The Ranks Sum Up Every Legion Game

NightmareReborn

Sixnno

Great killer at pipping and ranking up.

If you count ranking up as winning, then legion is one of the best killers.

TAG

Sixnno said:

Great killer at pipping and ranking up.

If you count ranking up as winning, then legion is one of the best killers.

Ever since I briefly played Identity V while my PS4 was under repairs, I've personally adopted that game's style of winner/loser.

0-1 kills = Survivors win
2 kills = tie
3-4 kills = Killer wins

TigerKirby215

Honestly true. This Killer gets Iridescent Chaser by existing.

thesuicidefox

@Sixnno said:
Great killer at pipping and ranking up.

If you count ranking up as winning, then legion is one of the best killers.

Ranking up is literally the only metric of a "win" in this game. SMH

Sixnno

thesuicidefox said:

@Sixnno said:
Great killer at pipping and ranking up.

If you count ranking up as winning, then legion is one of the best killers.

Ranking up is literally the only metric of a "win" in this game. SMH

I mean kind of.

Some people view killing as the killers objective. Legion gets low kills and thus doesn't win for a majority of people that hold that view. 

NightmareReborn

@Sixnno said:
thesuicidefox said:

@Sixnno said:

Great killer at pipping and ranking up.

If you count ranking up as winning, then legion is one of the best killers.

Ranking up is literally the only metric of a "win" in this game. SMH

I mean kind of.

Some people view killing as the killers objective. Legion gets low kills and thus doesn't win for a majority of people that hold that view. 

I think of it like this:
Pips: Performance
Kills: Win/Loss

Dustbin

Too bad ranking up is a bad thing, only lengthens queue times.

thesuicidefox

@Sixnno said:
Some people view killing as the killers objective. Legion gets low kills and thus doesn't win for a majority of people that hold that view. 

Your "view" of winning is irrelevant. Otherwise anything could be a "win".

Pips are the only way the game defines a win.

Sixnno

thesuicidefox said:

@Sixnno said:
Some people view killing as the killers objective. Legion gets low kills and thus doesn't win for a majority of people that hold that view. 

Your "view" of winning is irrelevant. Otherwise anything could be a "win".

Pips are the only way the game defines a win.

It's not my view. 

It's the view of many. Especially since killers used to be judge on just kills and still have killing apart of the current pip system.

People play killer to KILL. 
Legion might pip, but he is very infective at KILLING. 

It doesn't matter if pip means win of the player FEELS like they lost even in the case of winning. 

It doesn't matter if players can easily win as legion by the current game standards if a lot of players FEEL it's a lost and un-fun.

Spiritbx

Petition to rename "Killer" to "Pipper" Since obviously they aren't supposed to actually kill.

Freudentrauma

@thesuicidefox said:
Pips are the only way the game defines a win.

No, that's how it was defined over the time. But the core game system actually defines Kill or Escape as the win/lose conditions for survivors. For killers it's more complicated, because technically you win/lose against individual survivors, but I would say each kill is a win and the core design is about how many you can earn each match.

HatCreature

The Killers are definitley divided in what is considered winning, I use to view winning as getting at least 2 kills, 3 Kills I am satisfied and the 4th is just awesome. But after watching a lot of videos of people playing and learning strategies on how best to play each killer and watching those players perform my mindset has changed to winning equals a pip. I got 1 kill but still pipped, well apparentally I sucked ass the whole game and need to get much better but I still pipped so it's a win, a crappy win but a win.

Though having that style of winning means I could get to Rank 1 and suffer but then again any good Killer will eventually get to Rank 1 and may not be able to leave because they're so good.But to the actual post, getting to Rank 1 as Legion isn't an achievment for this exact reason until he is in a proper place and no longer considered a crappy killer. As it is you can pip with him but that doesn't mean he's good, he can just earn a lot of points better than other killers.

thesuicidefox

@Sixnno said:
It's not my view. 
It's the view of many. Especially since killers used to be judge on just kills and still have killing apart of the current pip system.

The argument "everyone believes it therefore it is true" is a logical fallacy called ad populum. It's like saying because most of the world believes in some form of God, that it means God must exist.

@Freudentrauma said:
No, that's how it was defined over the time. But the core game system actually defines Kill or Escape as the win/lose conditions for survivors. For killers it's more complicated, because technically you win/lose against individual survivors, but I would say each kill is a win and the core design is about how many you can earn each match.

