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A reason why eruption is a problem (and addressing common reasons to why people say it's not).
I feel like eruption has become the big name on the block and while most people can seem to agree that it's too strong, they're people who still believe it isn't that bad or believe it's a problem but maybe not for the right reasons.
The first thing people talk about with eruption is balance. Kicking a gen with this perk marks it and when a survivor goes down the gen loses % and any survivors on it are incapacitated for a duration. This % and debuff translate to roughly 40 of gen time if one survivor is hit. This is probably the most gen time a single perk can get you in one action of kicking a gen. This is in theory balanced out by needing to then down the survivor but in practice, this isn't a significant downside for any killer with a chase power or killers who use other perks such as Call of Brine or Overcharge to help defend the gen to buy them time. The other issue is this assumes you hit one gen or only one survivor, you can go around kicking every gen on the map if you desired and although that is unreasonable it isn't unreasonable to say that this perk will at multiple points hit multiple gens in one down. This shear amount of gen time it buys you is just too much but this may lead to some counter-arguments to why it's balanced:
1, You can dodge the debuff: In theory yes you could however if you weren't on the gens the killer wants to defend chances are the killer doesn't need that extra gen time as much. A coordinated team on comms could try to convey when they may go down but this balance idea assumes that every team is coordinating as much as possible on third-party software. Teams who don't have to try and guess when the teammate will go down however this basically requires them to get off the gen any time a teammate is injured which results in a similar amount of time lost anyway. Considering this is a perk that requires you to kick gen, a core game mechanic, and requires this level of counterplay to even try and minimise the value of it seems like an unfair trade-off. Obviously, the perk should get value but even trying to play around the perk for most players gets it as much value as if they didn't and if they do successfully play around it you still get the % lost which isn't insignificant.
2, Why are you complaining about eruption when survivors have _____ or, why talk about eruption when ____ exists in the game: surprisingly me talking about eruption doesn't mean that I think everything else is perfect, I'm talking about eruption because I think it's the most interesting issue to talk about as the perk is very unique and has a lot going on. A couple of common ones like this I hear are 1) gen speed bonuses: if survivors are doing gens in 40 seconds with prove and bnps chances are you wouldn't have been able to kick the gen anyway so I don't see how this helps combat that here and 2) dead hard: dead hard is silly and although I wouldn't say it's as powerful as eruption it has it's own problems, me talking about eruption shouldn't immediately imply otherwise. Any other arguments about eruption that follow these lines should be treated as either; we're not talking about that right now we're talking about eruption or, I agree but I still think eruption is a problem. If every suggestion for a nerf is met with "only if we nerf this first" we'll have an infinite loop of nothing being nerfed or the devs working on a single patch which has to fix every issue simultaneously which they obviously won't have the time for with going for a long period without actually fixing anything. Better to fix some issues and have less than fix none at all.
The other issue I believe exists with eruption is it leads to unfun gameplay to play against. As mentioned previously having to constantly guess when your teammate goes down is basically lucked-based and infuriating. If you don't you have been incapacitated for 25 seconds, which means you can't do anything. The only thing you can do with this debuff is run around, interact with chase objects and get unhooks but as the killer has just downed someone chances are no one is currently on a hook and you won't be getting chased as you teammate is getting hooked so you basically can't do anything for 25 seconds. I should have to explain why not being able to play the video game for 25 is not fun, if I wished to not play the video game I wouldn't have loaded it up. The other incapacitated effects in the game are tied to killer powers, both twins' and cenobites' powers apply this but they do it notably differently. The effects last indefinitely until an action is performed meaning the survivors have agency in the duration and feel like they can do something to get rid of this debuff, secondly the killer actively wants to engage with these survivors as with the twins they're injured and the killer knows the survivor's location while with cenobite the survivor has the box and the killer gains a large benefit from catching them. This means even if the survivor can't do anything for a long time they're still likely to be engaging with the killer or doing it by choice. With eruption, the killer knows they're not doing gens for 25 seconds which is more than enough time to hook the downed survivor and go to the gen they were on to defend so the killer is encouraged to let the survivor sit there and do nothing for 25 seconds.
