Stop complaining about 3 gens
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The problem is not the 3-gen by itself. Survivors have a multitude of perks to break a 3-gen. The main problems are the gen kicking perks where the killer just holds the 3 gen from the start and there is barely anything soloQ survivors can do. The current gen kicking meta is too oppressive and boring. I used to love eruption before the perk overhaul now I'm disgusted by how overpowered it is. Probably the best gen perk of all time.
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Waiting around when all 4 are there... then that's a little much
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"Probably the best gen perk of all time."
You meant Pop goes the Weasel - pre nerf. Instant Regression after a hook. There was even a time you could use it with ruin/undying.
-"I'm not really sure how I'd personally want him buffed. I think basekit infinite tier 3 as you mentioned here might be too strong"
Look at Ghostface and his power. He has infinite possibility to use his power. He now can stalk survivors from ranges where they can't reveal him. He now has 60 seconds up from 30 seconds to get an instant down.
Michael has a limit on how much he can stalk. Basekit Infinite T3 in a "final form" would really make him scary and make him very different.
The fact that he gets very little stalk at long range and had his multi stalk capabilities removed (about a week after his release) keep him quite weak.
You can play GF as a M1 killer but you can't do that with MM because his start is so damn terrible. You either need to keep the slow start and say ok : base kit +5% speed in T3 from now on or remove the T1 nonsense where you have no lunge.
"-undetectable is fairly weak for the most part, but I always thought it would be neat in T2 stalking makes myers undetectable."
Survivors would definitely have a lot more trouble if he had undetectable in T2. Most people can loop only because the red light exists. If MM had that turned "off" in t2 as basekit that would be a decent buff.
-"slowly getting his 300 tier ups achievement, because I really find him boring to play as."
He was actually a pretty fun kill to play from 2016-2018. Unfortunately he has been "left behind".
Now unfortunately they just nerfed him with the 6.4 patch that was aimed at nerfing Wesker. Legion also got nerfed. In short : killers cannot have any type of perk window vault speed adjustments if their power also gives a movement speed adjustment through vaults. That really hurts MM and Legion as both greatly benefited from Bamboozle.
-"Assuming tombstone/tombstone piece was removed"
Consider for a moment that he has limited stalk. Assume they said ok we're using my plan so that normally he would get to infinite T3 on the "third form". Look at how the purple tombstone works.
They could keep this addon and basically make it so that using this addon will kick you out of Inifnite T3. Getting kicked back into T2 would be a downgrade because you might not be able to get back to T3. If Infinite T3 is base kit then this really loses a lot of appeal. That would let people use it if they really want but overall it would greatly nerf the addon. Maybe the way it works is that you need to fully drain every survivor to be able to go into infinite T3 a second time if you use this addon.
Actually it would likely be more simple to have this addon just kick you back to the new "t1" which is old t2. Then you kiinda play him "normal" like you would now. You trade infinite base kit T3 for the ability to kill with limited T3. Then when the timer runs our or you kill someone you go back to "old T2". They could also change this addon and make you lose undetectable status when you use this addon.
Note this addon as well :
If they redid Michael like I suggest then this addon would give you wall hacks and the power to hit "old T3" in the new T2. That would be scary to go against. Because this is something of a meme addon the 150% BP would need to get removed.
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I have just last weekend. Against a Pig who tried a three gen from the very start on Azarov's Resting Place. The team did exactly what I described without any coordination.
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It's really killer dependent. For M1 killers, just staying at the 3 gens is a recipe for disaster, as if you have 4 survivors, heck even 3 survivors in a 3 gen situation, they can slowly hit and run on the repairing the moment you start chasing one away. An inevitable loss for the killer. The moment he chases someone off the gen, another survivor swings in and continues repairing. If the killer just sits on that gen, then the other survivor just jumps on one of the other two. The killer can't commit to chasing a survivor, as the gen gets a load of progress done while he's chasing. The killer can't just sit in one spot, as the survivors will pick away at the repair. Inevitable, it leaves a generator in a position of slowly but surely getting repairs until it's gg. There's also perks to help survivors with 3 gens such as the new perk where if you're in chase, others nearby get faster repair speeds...as well as the perk that gives bonus repair speed to 3 gens by default.
However, for killers who can get to a survivor quickly and efficiently after chasing away from a generator (such as teleports\dashes), then it's pretty much over for the survivors.
