CoH get nerfed ?
in English there is only talk of eruption but not CoH, in German it called "Schmeis der Schmeilung"
CoH in German = Kreis der Heilung
it may actually just be CoH, but the question is, WHAT BHVR?? do you want to kill the perk after it has already been nerfed twice ? rly??
English version will be: it rhymes with Shmeruption and Shmircal of Shmealing
Comments
-
Im fine with them delete Coh if they bring back Selfcare, Botany, Pharmacy; and buff Solidarity, Reactive healing, Resurgence prevent Haemorrhage effect.
16 -
I still don't really understand why they nerfed self-care so hard lol, but I don't want them to revert to botany. I love new botany. It's so much faster. Though I guess to give it like a 25% efficiency boost instead of making it 50% less efficiency.
0 -
Oooh secret German lore.
Circle of Healing could do with a small nerf, it's still really common and shuts down certain killers and playstyles too easily but I hope they don't nuke it into the ground.
3 -
What then remains of healing possibilities? what does bhvr want to achieve? that you heal each other? bhvr can show me how to be healed up in the solo q without wasting a lot of time, as with almost all other perks, this is too strong in the SWF and the solo q needs it (it will be displayed to you, you can use it without communication heal up)
meanwhile in the swf "come on shack let's heal there" problem solved for swf, solo q: "a heal beg i'm dying of a heal, healll", selfcare got nerfed because it was too strong ? NO! Wasn't it because it was "meta", yes of course because it was one of the few ways to heal yourself up without the help of others, it makes bhvr :D I watch it nicely from afar as the solo q gets even worse (when the heal options will be even less) while I deleted dbd because your great matchmaking works so well that I will match with bot and when I play swf almost every killer hits the wall and I get so bored because it's not a challenge :DD
4 -
If the stomping of boons was baseline, CoH would have been fine.
The issue was not the healing, it was that it was infinite.
10 -
The ability for survivors to reliably heal themselves at a reasonable speed is incredibly strong. That's why Medkits are the strongest item survivors can bring, and why Self-Care EVEN NOW is still decently popular, and that isn't even a reasonable speed.
If Circle of Healing only sped up the heal speed when you heal others, even if it was back at 100% like at release, it would be used far, far less. So long as the perk allows people to just run to the boon and heal themselves whenever they want, they'll need to make the self-heal slow.
8 -
Healing takes 16sec.
Old Botany takes 12sec. New Botany takes 10.5sec. That 17% buff which sounds like a huge number, only save 1.5sec per healing compared to old one. With the downside that getting a Brown medkit in chest cant heal yourself.
- If I cant heal myself with Medkit, so I should give Medkit to teammate. If I give Medkit to teammate, why should I use Botany to begin with.
The same situation with Pharmacy.
- Im unhooked, should I stay under hook and let my teammate heal me for 16sec. Or I spend 30sec running around being injured to find chest, 10sec open chest to get Green medkit just to save 5.5sec healing?
4 -
When people bring Botany they're usually doing it so they can either stack the healing speed with a Medkit (and they'll put extra charges on the medkit to help eliminate the downside) or they're bringing it to make Self-Care a little bit faster.
They're generally not gonna be looking through chests for medkits.
I get what you mean though, why bother bringing it at all when CoH is just better?
2 -
Hell, I'm an English speaker and Still confused over IN GAME description of
Scourge Hook: Gift of Pain
- When a survivor is unhooked from a Scourge hook They Survivor suffer from the Hemorrhage and Mangled status effects until fully healed. The First time the survivor is healed, they suffer a 10/13/16 % Speed penalty to Healing and Repairing until they are injured again.
VS the Wikipedia version:
Each time a Survivor is unhooked from a Scourge Hook, the following effects apply:
- The Survivor suffers from the Hemorrhage and Mangled
- Status Effects until healed.
- Upon being healed, the Survivor suffers from a 10/13/16 % Action Speed penalty to Healing and Repairing until they are injured again.
So which is it BHVR? Do the survivors get the Debuff "EACH TIME" they are hooked on a scourge hook and then healed, or only on the "FIRST TIME?"
0 -
Anyone with a good grasp of DBD's balance understands how overtuned CoH is. Compare it to any other healing perk in the game and it makes them all look like trash in comparison.