No, the win condition is a pip. PERIOD. Playing for kills or escapes as a win condition is the reason there are so many toxic players in this game that get salty when they "lose".

Killing and escape contributes to a win, but is not the sole definition of a win. You can pip without killing or escaping. Is that a loss? No.

Freudentrauma

@thesuicidefox said:

@Freudentrauma said:
No, that's how it was defined over the time. But the core game system actually defines Kill or Escape as the win/lose conditions for survivors. For killers it's more complicated, because technically you win/lose against individual survivors, but I would say each kill is a win and the core design is about how many you can earn each match.

No, the win condition is a pip. PERIOD. Playing for kills or escapes as a win condition is the reason there are so many toxic players in this game that get salty when they "lose".

Killing and escape contributes to a win, but is not the sole definition of a win. You can pip without killing or escaping. Is that a loss? No.

I'm talking to the core game mechanics of the game. If you would prototype DbD and strip it down to it's base mechanics, there wouldn't be any point system. The core game defines the win and lose condition. The pip system is technically just another monthly grind which might be part of the entire game, but not to it's core and it's general feel.

thesuicidefox

@Freudentrauma said:
I'm talking to the core game mechanics of the game. If you would prototype DbD and strip it down to it's base mechanics, there wouldn't be any point system. The core game defines the win and lose condition. The pip system is technically just another monthly grind which might be part of the entire game, but not to it's core and it's general feel.

If we go by that logic, then you only win at Chess by taking out more pieces than your opponent. You win at football (American) by gaining more yards than your opponent. You win at baseball by hitting the ball more than your opponent.

Game mechanics do not define a win. They are contributory to but not mandatory for a win. Escaping was never a victory condition. Killing was only a victory condition during victory cube. TODAY RIGHT NOW, pips are the victory conditions. That's all that matters.

Loinburgers

People are allowed to consider a win in different ways, some prefer kills or pips. For me personally it all comes down to getting 4 stacks of BBQ and soaking in the bloodpoints. I will completely throw a game to get that last stack, which I think is fun for both sides. It encourages me to not tunnel and camp, and it gives the survivors a lot of breathing room. We all get to have fun :chuffed: As far as legion goes, I love him for the bloodpoint machine that he is, I just think he needs a rework so others enjoy playing him as well.

Freudentrauma

@thesuicidefox said:

@Freudentrauma said:
I'm talking to the core game mechanics of the game. If you would prototype DbD and strip it down to it's base mechanics, there wouldn't be any point system. The core game defines the win and lose condition. The pip system is technically just another monthly grind which might be part of the entire game, but not to it's core and it's general feel.

If we go by that logic, then you only win at Chess by taking out more pieces than your opponent. You win at football (American) by gaining more yards than your opponent. You win at baseball by hitting the ball more than your opponent.

Game mechanics do not define a win. They are contributory to but not mandatory for a win. Escaping was never a victory condition. Killing was only a victory condition during victory cube. TODAY RIGHT NOW, pips are the victory conditions. That's all that matters.

That's a bad comparison. The equivalent of Chess, or real life sport games would be, if a win betwen two teams would be defined by an addition point system, which allows both parties to win, if they just perform a good enough interest play from both sides.
And I'm not saying that game mechanics define the win. I say the core game, if you break it down to it's minimum. If you ever need to explain DbD core mechanics, you wouldn't mention the pips or emblem system add all, because it's outside of it. Everybody at first glance would understand, that an escape, which is the killer's job to prevent is a win condition.

And like I said. Pips are just pips. They define were you land in an monthly grindy rank system without rewards that's it. Still to this day survivors are told in the tally system "Match result: Sacrificed" "Match Result: Escaped".
I know it got changed for Killers with the emblem system, but befor it used to be depending on kills. And I think you still need a 4k for "Merciless Victory".

thesuicidefox

@Freudentrauma said:
And I'm not saying that game mechanics define the win. I say the core game, if you break it down to it's minimum.

This is LITERALLY what game mechanics are. Core game , "minimum", those are game mechanics.

Pips = win. That's how it is defined in the game. You can do whatever mental gymnastics you want to validate kills/escapes as wins, but that's not the way the game works. I've escaped and depipped, and I've gotten kills and depipped. Did I win? No because I depipped, WHICH IS A LOSS. If you can do these things and still lose, then they aren't win conditions.