Overall though, losing out on hook states early and mid-match is a big gamble banking solely on 3 genning - but come killers naturally are extremely efficient at maintaining 3 gens. The funny thing is, those kind of killers are just as efficient as playing map-wide without having to rely on 3 gens.
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Speaking as someone who's favourite killer (Demogorgon) is a 3-gen god, i sympathise with people who do not like getting 3 genned, since it can make matches a slog depending on how hard the killer is sticking to the gens
That being said, 3 gens can be played around by simply memorising gen locations or bringing a map, even more so with a SWF group
It can suck royally, but it has quite a bit of counterplay that is both easy to learn and helps a ton with getting better at DBD
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I think we might going a bit off topic on this thread as the op intended but whatever.
So, I want to point out first that I know we have very different views on balance and just in general game issues - and don't get me wrong I do agree with you on things, it's just not very often.
RE: Mikey being fun. I'm going to be honest with you, I really dislike the majority of the killer roster and don't think most of them are fun. I think the skill ceiling on him is just way too low to keep my interest for more than two matches at a time - which is why I never played him outside dailies and why it's taken me so long to get this stupid achievement. I mained pure m1 killers at initially, and mikey is just another one that just has an instadown for a minute so it's never really grabbed me.
So, I main huntress and billy - I go for snipes and cool shots, and curves, and I play for chases. I play m2 only and it keeps me engaged because there is ALWAYS something I can learn, something I can try differently, etc. Their skill ceilings I feel like especially are high, on the way I play them so it's just more to work on. On that note - I don't really play other killers except for dailies/tomes (hag gets insta-rerolled), or if I'm in the mood for something a little different - like I've somewhat been having fun with oni and slinger, but they still aren't my favorites.
I'm going to jump around on some of your post, so I don't think I will direct quote anything, but I think I should be addressing all of your post with my thoughts on it too. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on it.
With that out of the way - I think T1 is mostly fine - typically, you shouldn't be in it that long (outside of scratched mirror), and I think those addons I mentioned being basekit should mitigate it. I'm not really opposed to t2 becoming the new t1 with undetectable - but hear me out. I like the concept, because it's sort of thematic - it's a relic of the time he came out, but I think that makes him unique - but if we do that, just make him 115% and undetectable it is just kinda.. eh. On the topic of scratched mirror - if we do make the t2 the new t1, I would honestly want how he is now to be now, because I think it being a meme build, being slow with no lunge is part of the fun - but that is just me - and if I wasn't working for that achievement, it's really the only time I think I'd want to actively play him without a daily. I'm indifferent to your vanity mirror suggestion, but my thoughts on t3 are down below.
I also just don't want him to just become ghostface with how you put it - being infinite stalk the entire match - I think it should be capped out per survivor, just you can stalk that person again after X amount of time.
On the topic of the 'nerf' - I have heard people say that, I don't personally use bamboozle or other vault speed perks on any killer - did that say it in the patch notes or is it just a bug? I haven't really looked into it, so I'm just curious
I think here is where we disagree the most - I think tombstone and tombstone piece are completely busted - removing a survivor out without hooking (outside of devour hope/working for 5 stacks) is exactly why I think he isn't getting any buffs in any place. I think they need to bin tombstone and tombstone piece, or make it only usable on one survivor the entire match and then it kicks you back to t2/you have normal t3 next time. I am mostly ok with infinite tier 3 as a concept - but - it being basekit will be a complete solo stomper and destroy low-mid skill survivors - so I just can't agree with it being completely basekit. And if they keep the iri addon, survivors can't have infinite stalk, nor should it regress, and let's say we make the three addons I propose come basekit - they should not factor in.
So - that is where my thoughts on adding 1 minute to tier 3 come in - right now, without any duration addons it's 1 minute. That's really not very long - but I think increasing it to 2 minutes makes it more of a threat and gives you a bit more time depending on how you play mikey (hook, then leave, or slug and find someone else).
*shrugs*
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People want killers to have no strategy: No slugging, no tunneling, no camping, no hit and run, no 3 gen etc etc, only survs can have, the contrary is boring and unfun
Yes, nerf killers more!
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"I really dislike the majority of the killer roster and don't think most of them are fun"
I strategically only owned about 7 killers for years so I got the daily missions I wanted while getting all the perks through the shrine.
Michael was a lot of fun for several years but he has been "left behind". If killers without a movment power did not play maps larger than 9500m² then we would have a completely different scenario. But that's not how things work - and as a result we have a lot of people who just play Nurse and Blight. The survivors hate the result but like playing on BIg maps that give them a huge advantage.