It also single handedly makes the entire hit and run play style non viable. As well beating down killers that rely on this play style, which mind you are generally some of the weaker killers in the game already.
CoH's sheer existence in a game encourages killers to tunnel because injures are meaningless. With CoH you can typically heal faster than most killer can even land the hits.
Bad design.
10 -
If going to a gen you saw being worked on while on hook to get healed is too hard then Medkits (+ Build to Last), survivor aura reading perks like Bond, playing injured and slamming gens, going for a hook rescue when you see another teammate being chased, or even Self Care + Reactive Healing/Botany Knowledge/Desperate Measures all still exist
0 -
Tbf it makes the other healing perks look like trash because BHVR gutted the other healing perks to the point they're useless. Inner Healing is the only decent one left.
6 -
What if ... CoH actually autoheals you over let's say 35s in its vicinity, no healing action needed, but it's only good for 2/3/4 heals and then breaks the totem? It would allow for a quicker playstyle, but also limit its application.
On the same notion, here is my reworked Dark Theory: you boon a totem, but it turns green, not purple. Survivors can now interact with the boon and gain the effect everywhere they go, not just in a circle around the boon, but if the killer kicks it it's broken for good. A single Dark Theory Boon an be used by 1/2/3 survivors at the same time.
0 -
Checked the French version for easter eggs, but they're only talking about Eruption.
Also, everything was very badly translated.
Perks = "Compétences" (skills) in the French version of the game
In that official text, they were called both "Sorts" (the correct term for Hexes but not for perks) and "Avantages" (literal translation of "perk", doesn't make sense in this context).
So... Hex rework just for us Frenchies ? =D
0 -
Maybe a hint some of the underwhelming hex perks are getting a buff?
That sounds way more fun then translation errors, I'm going with that
1 -
I really wish it is !!
0 -
I'd rather have a real, proper Dead Hard nerf, but I won't say "no" to CoH. It's a moderately overpowered perk that imbalances most games it's played in, and you do see it just about every game. If they're nerfing Eruption (which, whatever, fine), this could help balance things out.
1 -
Self-Care was one of the Perks which just got nerfed for the sake of nerfing. It was already a pretty bad healing option, now it is even worse (which does not prevent people from bringing it and heal for over 40 seconds at baseline..) or has to be paired with Botany Knowledge.
Regarding Botany Knowledge - IMO the efficiency debuff was not needed. The thing is, they wanted to reduce the efficiency with Medkits to slow down Healing Speeds with them, which would have been faster with Botany Knowledge.
However, IMO they should just cap healing Speeds to a minimum time required (same with how much Slowdown a Killer can bring). So that you can still use Perks with Medkits, but avoid things like 4 second Self-Heals when you stack all the Healing-Stuff. This would also mean that individual Perks can be stronger, because pairing them with other Perks will not grant insane Healing Speeds.
0 -
However, IMO they should just cap healing Speeds to a minimum time required (same with how much Slowdown a Killer can bring). So that you can still use Perks with Medkits, but avoid things like 4 second Self-Heals when you stack all the Healing-Stuff. This would also mean that individual Perks can be stronger, because pairing them with other Perks will not grant insane Healing Speeds.
That'd just massively flatten builds.
Honestly, super heal speeds aren't even that big of a deal. Most of the time it barely comes into play at all. Healing is way more conditional than people realise, and it saves way less time than people think. There's a reason the conditional healing perks get no usage.
Even CoH is not that much of a threat anymore. It saves a ton of time on paper, but not in practice.
1 -
Killer hex broken and out for the rest of the game. CoH can be used over and over and over again.
Terrific job devs. Well balanced game play...
3 -
Conditional healing perks got plenty of use before CoH came in and obliterated the competition.
Inner Healing used to be considered a decent perk.
Now CoH does the same thing, infinitely, for all four survivors for the cost of one perk slot.
It's eliminated hit and run tactics from killers, which forces more camping and tunnelling.
6 -
Er, yes, that is the point.
That you should have to heal each other, or everyone who wants to heal themselves should bring their own method to do so. Not "one person brings boon, everyone has fast self-heals".
2 -
Inner Healing being the ONLY one, though. Solidarity saw no use, Second Wind saw no use, in fact, healing perks were rarely picked at all before CoH, barring Inner Healing and Self-Care. Even Botany rarely saw any use.