The other unfun part of this is the meta it's created. When combined with other gen-kicking perks the killer begins to gain more value from kicking gens than chasing survivors. This is fine usually as most gen-kicking perks have cooldowns or deactivate when kicking a gen meaning the killer is forced to chase survivors after kicking the gen but not these perks. This means if kicking the next gen will take less time than getting a hit on a survivor you will do it and leads to matches where killers kick half the gens on the map before starting a chase. This is unfun as it drags matches out without increasing the amount of player vs player engagement, when I play the hit horror PVP game dead by daylight I play because I want to engage with other players in a horror environment so if a strategy means that's not happening and instead I'm stunned for long durations with the other side actively not engaging with me or my team it is understandably not fun. Some common counter-arguments for this are
3, I care about balance not fun: games are designed to be fun, if something makes the game unfun that's a problem. Balance is an issue in video games because unbalanced mechanics leads to unfun and infuriating gameplay and ultimately fun is still what you're designing around if you care about balance. We may just have different definitions of fun which I can understand, but I hope my argument can show why many people do find this unfun in a way that is a problem.
4, Surely camping and tunnelling as strategies people intend to do from the start are also unfun to play against and at least this isn't that: to start with go back to question 2 people can believe there exists more than one issue at a time. All these strategies have the same issue of the killer actively not engaging with most of the team so that doesn't mean that this is more fun just because it's different. On a more personal level, at least with tunnelling or camping matches are over quickly due to killers not spreading pressure or defending gens or survivors dying from failing to be altruistic instead of being dragged out for 20+ minutes so I think I would rather camping or tunnelling because those games tend to be over quickly. I should point out briefly that yes survivors can do things that are commonly agreed upon to be unfun, see common question 2.
5, if the strategy of gen kicking uses multiple perks why bring up eruption in particular: eruption is notably the most powerful perk on these builds and is the least fun to play against individually. I do believe it could be healthy to limit how much you can use similar perks like Call of Brine or Overcharge in a given period of time but that's a different discussion.
Before I write a TLDR there are two other counter-arguments that should be brought up that appear commonly but didn't fit elsewhere:
6, You're obviously just a survivor main who wants the killer to be weak/have an easy time: this is a bad argument on 3 bases. Firstly, you have no way of proving that, killers can think killer perks are too strong and vice versa. Secondly, if my argument is bad and based on my own emotions without good reasoning then tackle the reasoning not me as a person. Thirdly, if I was a survivor main who plays against this a lot then I should know a lot about playing against this perk. Given a large portion of my argument is that the perk leads to gameplay which is unfun to play against being a survivor main who plays against this a lot should in theory mean my argument is based on experience not theory.
7, well if it's a problem what's the solution: ######### if I know I'm not a game designer. Game design is obviously something that interests me given I've written this much about it however being able to diagnose something as a problem and treating that problem are different. If people would solve problems just by seeing that they were there and diagnosing the symptoms we wouldn't have people whose jobs are to solve these difficult and complex issues.
I also want to make it clear that I do not want to shame people who use this perk or play like this. You play the game how it is not how you want it to be because the game you want does not currently exist yet and likely never will. If you want to use this because it's effective and don't care for survivor fun in your matches then fine do that but please separate that from concepts of game balance and design.
TLDR: The perk has very good numbers, trying to counter these numbers is ineffective and random outside third-party software and the perk is still good when countered. People can believe multiple things are problems while talking about just one. Incaptasiated without alternate objectives or reasons for the killer to engage with the survivor leads to people just not playing the game for a fixed amount of time and 20+ minute matches where one side doesn't actively engage with the other side isn't fun to play against. I'm not a game designer I don't have a proposed solution but people can still recognise this as a problem and try and make the devs aware of that.
Comments
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I am going with option #6.
For Eruption to even work so many things have to come together:
- IF I kick a gen
- IF someone returns to that gen
- IF someone is working on WHILE I hook someone else
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My main gripe with Eruption in it's current state is it is yet another perk that absolutely shits on solo queue survivors, and does virtually nothing to SWFs on comms. As if solo queue isn't miserable enough, this gen kick build just makes it seemingly unwinnable. You lose so much time while erupted, while people on comms just say "about to go down" and everyone hops off the gens until they're down.
Not sure about other people, but to me the Ruin/Undying meta seems fun compared to this.