Back to MM : he's actually a lot of fun once you get the nuance down. I only ever play him with purple tombstone or infinite t3. I played him almost exclusively for about two years (same for Billy). There is a huge fear factor with Michael when you pop infinite T3 and there are still 3 gens left. With the arrival of Bamboozle he got new life but still fails hard on many maps because they are just too big and too safe. Unfortunately the 6.4 patch nerfed the ability to have a movement power vault adjustment with a vault perk speed adjustment.
"On the topic of the 'nerf' - I have heard people say that, I don't personally use bamboozle or other vault speed perks on any killer - did that say it in the patch notes or is it just a bug?"
You can read more about this absolute garbage change here : https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/356878/vault-speed-changes
It was confirmed to be a 6.4 feature. Most likely this was done to nerf Wesker but had the end result of nerfing Legion and Michael (two killers who need everything they can get). To make a long story short the strongest build with Michael I have played in a very long time was : Bam, Fire up, Corrupt, Overcharge (stalk addon+inf t3).
Fire up makes people think you have brutal. It gave you a tiny edge on vaults when you already had an advantage and it made flashlight saves way more difficult (something that also got nerfed for killers). When you had 4 or 5 stacks of FU, Bam and infinte T3 the vault speed was insanely fast. Was it broken? No. You're giving up pain res/Cob and erupt to vault just a bit faster.
The thing is tho that vaulting that fast is something nobody except a Michael main can account for with the default t3 extra lunge range. And that is the type of thing that took 5,000-10,000 hour players out of their groove. Normally if they have 5 seconds to run a loop now they only have 3.8 seconds. But now it's gone forever - along with my desire to play MM.
"So, I main huntress and billy - I go for snipes and cool shots, and curves, and I play for chases"
Most people say I am a killer main but in truth I play both sides. I am a centrist. That being said you will probably hate that I want to see all killers always need to wipe their weapon after any weapon damage (obviously not bear traps or plague vomit).
I just spent about 3M after buying the new survivor with shards - normally I try to keep my shard count around 40k. Anyway this is me and I absolutely despise the thought of playing Billy considering how good he used to be (in part because the maps were very easy for him to navigate form gen to gen with no blocking terrain between). And then there were the steering nerfs, the bump nerfs and the entire overheat mechanic. No thanks.
"I think T1 is mostly fine - typically, you shouldn't be in it that long"
He has the worst start in the entire game and is 100% reliant on using corrupt. There is no reason for him to have such a slow start unless he gets a speed boost forever late game to balance out how slow he is at the start of the game.
"I think it being a meme build, being slow with no lunge is part of the fun"
We should maybe have a survivor perk that makes you run slower too then. So you can run No Mither and "run slow" perks together. Maybe we can add a third perk too that does something like : you die on your second hook (but gain double points) to make a "hard mode".
Burger king myers is stupid. Once you know he's in slow mode it's so easy to overcome. Run to a far corner on a pallet and heal.
-"here is where we disagree the most - I think tombstone and tombstone piece are completely busted"
Nurse's ability to "blink blink hit - blink blink hit" is busted. Nurse would be a completely different killer if she had to hit, then wipe her weapon and then fatigue. Huntres too would be a lot different if M2 recovery times were the same as M1 times (and would be affected by STBFL to encourage smart play). Michael removing someone from the game does not happen quickly. Most of the time with Nurse if you are a little campy pretending not to be campy you can get someone to stage two very quickly. And there's no Green+ purple/pink addon required to do it.
-"I am mostly ok with infinite tier 3 as a concept - but - it being basekit will be a complete solo stomper"
Would still be weaker than Blight, Nurse, Wesker, Pyramid Head, Pinhead (also a solo queue stomper), etc. and therefore is a non issue.
I main Nemesis. The way I play him is very dirty because gen speeds are way too fast. Most of the people I play against are 3 man SWFs and streamers who actually have more than 10 viewers. Almost everyone says : "WHAT how did that hit?" When I whip drag around pallets. I developed a style where I look stupid and bad but it's a ruse to get people to waste pallets quickly. If they dont then I punish with Save the Best. Most of the time I don't mindgame because I don't have to (hence why I get so many people telling me I am bad when I 4k'd their swf). I use bamboozle and say : you will throw the pallet or you will get hit. People absolutely hate it. And then depending on the terrain they get zoned anyway and I insta break the pallet and hit them again. When you run Bamboozle on a killer like Nemesis it makes people scratch their head until they see it in action.