It's eliminated hit and run tactics from killers, which forces more camping and tunnelling.
On paper, yes, in practice, no. Because CoH doesn't just reduce healing time by an invariable amount in most cases. Same misconception popped up in another thread the other day about how CoH is the only boon that wants to be away from the killer, and that's incorrect.
1 -
Pity that the only people who don't understand this are the ones balancing the game.
0 -
Which ones are you considering gutted other than self care? Botany knowledge I wouldn’t even call a straight nerf. Inner healing is a decent one and was good enough to make it into the meta before CoH yet even with being good enough once CoH came it vanished since it looks bad in comparison.
2 -
Hope they nuke it into they ground. It easily most boosted and broken perk in the game right now.
Every second match I lost, I only lost because one or two survivors had this perk that carried the whole team regardless. Just like eruption sometimes carry bad killers now.
Medkits already strong af, imagine whole team have infinite fast healing due to one perk. I don't understand how this already exist about 2 years in this state.
1 -
We'll Make It was used a decent amount and is still a strong healing perk even now. Yes Solidarity is one of the worst perks in the game and Second Wind, while decent, just isn't quite enough, especially because more CoH means more self-healing which means it's harder to even activiate it.
Those are more problems with the designs of those perks just being bad, or at least not quiiite being enough to make it worth bringing over other perks.
Heck Botany after it's recent buff now made Desperate Measures completely redundant. Even before the buff Botany was better in more situations but now that it gives a flat 50% healing speed, you need everyone injured to make it even sliiightly better than Botany so why bother?
0 -
+ killer has 4 perks and survivors have 16
1 -
Second Wind definitely saw use, although We'll Make It is probably the most common conditional healing perk, and is still in use now.
CoH definitely has a significant effect. It forms a safe zone survivors can run to to heal, and if killers try to follow and continue that chase, they give up all their gen pressure, putting them in a lose-lose situation. You either take the bait and score a down which costs you a gen which is not a fair trade (you need at least 2 hooks per gen on average to make ground as killer) , or you defend the gen and the survivor heals up, temporarily resetting the gamestate.
The core problem is that, as others have mentioned, killer has 4 perks ad survivors have 16. It is an asymmetrical pvp game, where one side is weaker, but has numbers on their side.
In general, killer perks are worth more than survivor perks, that's how it has to be. But CoH is on par with the power of a killer perk, being that it invariably benefits all four survivors for the cost of one perk slot.
Every other boon is much better balanced, in that they work best when in a vulnerable position, giving the killer the opportunity to enact the design counterplay to the perks by snuffing them out (repeatedly). The counterplay to CoH however is too costly because the killer is forced to give up too much to implement it.
It would be like the only counter to NOED was to cleanse all five totems after it's activated not just the one totem it ignites. That's far too costly for the survivor side to deal with.
2 -
But this was always the trade-off. CoH doesn't change that any more than any other healing perk does.
0 -
Except it's four times more potent for the cost of one perk slot...
4 -
Except it isn't. That's part of the misconceptions. CoH isn't actually that much stronger than Botany in its current iteration because of how much more conditional it is in comparison. There's loads of timeloss involved with the use of the perk that other healing perks don't incur. They're not one-to-one comparable.
Playing with and against CoH, in practice, this perk is way weaker than what people on the forums make it out to be. That's not to say that it isn't a strong perk, but it's not some grotesquely overpowered game-changer.
3 -
It takes one perk slot, and four players have self-heals. It isn't four perk slots for self heals, or four items with limited charges for self heals, or eight perk slots for faster self heals. Even after the nerf, it's 1 perk slot for 75% efficient self-heals for the entire team, and if somebody is in the area and free they get a 50% healing speed boost.
CoH prevents generating pressure by spreading injuries--an injured Survivor doesn't pull someone else off of a gen to heal them or stay vulnerable, they run off and heal on their own. Instead of two distracted Survivors whilst chasing a third, or two Survivors grouped up to disrupt, there's only one Survivor occupied, nobody has to leave gens to help them.
And unlike items, it doesn't run out! Even ignoring the idea of bringing other items for some other reason, it's only something that can be entirely removed if the Killer learns who placed it, or if they invest one of the four perk slots they have on something that might not be needed this game (or that they never have chance for)--unlike being able to see four medkits in Lobby and swap Franklin's on or something.