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I'm a killer main and i hate to run Eruption but i am forced to run Eruption. I'd really would love to try out different builds and perks but guess what ? I like to win ( what a crime ) and if i want to win, i have to use those perks that have the strong impact in the game, basically slowdown/regression perk and i truly hate them because there is no fun to kick a gen over and over and over
Eruption is not the problem, the problem is the status of the game. Even If eruption is removed from the game, killers will run CoB, OC and other regression perks and tunnel/camp even more in a minute and nothing will change as long the game don't change
As a community we should ask to change those aspect of the game that ruin the players experiences for both killer and survivor, not just "nerf this and this" but provide a better gameplay
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If "unfun to play against" is being considered a serious argument I have a large Santa Clause style scroll of things I wanted removed from the game....
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I would like to point out that although it may seem like an emotional appeal I did provide reasons as to why I think it's unfun and works against why people would load into a PVP game, namely that it encourages players to interact with the environment more than it does other players leading to less player vs player engagement despite making matches take longer.
As stated before, never said otherwise. I chose I talk about eruption because I think it's a more interesting issue to talk about than "the objective is done too fast" or "numbers too big".
I disagree with the sentiment that killers have to play like this to win, but if you're talking about your own experience then I can't argue otherwise. Personally, I find I can win regularly with killer without resorting to such ideas but as stated if you need to or want to play like this to win I have no intent on shaming you for it you're using the tools at your disposal. Again I do think there are none eruption issues in the game and I did mention that overcharge and call of brine probably also need cooldowns to prevent them from being used like they're currently. On a personal level tunnelling, camping and these gen-kicking builds all encourage you to not interact with most survivors on the team which is what I think is the most unfun part about these strategies; I singled out eruption in particular because I believe it has issues beyond being used in a gen kicking build. I would argue even in a game where everything else is more balanced/fair and people don't have to use the best options eruption still wouldn't be unhealthy for the game.
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Killer mains say eruption is fine same way survivor mains claimed old DH was fine,,non of them were fine ,,DH was rightfully nerfed and so is gettin eruption down the line,,,i give it until next ptb,,everyone is moaning about eruption as they should
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The problem isn't simply that it's an unfun perk, it's that the perk removes a player from normal gameplay. It's essentially a stun, or most games call it a 'silence' effect, where you can't do much more than move around with your character.
Most perks/effects in the game that remove a player from gameplay have either a warning/telegraph, or a form of counterplay. Sometimes both.
The biggest form of counterplay is interaction with the opposing team. So, being removed from play by being hooked or slugged, for example, has counterplay of looping and directly interacting with the killer. You can use mind games, players make mistakes, etc.
There are exactly two perks in the game that remove a player from normal gameplay, have no warning or telegraph, and do not involve direct interaction with another player. These perks are Blast Mine and Eruption.
Blast Mine must be earned, can only apply to one generator at a time, and expires after 60 seconds regardless of if it triggered. It's also generally considered one of the 'fairer' perks in the game because it has all of these restrictions.
Eruption, on the other hand, has no activation requirement (like pop with hooking a survivor), can be applied to any number of gens at the same time, and never expires. Even the cooldown isn't limiting because it's barely longer than the stun at 30 seconds, and triggers on down, not on kick. The perk is effectively always available to use.
Eruption needs a restriction to when it can be used at minimum, or reworked entirely. Maybe both.
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I'd say the difference is much simpler. Defending gens is ultimately a secondary objective that you don't have to do and if you do get punished by blast mine you suffer a 5-second stun. Survivors' primary object is generators and if you get punished by eruption, for doing the thing you have to do, you suffer from a 25-second stun. Obviously killer perks need to be stronger, but this isn't about balance games shouldn't have 25-second stuns because people want to play the game.
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Okay.
Let's go point by point.
- This game cannot be balanced around solo players. In an SWF, it's not hard to say 'let go'. The reason this game has to be balanced around SWF is because survivors can choose to play solo or in a team, and killers have no choice - your next game could be against a 4man.
- No, saying that killers need muscular regression perks because of how fast gens can potentially move now is a perfectly valid statement. Because it's true. If the incap is really the complaint here, then - as a lot of folks have suggested - just make it a gen block. But you and I both know that this won't even slow the QQ train down. Also - you do realize that, to get Eruption off, the killer actually needs to chase and down someone, right? I'd say that most folks care less about 'fun' than about 'winning'. Because, for most folks, winning is fun.
