (And also remove the Killer Survivor separation shrouds like #########).
- A Survivor Offering to start in a Locker could be interesting. Given that start of match Lethal doesn't really have counterplay (and now that Lethal has use outside of the start of match). And I think an Offering that just makes all brought Survivor Items spawn in chests would be more interesting. If you did just want to remove them all then the Killer should not have a tier where they keep their Addons.
- Blight could see tweaks to the amount of charges the power has (or charge gain rate), and Nurse def only needs one Blink (increase the max range tho). Some Killers do need some love and care given the shift in meta and expanded knowledge base of players.
- I'd like to see collecting parts as a kind of pseudo corrupt at the start, but Deadlock is braindead and I dislike that perk given it's just free slowdown and is denial of an objective right in a players face.
- I think gate regression should only occur when the Killer interacts with it. And that opening the gate as Killer should be removed. And the EGC should start once the last gen is complete.
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people dont understand that if this update goes live they are going to get slugged MORE than without it.
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I hope so. All the changes that came with the base kit unbreakable idea were awful. That's all.
Also. I would like to understand why this idea was sth they were hardly working on (it made it to the ptb that's a pretty far way).
But making Kindred base kit or adding action-icons to survivors to make solo q a better experience, no. That's too... op? Kinda silly but ok.
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What did you not get about my suggestion? It would be impossible to slug for the 4K, not just discouraged, impossible. You down the last survivor, and the other one pops right back up. It would guarantee the last survivor is standing when the hatch spawns.
Slugging should always be an option mid-game to apply pressure. You're sacrificing a sure hook, in order to get another survivor off a gen to assist the dying survivor. Just like healing, you shouldn't be able to do it without either the aid of another survivor, or with the use of a perk. Otherwise you're introducing yet more power creep and forcing killers to camp and tunnel because they have no other recourse. The only time it should be prevented is slugging for the 4K, which my suggestion prevents.
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Ah. Comp corner. Hate that. But I like Hooks disappearing on a Sacrifice given it gives weight to the sacrifice. Wonder if maybe having a Hook disappear could become a tactical choice, rather than a default. Would need a reason to consume a hook though.
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Could come in the form of a novel Scourge perk. Sacrificed hooks aren't consumed, and any hook used to sacrifice a survivor becomes a new Scourge hook. However all survivors get 30s additional hook time or something.
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If it was a Perk it wouldn't have the downside. And to even be in the situation to begin with a Survivor would need to already be sacrificed, and on a Hook that causes a Comp Corner. Which would only consistently be performed (enough to warrant even bringing the Perk), if Survivors are able to consistently bring chase to a specific Hook, which in and of itself is problematic if they can actively prevent other Hooks from being used without sabo support with base Hook layouts.
I don't think the answer to Comp Corner is best solved with a Perk. Too niche for its potential.
In all honesty I do like the suggestion (under the assumption that the survivor doesn't just "pop up" if the other is downed, dependent on needing to recovery fully first). However I'd prefer an approach that is non-reliant on gamestate and self-contained that also addresses 1min+ slugging.
The unfortunate reality, with how it seems the implemented UB in the PTB, is that it seems they're unable to implement a system that isn't just an elongation of the recovery timer that also impacts existing recovery speed.
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If BHVR wants to punish killers for leaving survivors slugged on the ground, then killers should always have the option to hook a survivor, even if it's an action button to teleport the survivor to a random hook.
The basekit unbreakable update basically said that it's ok to delete slugging from the game because it's unfun for survivors, but we're going to make zero effort into helping killers so they don't have to slug survivors. How is that fair?
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If Survivors are intent on denying a Hook via things such as bodyblocking and sabotage, I think that's fine.
I don't like Comp Corner.
I don't think Killers should just be able to teleport to Hooks, thematically Hooks just not being consumed is still a better alternative than that.
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Then we shouldn't have a basekit unbreakable mechanic. Killers shouldn't be punished for slugging, if they are forced to slug.
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-"Killer already gets free slowdown due to the altruism loop when there's a Hooked Survivor. The only thing that you lack most as a Killer is information to start the next chase off Hook to get the Repair/Chase/Hook/Unhook loop going."
As soon as you get to efficient survivors that stops being true. Once upon a time we didn't have the extra 15 seconds per hook stage. Generally speaking now that extra time is used to finish gens not rush the unhook.
-"I'd like to see collecting parts as a kind of pseudo corrupt at the start, but Deadlock is braindead and I dislike that perk given it's just free slowdown and is denial of an objective right in a players face."
We suggested this years ago and I don't think they wanted to do it because of similarities to F13. Also sorry but gens can be finished in 4 minutes or faster. That's just too fast and the game needs some kind of natural slowdown built into the game.
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If they are forced to slug, it should be from interaction of other survivors that are taking time from working on a gen to interact with the Killer and survivor.
Not from map Hook spawns and Hooks being consumed such that a single dying survivor cannot be Hooked by any means with zero interaction from anyone else from the Survivor team simply because they know where to run after being found.
To both of these points some of the natural slowdown is that very same altrusim loop, getting survivors off of gens or away from them to help other survivors off hook and to Heal (even if they prioritize completing a generator first). Healing speed has been a growing issue, and MedKits still need to be nerfed to a slower self-healing speed or have their charges and charge addons reduced significantly.
I'm fairly certain 5 gens in less than 4 minutes is an outlier likely a result of poor matchmaking or a coordinated team bringing a bunch of Toolboxes. (I still don't like that Toolboxes increase repair speed instead of passively augmenting skillchecks with a focus on Hook sabotage, they are quite literally designed to work the best the less amount of time you interact with the Killer)
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Yep, slug races are rare enough for me. To never have them again would kill some quirky, occasional fun that's one of the few ways for survs and killers to mess around after a match. Though rare, I have been in a couple of matches where 3 survs have been down and the last in chase only to have someone with unbreakable get up and get the rest up for some pretty epic saves even if the end result was only 1 or 2 escapes. Those matches were still fun and thrilling because we were able to scrape and claw for something.
I don't think this potential new system adds anything to the game and instead subtracts a lot more.
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