All of this, and if someone else does have a healing perk, it gets boosted too if it ends up in the right spot! This isn't even considering map totem spawns, like main building in Eyrie (I think it still has a totem up there?) that make it trivial to get huge value from placing it.
It's much stronger than Botany in how its presence warps acceptable tactics and build requirements. CoH does more to make spreading injuries to cause slowdown impossible than anything except everyone building for self heals (which is a lot more investment, even if four medkits isn't that much now... but at least visible and counterable). Its presence prioritises not dropping chases after a hit and focusing one Survivor.
Which also pairs horribly with how Dead Hard warps gameplay the same way. You get a perk that penalises anything except dropping chases, and one that warps how chases are played and when you can go for a down, and they're a persistently miserable combo for trying anything else.
6 -
Survivor time is also not comparable to killer time. The 14 seconds to set up a boon can either be crucial or negligible depending on circumstances including gen and totem placements, and the current health/hook state of the game.
Many games have been won entirely due to CoH. Where survivors have a safe zone they can run back to. Not merely individual survivors who have the ability to run away from objectives to heal up, but any and every survivor has the equal ability to do so, all for the cost of one perk. This is far more powerful than individual healing capabilities because it means they can run relays between healing and repairing, ensuring there's as little downtime on either action as is possible.
In order to do this without CoH, every survivor would need to dedicate some of their build to healing, with CoH, only one needs to do so.
4 -
It takes one perk slot, and four players have self-heals. It isn't four perk slots for self heals, or four items with limited charges for self heals, or eight perk slots for faster self heals. Even after the nerf, it's 1 perk slot for 75% efficient self-heals for the entire team, and if somebody is in the area and free they get a 50% healing speed boost.
These numbers are purely in the realm of theory, because practice is way more complicated. If the killer is in the boon area, you can't afford to sit still for ages and heal, and if the killer isn't in the boon area, then any heal speed gets reduced by the fact that the survivor has to move into the boon's influence to make use of it.
And that's also not considering the time it takes to boon.
These numbers are 'best case scenarios' that in reality are surprisingly uncommon. This is something I also really dislike about the way survivor perks get talked about: They are only ever considered from optimal situations, just like that thread the other day where people were legitimately up in arms over a massive multi-stack of conditional perks to minimise heal time, blatantly missing how these situations would not occur during normal gameplay.
CoH prevents generating pressure by spreading injuries
A) that is an overstatement, as CoH CAN diminish pressure, but it doesn't prevent it, and B), that in and of itself is not a problem, much like DS hindering tunnelling is not a problem. If you're up against a CoH, don't bank on spreading injuries and that perk becomes worse and worse.
Don't try to force your way through a counter, adapt to it. Commit to chases and go for downs rather than injuries, if CoH is such a problem.
Many games have been won entirely due to CoH.
And many games have also been won due to a single trapper trap. Does that make trapper OP?
This game has a snowball tendency. One slip-up or outplay on either side can turn games around. The ability to turn a game around is nothing special. I wager many games have also been won by Lithe, or Fixated, if you were to dive into the numbers to the same extent people do about Circle of Healing.
1 -
I still feel like even paired with Botany, and it just isn't worth it compared to Botany + Circle idk the specific time-saving. Still, it just feels better, if you know what I mean like I don't honestly know how people self-care, it reminds me of the incapacitated effect, and don't get me started if they have coulrophobia and mangled with self-care lol.
They really should rework it if they don't want to deal with that kind of perk, honestly, cause sometimes it feels like its more of a detriment to games than a help though I feel bad for the specific builds that utilize self-care like the gimmicky bite the bullet self-care build.
Honestly, I didn't actually think that it would be kind of ridiculous to keep the speed able to be stacked. I was a bit biased since I enjoy Botany so much lol, but I think your idea of capping it would honestly make it way safer. I also think that they should maybe make other perks that aren't used as much, like autodidact, and increase the skill check rate by at least 10% or 20%. Then it could potentially counter coulrophobia, it already somewhat does, but the skill check rng feels so bad, honestly.
I also wish they took ideas like making the one Jill perk where you get half of your bar back have a secondary effect of countering the bleed status and Reactive Healing. Just to make those perks more viable since mangled is now way more popular. (When they don't use full slowdown.)