- 'Fun' is subjective. See above. It's all good and well to say 'well, killers should play in x way because that's more fun to me' - but A. that ignores what is fun for the killer and B. is not the reality on the ground. Balance does not occur in a vacuum.
- Irrelevant. Moving on.
- Anyone using Overcharge is playing the game wrong. This perk sucks, no matter how you slice it - and is only really useful in skillcheck builds. It takes 12 seconds to reach regular regression rates.
- Lazy strawman. Moving on.
- The issue isn't design here, really. It's pure psychology. You can follow the complaint train (comtrain?) about literally whatever the killer meta is at any point in time, right from the start. For the longest time it was Ruin. Then Ruin+Undying. Then still Ruin+Undying, after it got nerfed. Then it was PR+DMS. Then 6.1.0 happened and it was Overcharge. Then Thana. Then STBFL. Then PR+DMS again. Now it's Eruption. In most of these cases, the complaining led to these perks being nerfed into near uselessness. There are 4 survivors to every killer per match, meaning four more people to get salty and blame the killer/playstyle/perks/teammates for their loss rather than saying 'well, I made mistakes'.
Eruption will probably get Thana'd before too long. Then we'll be back to complaining about PR+DMS or STBFL until that gets gutted. And on and on we go.
Eruption...not sure what you mean by 'numbers'. It's strong if you get hit by it, but you can take steps to avoid this. You can't just talk about one thing in this game, because balance doesn't work like that. It's all well and good to say 'well, killers being crap doesn't bother me if I'm having fun' - but that's incredibly selfish.
The reason you see Eruption, CoB and/or PR so much is because...what else are killers going to run? Ruin and Thana aren't worth using anymore. Surge and Penti are unreliable. Overcharge and Oppression are terrible. Info perks get redundant and there aren't many universally good lethality perks. Because of how fast gens can potentially move - killers need to go in prepared for it.
The solution is to take some agency and find an SWF - which is super easy to do, by the way, they're always popping on the DbD Discord. Or run an aura reading perk and use some gamesense to try and let go in time.
As others have suggested - make it a 40 second gen block, to compensate for the lost regression.
Do you think that will end the moaning? (Spoiler: not a chance).
It's not the incap. It's that this perk requires survivors to be a bit proactive, apply a bit of gamesense and let go for a few seconds.
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I must be unplugged from the killer main hive mind because I absolutely feel eruption deserves a nerf.
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A nerf? No. Not a chance.
Rework it so that people stop moaning about the incap? Sure. Which is why I suggested a 40 second gen block.
Also - I thought I remembered you, so out of curiosity, I took a peek at your other threads. Are you sure you're a killer main?
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Yeah, I play mostly killer (70%?) and will always advocate for them. The majority of the player base are survivors so killers need folks willing to have voices that don't stoop to us vs. Them rhetoric.
I also just happen to think killers are in a good spot right now outside of lopsided maps. There are also many many small buffs you could also give underperforming killers such as: trapper starting with traps, neutering overheat, lower static blast cooldown, clown shared bottles etc etc.
Looking at my recent posts I'm defending tunneling and explaining counterplay to perk combos survivors don't like. Not seeing survivor bias there.
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A 40 second gen block is still ridiculous imo. Aside from corrupt intervention (2 mins), the only other perk that blocks gens that long is grim embrace (40s), and that only triggers once per game. The other gen block perks are DMS, Deadlock, and repressed alliance at 30 seconds, and all of those have restrictions. DMS is limited duration and only after a hook, dead lock can only block one gen, and repressed must be earned and only affects one gen. Thrilling tremors is at most 15 or so seconds.
Eruption with this effect is essentially just a grim embrace on every down, if no actual restrictions are added to the perk. And even if it isn't 'every gen' (it could be), it'll at least be 'every essential gen'.
I'd much rather have survivors be affected by an 'Erupted' debuff for 30 seconds, that reduces gen repair speed by 50% for 30 seconds and nothing else. Even if survivors stay on the gen after being debuffed, it'll take 18 seconds to break even with the 10% initial hit, and give slowdown beyond that. Give survivors a choice to work on the gen at the speed of smell or go do literally anything else at full speed.