What is fantastic about Bamboozle is that much like a god pallet denies the skill of most killer -l that perk denies about 5,000 hours of survivor experience. That thing you wanted to do? Well you can't. You have to run the loop the way I decided. The only time I see bad survivors are when I play KYF or when someone drags an inappropriate level SWF to my game. I don't show them any mercy as that would not be fair to everyone else.
With all that said : I play much better people on Nemesis than I do with Michael. Both killers have trouble with the same maps except that Nemesis has an ace on "the game" and RPD. Those are usually easily 4k maps when people pick them. They are some of the only survivor favored map offerings I allow to be played against me.
Throwing out the odd game where I get infinite T3 at 5 generators Nemesis is a stronger killer than Michael even considering the the tombstone offerings. I wouldn't honestly say Nemesis is a strong killer as there are many maps that I have a near 10% win rate on vs good players ( Torment Creek is just about impossible for me to win unless the team throws hard).
Also considering the fact that GF just got mega buffed it's not fair to leave MM where he is now. GF gets infinite stalk options and can lean in/out to reset the survivors stalk on him without resetting his own progress - this is pure nonsense. Michael gets 1 minute of his power then it resets . But he is "op" if he brings one of two addons - one of which slows him down and is 100% countered by "locker tech" (kek).
It would not really be fair to give GF nerfs as he still isn't a very good killer. ( maybe a survivor staring at him should reduce their stalk progress faster than it is gained to deny your ability to "99" as well force better counterplay with staring contests). It might also be fair if GF had his stalk decay on a timer and you needed to use an addon to make it not decay (at least a purple).
-"I also just don't want him to just become ghostface with how you put it - being infinite stalk the entire match"
I was definitely not asking for that. But when you look at MM's start and compare that to GF it's really not fair to keep GF as he is and MM as he is right now.
If basekit infinite T3 is too much we could also do the other thing I thought about: Let him break pallets with a swing when he is in T3. Create a quick animation for it and give it a "nemesis" timed pallet break time. Then the map becomes a race against time to finish the gens before he hits infinite t3 (because why wouldn't you use that addon since you feel he should lose the purple tombstone).
I would be totally ok with the tombstone getting a complete rework. Years ago I suggested a perk for killer but I will pitch it again here. Call it whatever - Torment of the Entity : the obsession plays the trial injured with the broken status. You could maybe make it work so that the purple tombstone now just makes the obsession has that effect the entire game. The end result is the same : you're going to die much faster. The way we get to that result is different and would force a different play style to counter. For the pink tombstone you force the obsession to start injured and broken. Anyone you injure with your power active becomes broken for the rest of the match. Let the immersion begin. The flavor text could read something like : merely seeing the evil flow through *him* puts a heavy weight on your soul.
Note: My perk idea would also be a good rework idea for Dying Light. It would be an instant killer favorite. Also since it's locked behind a DLC paywall it's fine to make it pay to win.
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It's very simple. It's an unhealthy route to take the game. Nobody wants to play games which take 40 minutes and have little interaction.
Ultimately the game will just lose player base which is pointless.
It's always been very clear that BHVR actually needs to force healthy playstyles not just try to encourage them.
Extra gen time was increased in the hope it slows the game down and therefore encourage different perk use, more time to chase etc. Instead players just camp more.
If you just give players a different option the majority still just pick the easiest one to win, regardless of fun or anything else, hence we arrive at many players just camping the 3 gen at the start even if it means back and forth for 30 minutes doing effectively nothing.
Again, no argument on whether it's valid or allowed, that's a no brained, but it is certainly poor design.
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In most cases, 3 gens can be broken. I just ran into a Knight running Eruption/CoB/Overcharge/NWTH on the MacMillan map with the little mine shaft where basement spawns (dont remember the actual name). He had 3 gens at that shaft with basement, pushed everyone to the other end, then spammed his guards at the chokepoint so nobody could get through. 45 minutes later, the match ends at 1 gen left because everyone gave up and died. He NEVER moved off of it and even working together, none of those gens ever got past 10%. How is that a valid strategy and NOT considered taking the game hostage?
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Wrong
9:10 - listen on and try again <3
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3 gens are a byproduct of bad map design and very unbalanced objective progress for both sides.
both sides have the right to complain about 3 gens. Killers need them and survivors hate them.
Better Map design and Balance is the only solution.
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