Though I am a bit scared that they will make more downright busted perks like Eruption or buffed boil over before it was nerfed, but I'm still really excited to see more perk passes. I always forget when the next chapter will be released. I am pretty sure the next perk pass will be next midchapter, where they finally look at eruption. However, I can't remember when the midchapter is.
0 -
the middle of the chapter was a couple of days ago, the next middle will be in April/May
0 -
That sucks cause I was hoping it would be sooner than that, the current meta feels very stale lately it's been getting on my nerves lol. Oh well.
0 -
This is all they need to do. Just get rid of the perk and give killers the option to destroy the totem.
1 -
And all other perks have theoretical numbers.
Seriously, though, "Circle of Healing provides 75% efficient self-heals in an area that covers 1/5 of your average map and gets outright silly on multi-level maps" is not a theoretical number. Nor is its ability to boost anyone else that may be in said area. Will it always get peak usage? No. But that goes for everything. Someone can be running CoB+Eruption+NtH and they might never get any value from it because they can't get the downs in time, but we don't pretend the combo isn't problematic the way it works now.
Don't try to force your way through a counter, adapt to it. Commit to chases and go for downs rather than injuries, if CoH is such a problem.
Yeah, I said that's what people have to do. And that's the problem: the counter to one Survivor on the team bringing one perk is essentially "an entire playstyle has to be abandoned".
Think about that: one Survivor brings one perk, and it's used enough you have good odds of seeing at least one of them in 75% of games, and an entire playstyle that some entire Killers are meant to utilise (stealth killers particularly, and Legion's entire thing aside from currently negating DH) is massively devalued to the point that 'commit to chase even when you know it's a bad chase' is required if you want to get value.
That's horrible from a balance perspective! It's not even an expensive investment on the Survivor side, and it gets massive value by its very existence.
3 -
it works like this. you get hooked. Survivor is inflicted with mangled+Hemorrhage. If they heal. they gain -16% to healing action and repair actions. If you get hit, the perk disables itself. really bad imo. The perk effectively encourage you to waste your time chasing a surivvor. i.e have 60 second chase(chase, down, pick up, place on hook) then you need purposely let the survivor heal themselves and then never hit them entire game and let them do generators for entire rest of the game.
I agree with your post the most. soloq is just really inefficient at healing. if you apply injure pressure in soloq as killer, most teams easily break down if your experienced enough as killer. this is why I think that stealth killer are very predatory for soloq while being a complete joke for 4 man swf's. COH bridges that gap but ideally, I think a perk bridge gap is not ideal and its probably better to provide information for soloq to actively and convenient find teammates to heal.
Inner healing is really bad perk. finding totems for 1 heal is not good time investment for survivor. There are no official stats for what perk usage of inner healing is but if we look at Nightlight which gives just rough sample of usage rate of inner healing. it is around 1.5%-2%. After that, you have self-care. I do not see this perk a lot anymore but apparently its 8% usage. I used to see more before but now I do not see at all. The only other healing perk you see is we'll make it(5.5%). The reason why it is good perk is because most time-efficient healing for survivor is healing under hook. We'll make it is aggressive temp-healing perk that allows you to heal in dangerous situations and complete the heal without getting interrupted. If over the course of a chase, a killer spends 60 seconds interacting with a survivor 1 hook state, then we'll make it can undo killer's damage in 8 seconds. All you get is 1 hook-state and as far as survivor is concerned, the killer get no reward for 1 hook-state.
It also single handedly makes the entire hit and run play style non viable. As well beating down killers that rely on this play style, which mind you are generally some of the weaker killers in the game already.
This is just my opinion on this topic. I think hit & run is supposed to be a perk-oriented play-style to play the game. Not just a generic every killer can do it gameplay. From my personal experience, I think that in order for the play-style to have merit in strength, Individual healing needs to take around 26 seconds to heal towards SWF-level efficiency. That is roughly around -40% towards healing speed. Sloppy butcher is only 20% and its just not enough on its own to stand. Granted, according Nightlight, its 10th most popular perk at 10% usage. Other than that, there is no other consistent anti-heal perks that encourage spreading injures across entire team that stealth killers can utilize. I guess you could say instant down perks but there is just no relevant consistent instant down perk.