It's not 'letting go for a few seconds' tho, that's the problem. Even if I grant that 'knowing someone is in chase' is game sense in every possible situation, it could be you're letting go for a few seconds or two minutes. You have zero idea how long that chase will last unless you have a clear line of sight to watch it happening, or you're on comms. Even gen tapping is just down to lucky timing unless you have eyes on the killer.
And until they add the 'chase indicator' for everyone, you may not have any idea that the injured, non-obsession survivor is in danger across the map. There's no amount of 'game sense' that overcomes that. Luck could, and perks that rely on lucky timing to show you auras. Or your friend on discord.
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Almost every solo game I've played where the killer has Eruption has ended in a stalemate on the last gen. No matter where they are, it could be the best possible 3 gen set up for survivors. It's usually a Knight or a high mobility killer, who kicks every gen, chases a survivor away from gens, and pressures until they get a down, inevitably getting at least one Eruption debuff, and repeat. Unless you have four survivors coordinating well it's almost impossible to keep up with the regression and stay alive.
Even if you have the best possible scenario of three survivors each one a gen each, and one being chased, That survivor get's downed, triggering 40 seconds of equivalent regression. A hook is made and a rescue required, heal up time, eventually tap the gens, but the killer does their patrol and kicks each gen again, and repeat.
Most recent game was just now. Mothers Dwelling, gens miles away from each other. Three survivors alive, one gen remaining. We never got a single gen to more than about 50% despite running the killer all the way around the map, with some chases lasting 30-40 seconds. We're pre-running and holding W, trying to buy tie for team mates, but you're still stutter-repairing because you don't know when the down is coming, and it always comes when you're touching the gen, even if it's for a split second.
This btw was almost a like-for-like repeat of a previous Knight+Eruption game on RPD, which itself was exactly the same as Knight+Eruption on Gideon. I might end up just unaliving myself every time I see the Knight from now on.
"The game shouldn't be balanced around solo players."
No, the game itself has to be viable against a SWF. But you don't design perks or mechanics that inadvertently affect solo survivors more than they affect SWF. Eruption is a mediocre perk against SWF that inflicts 10% (9s) regression per gen (so why would you run it?) but it's absolutely oppressive against solos where it can inflict the equivalent regression of 40s of repair (44% of a gen!) or more if survivors are stuttering or refusing to repair in anticipation (oh that's why).
As a killer, I refuse to run Eruption for this very reason. And I consider any killers who do use it as cheap as facecamping Bubbas, they're clearly only looking to stomp all over solo survivors. Ruin Undying was better (and fairer) than this.
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The idea that some of these "common counter-arguments" are strawman arguments is fair but that's kinda the point. They're not there to shut down all further discussion but some weaker arguments that I felt were surrounding this discussion but I respect the fact that you are willing the debate that these are weak.
Maybe starting with balance points was a bad idea because my main point was the psychology/feeling of playing against. As stated in my other comments a 25-second stun isn't fun for anyone playing against it due to not being able to do anything for so long and receiving it for doing the thing the game tells you to do. If people didn't want to play the game they wouldn't have loaded it up so why would anyone enjoy not being able to play or 25 seconds? Furthermore interacting with the environment (such as kicking gens) is nice as it leads to interesting decisions making with the risk of lowering player interaction, however when you have enough perks to make that decision irrelevant and default overwhelming to yes you remove the fun part while having matches where the killer would rather interact with the environment than survivors. If survivors wanted to not interact with other players they wouldn't have loaded a PVP game.
I agree that having it block gens instead of incap would be a good idea as the survivor could still do secondary objectives such as healing or chests then and feel like they have more agency in what they do in those 25 seconds instead of sitting around.
As for balance, 10% as contingency is still good and forcing the survivor to constantly get off the gen is even more on top. I will agree that against very coordinated survivors on full coms playing as hard as they can to win it's often 10% but that is a very small minority compared to most players where the perk consistently gets too much value as it will hit people on gens at least somewhat regularly.
Finally, it's not fair to say that people need to be playing on discord to enjoy this game. If I wanted to play a game while on voice chat with strangers, I would have played a game that advertises that.
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Yeah, I don't really want to ad-hom here, but that's not what I'm seeing from you - at all.
If those arguments are so self-evidently weak, then you can just ignore them. There are a ton of folks on these forums, so you can always find someone saying some silly thing - and when you post it as if that was the common opinion of killers, it actually weakens your own argument.
Here's the other side of the perk equation. You don't know, as a killer, if you're facing a bunch of solos with meh perks or a monster SWF with PTS/Hyp/Stakeout, and you won't know until you've lost 4 gens in 3 minutes. So...yeah, about all you can do is try to buy time to figure it out.
Again - if the incap is really the problem here, then make it a slightly longer gen block (to compensate for the lost regression time)...but from what I'm seeing, complaining about the incap is really just a smokescreen for ye olde 'whatever the current killer meta is is unfun because I lost to it' nonsense.
It doesn't matter if it's a minority (I would hesitate to call it small, I think the last time we got stats, 50% of survivors play in groups of some size). It's the potential that you could be facing that group in your next game that makes killers run deep regression and come in firing.
I think that's entirely fair, actually. 'Fun' is subjective. I have fun in solo queue, but I realize that it's sub-optimal and will always be sub-optimal, because if SWF exists, then that is what is needed to be balanced around. Otherwise, it's massively unfair to killers. You'd basically be saying 'well, if you get an SWF, you might as well just take a loss at the selection screen'. So much for interactivity.
Consider what Eruption takes to trigger, and that it can be countered. 40 seconds is...frankly, the bare minimum you'd need unless your goal is just to Thana the perk (or maybe 'Ruin' the perk would be better). Comparing perks to other perks in a vacuum is pointless, because it's usually the synergy that makes it worth running.
That 'Erupted' effect would be doing this - you'd just see the perk stop being used, because now you've got an unreliable perk that needs kicking. A lot of genspeed comes from hitting Greats (which is why Hyperfocus/Stakeout is so brutal to face).
I'm going off the 'chase indicator' because...duh? We'll probably have that in less than a week. If I'm playing solo queue, I run Empathy (some folks like Bond) - and with that, I'd say that I can reliably predict when to let go more than half the time. And I'm not anything close to a good survivor.
You're completely ignoring that survivors have agency here. Take note of which gens are kicked. If someone's being chased, anticipate the down. If you waste a few seconds, you're still ahead of the game.
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Here's a thing:
I want Eruption changed, not in the way you do but I do want it changed. I don't want a new perk sold in its place. I would like some new perks sold that synergize with it.
I need a gen regression perk that works consistently against a well organized SWF. Some people suggested locking gens, maybe it locks each gen that was kicked for 10 seconds on each down, or something. What I just said might be too weak or OP I'm not sure, and I won't know until it gets tested. And I won't be interested in any test until someone aside from myself accepts the problem.
Beating solo que players isn't usually difficult, and Eruption doesn't work well when people are paying attention AND attentive to team mate prompts(Like a normal SWF would be). But its pretty much the only perk you have in place that can assist you toward the end of a match, when gens have gone quickly and the SWF has forced hook rotation(or you've allowed them to manipulate it). With Eruption sometimes you can tire them out and they will make a mistake, this will get the gen person(s) off the gen and allow you to pursue a second down and hook(because you already had 1 that triggered eruption). This is what I want Eruption to solve, and it currently doesn't do that, because as has been said by much better survivors than myself, let go of the generator and walking toward the unhook site counters it.
In actual play you can dodge the debuff. I dodge the debuff with bond and looking at the screen of the player next to me, and occasionally asking "W T F is going on that I can't see from here, with my screen filled with gen". From the other side, stopping to kick a gen means the player on that gen makes it to the next tile. This slows a chase down to the point where its usually not worth starting.
It is not better to fix some issues and ignore others if you make game play goals impossible for some players. I don't think this should ever be done. I think this legitimately leads to people silently leaving. Killers need a way to compete with SWF at their highest level, this solution needs to keep in mind that it is 4 brains against 1. And expecting the 1 to be a genius and limiting them to 3-4 of the available killers, while the opposing 4 can be drunken, ********, and running 3 games at once is not acceptable.
Yah, its not fun. If you are having fun holding the gen repair button down, Eruption will wreck that. If Eruption wrecks your PvGenerator time you could rush at the killer and start t-bag. This might be fun and PvP.