2 -
Gift of Pain is actually pretty good, though. If they heal, they're slowed down until you're chasing them again (very good if you're constantly rotating Survivors), and if they don't heal... well, they're injured. It encourages you not to drop chase once you've injured a Survivor a second time, but its actual effect isn't bad.
It's just kind of ridiculous that it's a scourge hook in the end. So hard to get consistent value if the map is mean. ~_~
0 -
And all other perks have theoretical numbers.
Yes, and those theoretical numbers mean -nothing-, that's the point.
"Circle of Healing provides 75% efficient self-heals in an area that covers 1/5 of your average map and gets outright silly on multi-level maps" is not a theoretical number.
Yes, it is. Run the perk, figure out how efficient it is, because in reality, it doesn't ever hit that 75%. I mean, your approach to these theoretical numbers is already banning out the number that's inconvenient to your argument, so I don't know how anyone is supposed to take your assessment seriously.
Yeah, I said that's what people have to do. And that's the problem: the counter to one Survivor on the team bringing one perk is essentially "an entire playstyle has to be abandoned".
And? Are we talking balance or playstyles here? Because the former is a valid concern, the latter is obviously not, otherwise we wouldn't have killers like Doctor or Plague.
2 -
Every perk has efficiency losses, though. It's like saying Self-Care isn't 35% efficient healing because most of the time you don't start healing exactly as soon as you get off hook or the Killer wanders off (and those who do tend to go down immediately). The case you should be making is how the efficiency loss for travelling to a booned area and setup time somehow makes it in line with other healing perks. But they don't.
Saying "this number is only theoretical in its efficiency gains" goes for every single instance where a perk isn't 'drop everything and do the activity on the spot', which is almost always a catastrophic misplay and does way more harm to efficiency as a consequence.
And? Are we talking balance or playstyles here? Because the former is a valid concern, the latter is obviously not, otherwise we wouldn't have killers like Doctor or Plague.
They're intertwined. Some Killers are expected to play a more hit and run style. Other Killers who don't rely entirely on instadowns are at least generally assumed to get some value out of injuring and dropping chase.
One perk, on one survivor, eliminates both these expectations. That's horribly balanced.
2 -
The case you should be making is how the efficiency loss for travelling to a booned area and setup time somehow makes it in line with other healing perks. But they don't.
That is exactly the case I am making, and yes, they do.
Trust me, I run a TON of healing perks, and CoH is NOT that spectacular. It -can- be, but it's also far more likely than most other healing perks to not do anything at all.
Some Killers are expected to play a more hit and run style.
Yes, and those are equipped to perform it to such an extent that CoH won't stop it.
Other Killers who don't rely entirely on instadowns are at least generally assumed to get some value out of injuring and dropping chase.
And they still do, even if they drop chase within CoH aura, because CoH isn't -100% healing time, unlike what you've been presenting it as. But even then, all you need to do is -not- drop chase within the aura unless you're snuffing it out.
This perk is not some kind of death-grip on the hit-and-run playstyle. It's a counter, but so is Empathic Connection.
All this talk about CoH is gross exaggeration that does not line up with how the perk actually performs in-game.
2 -
This perk should be entirely reworked. It should be the boon version of unlimited Bond with a healing bonus for healing someone else (NO SELF HEAL).
When you are inside it, you can see every other survivor aura, they can also see yours and come heal you at a faster speed.
Add an Iron will effect to the boon if that’s too weak.
This would help soloQ, without breaking the game.
0 -
Botany was definitely a nerf. You trim 1.5 seconds off a heal compared to old Botany. For that you get a negative to you're medkit charges. Definitely not worth the trade.
1 -
It needs a nerf regardless (and/or boons should be reworked).
1 -
I just want base self care back at 32 seconds. There was no need to nerf the heal speed when they admitted the problem was higher mmr survivors using the medkit efficiency bonus to squeeze out maximum use of their medkits. Which they removed from the perk, the heal speed shouldn't have been touched.
0 -
CoH and other boon perks would be "ok" if the killer destroyed the bones when they snuffed the boon as a base kit feature.
It's utter nonsense for a killer to gamble 1/4 perk slots to be able to destroy a boon if 1/16 survivor perk slots is a boon. Imagine the reverse.
Imagine not being able to break hex totems because you can't overwrite them with a boon? If that sounds broken then you know CoH is broken.
3