I agree with you on the next one. I'd rather not kick generators, the animation is silly. I'd rather chase survivors. If all generators would lock for 10 seconds or more each time I hit a survivor I think that would be a great place to start testing from.
The people I wind up playing against seem to love camping and tunneling. I know that sounds insane(to some) but, its true. At any time the SWF I'm forced to face can leave the hook area, do gens or just walk out the exit gate. They, 99% of the time refuse to do this. They will rush the killer, body block the killer, grab dance the hook with the killer, ANYTHING except leave/expedite the leaving process. They basically force you to camp by cornering the killer into a chase around the hook. They force a tunnel via blocking on the unhook OR making it impossible to tell who just got unhooked. This is intentional, and is fully under their control. Solo players are playing a different game, they clearly don't want this stuff, but(when playing a killer) I'm not the one laying out or perpetuating how the end game is played.
I play survivor, I get mad at myself when I get hit with Eruption 2+ times in a match. I personally prefer to think I'm the idiot when it happens. Not the killer, or the game tools.
The solution is to understand the problem. The solution is to test some new solutions. The solution is not to listen to people crying on the forum. If its about survivors not having fun, maybe give them a new perk that says "...While incapacitated, you run 10% faster...". If its about Eruption not doing its intended job, maybe add a scourge hook perk that "... When hooking a survivor, all generators are locked for 20 seconds." And test that stuff.
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It matters less to me what the perk does and more that it needs restrictions to when it can be used. Make it usable once after a hook, make the cooldown apply on kick instead of down. There are options other than being effectively always active.
I prefer alternatives to gen blocking because that can make the perk even stronger in some scenarios, depending on how it's implemented. A DMS style block (only if the survivor is 'hit') isn't nearly as bad as a deadlock style (forces you off the gen) but it's still not a great solution imo.
I'm also not sure why this one perk specifically needs to be locked in at 40+ seconds of slowdown. No other perk provides nearly that much value unless the gen is left to regress freely by survivors. It already provides more regression than Jolt (with infinite range), and that's if no one gets 'hit' by it. Or maybe you're trying to say that Jolt, pop, pain res, etc should all be at least 30% to compete with the 40+ seconds of slowdown on a single perk slot? Either way, Eruption is an outlier.
And since it came up, deal with toolboxes, BNP, and make Hyperfocus not work when using a toolbox. Multiple things can be broken at the same time.
As of right now, anytime after the start of the game, you have to assume that every gen has Eruption. Even a gen at zero when I get there isn't necessarily safe. It's like playing around pain res, except it's a random duration every time someone becomes injured. Doable, but less consistent and far, far more reliant on luck. And god forbid you get a situation where someone gets grabbed while healthy, there's no amount of 'skill' that will predict that.
Sure, it'll be easier with the chase indicator when it's live. That hasn't been an option for the past six months, so why would I talk about it like that's a tool I have readily available now? Will it help? Sure. Does that change my opinion that I think Eruption is terrible perk design? No. The indicator will be useful, but Eruption still needs to have some restriction to when it's usable.
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The only problem with Eruption is the Incapacitated. Change it to blocking the gen on a down. Now it effects solo and swf equally. Technically still a nerf, but nothing too major and now the "unfun" component is removed. Easy.
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I agree that it can feel bad to get hit and that looking for counterplay is nice, but the counterplay isn't there. Counterplay is something you can reliably do to mitigate the effectiveness of something but without additional information, there is no reliable way to know when the teammate will go down meaning that dodging it and getting value from trying to dodge it is largely random. If you let go all the time then you can let go for too long but beyond that, it's a complete gamble as to when to let go meaning it's not even reliable at mitigating value or being worth your time. Using comms or bringing the right perk isn't counterplay because knowing the killer will have eruption isn't reliable and is basically luck too.
Other strong perks have limited value like deadlock and corrupt and as such are predictable and reliable rather than giving a lot of value or have counterplay to make up for getting good value. Pain res + dms showing you the hook happening before the effects happen, call of brine not giving info when you hit great skill checks, hexes can be cleansed or discordance having an obvious trigger to play around. You may not know if the killer has perks like call of brine of discordance but if you are able to figure these things out you can play around them, to play around eruption you need to not play the game otherwise you may get hit and not be able to play the game, to mitigate the perk you need to do the exact thing that would happen if you weren't to play around it.
Powerful effects like eruption should have counterplay to mitigate value, counterplay should be reliable and available without having to know if the perk is in the next match before joining it. Rushing the killer when incapacitated doesn't matter in this context because most times they're hooking a teammate, also throwing the game shouldn't be the solution to being forced to not play it. A perk that makes incapacitated survivors faster wouldn't fix either of these issues and encourages the killer even to not interact with the survivors not playing the game.
The idea of blocking instead of incapacitated sounds good in my opinion because it allows survivors to do side objectives and play the game, the exact numbers of this are less relevant than the effect but it's a good idea. A scourge hook that blocks gens could be fun but all gens might get a bit tedious even if it's a short duration and being a slowdown perk with the same trigger as pain res sounds a bit redundant. Perhaps having the effect last if someone is left on the hook for too long or happens on uhook?
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Sure. Let me explain.
- It already has restrictions. It requires a kick, and then a down before that gen is done, and for the people working on the gen not to let go.
- 40 seconds...think of it this way. With the conditions above, and the loss of regression time, it's a high risk/high reward perk that is about on par with the original Eruption in terms of power, but without the incap.
- This is just sort of proving what I'm saying. People say that it's the incap that's the problem, and just to rework it but not nerf it. So we suggest ways to rework it but not nerf it. And then exactly what I predicted would happen happens, and it immediately goes from 'well no, we actually meant we want this perk gone so nerf it'.
- How is it an outlier?
- Yes, multiple things can be overpowered. But when one of these things is being used to counter those other things, then nerfing one makes those things even worse. And...yeah, let's get real here. BHVR isn't going to touch survivor perks or items because A. If they were, they'd have done it already, B. They've always been very reluctant to nerf survivor perks unless those perks are literally breaking the game (and even then, cough OoO) and C. Survivors have been complaining relentlessly since 6.1.0.
- Then we make it work off hooking, buff the numbers accordingly - and you'll be right back then demanding a nerf. Because, again, this is how it always goes. As you've proven here.
- Sigh, if we're really going to go back in time and complain about things being a certain way...I've got 6 years of killer suffering to go through, so pull up a chair.
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It has counterplay, there are things you can decide to do once you know Eruption is being used. You don't want to do those things. This is a well designed perk in that sense, it forces you to make uncomfortable choices. I appreciate that it seems suboptimal to come off a gen and wait when you feel a survivor might go down. That is one of the good parts of Eruption, it can force an intelligent survivor to make a bad decision.
Players do generators, players keep the killer busy. If you get kicked off a gen by Eruption, ALL IS NOT LOST. You can do the other thing survivors do. If you are not good at the other thing, that is not Eruption's fault, it is not the killer's fault. You can take that moment to be thankful for an opportunity to learn about tiles, pallets, and how to run them.
You can also set up the unhook during your incapacitation
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this post REALLY brought a lot of killer players out of their cave because they need to die on this hill together ☺️ i don't really care if eruption is nerfed or not but it is kinda funny how hard people defend this perk (almost like they might need it to win cough cough)
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If they nerf Eruption, I hope they nerf that Haddie perk, Residual Manifest, which can blind a killer for up to 30 seconds.
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eruption is a problem only if survivors aren't good in chases or at hiding... it's virtually useless in high mmr because:
1 you DON'T HAVE THE TIME to kick gens, your only way to get a good amount of pressure is through the chases (and this include slugging, tunneling and sometimes camping) that you must end quickly as you can and force hook state whenever you can (you see that a survivor is going to the 2nd state, at this point you must camp in order to get one of their health state for free and get rid of that survivor asap)
2 a survivor DECENT at looping will keep you busy for at least an entire minute (even more if he has dead hard) so survivors have enough time to complete a generator even before this perk will activate
this is why certain people (myself included) don't even consider worth it to take... average players can still be beaten even without a full gen regression build, but aganist strong teams few perks are really viable (and most gen regression perks are useless aganist those groups). Eruption may be unfun to go aganist (i'm a solo player), but there are things A LOT MORE CONCERNING right now than this perk imo
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