If you want to play to escape/kill/get 4 BBQ stacks/whatever that's fine. But it's not a win as defined by the game and therefore not a real win. Otherwise I could literally say anything is a win. I found a purple flashlight in a chest. WIN. I hit a survivor with a cross-map hatchet. WIN. I wasn't the first to die. WIN. You see how absurd that is right?

Sixnno

@thesuicidefox said:

@Sixnno said:
It's not my view. 
It's the view of many. Especially since killers used to be judge on just kills and still have killing apart of the current pip system.

The argument "everyone believes it therefore it is true" is a logical fallacy called ad populum. It's like saying because most of the world believes in some form of God, that it means God must exist.

@Freudentrauma said:
No, that's how it was defined over the time. But the core game system actually defines Kill or Escape as the win/lose conditions for survivors. For killers it's more complicated, because technically you win/lose against individual survivors, but I would say each kill is a win and the core design is about how many you can earn each match.

No, the win condition is a pip. PERIOD. Playing for kills or escapes as a win condition is the reason there are so many toxic players in this game that get salty when they "lose".

Killing and escape contributes to a win, but is not the sole definition of a win. You can pip without killing or escaping. Is that a loss? No.

I like how you completely ignore the part were I state that: that was how the game used to be scored. a Killer needed to get kills to pip and due to that a lot of players (even after the change the emblem system) still go off that method for win or lose.

You also ignore the part were I state** how people play a killer in this game to KILL.**

Legion might win, but he doesn't win by killing. Thus for a lot of people he is a bad killer since he doesn't actually KILL HIS TARGETS.

@thesuicidefox said:

@Freudentrauma said:
I'm talking to the core game mechanics of the game. If you would prototype DbD and strip it down to it's base mechanics, there wouldn't be any point system. The core game defines the win and lose condition. The pip system is technically just another monthly grind which might be part of the entire game, but not to it's core and it's general feel.

If we go by that logic, then you only win at Chess by taking out more pieces than your opponent. You win at football (American) by gaining more yards than your opponent. You win at baseball by hitting the ball more than your opponent.

Game mechanics do not define a win. They are contributory to but not mandatory for a win. Escaping was never a victory condition. Killing was only a victory condition during victory cube. TODAY RIGHT NOW, pips are the victory conditions. That's all that matters.

Now that's a lie.

Game mechanics do define a win in chess and american football.

The core game mechanics of chess is to move pieces to the other side and to take their King. All other mechanics support this in that.

In foot ball the rules are all built around the main win mechanic as well: to get to the scoring zone.

Dbdl's win mechanics are not built around the main mechanics of the game. Due to the point were people complained so much that they have had to re-write the "win" condition 3 separate times for killers and twice for survivors. Dbdl's win is not a zero-sum game. Unlike those examples you gave above, 3 every one can 'win' in dbdl currently.

Before DBDL had a win system that supported it's core mechanics. the core mechanics of the game, as a killer is to kill the survivors. The survivor's core mechanics is to hide and do the gens and then escape. The current win system does not support the core mechanics, but does support a lot of secondary mechanics which is what a lot of the players wanted.

Finally I'll leave off with this:

If people were happy with winning with Legion, there would be no complaints right now since it's fairly easy to actually win as Legion. Instead we have a large number of complaint threads both here, reddit, and steam about how weak he is as a KILLER.

thesuicidefox

@Sixnno said:
I like how you completely ignore the part were I state that: that was how the game used to be scored. a Killer needed to get kills to pip and due to that a lot of players (even after the change the emblem system) still go off that method for win or lose.

USED TO BE SCORED. Past tense. A year ago, yes you could say killing = win. Not anymore, which you seem to be ignoring.

@Sixnno said:
You also ignore the part were I state** how people play a killer in this game to KILL.**

People play killer for other reasons. I've faced a Freddy that slugged everyone and never took hooks. He played just to chase people and slow down the game. Needless to say we all escaped, but the game lasted a long time and he definitely got iri Chaser. Therefore he (likely) pipped and won.

You can't speak for everyone.

@Sixnno said:
The core game mechanics of chess is to move pieces to the other side and to take their King. All other mechanics support this in that.

Yes, taking the king is the win condition. That's the goal of the game. Taking any other piece is ultimately irrelevant. It CONTRIBUTES to a win, since if you take out all the opponent's pieces they won't be able to beat you, but it's not explicitly the win condition.

@Sixnno said:
In foot ball the rules are all built around the main win mechanic as well: to get to the scoring zone.

But this isn't the only mechanic. It is the scoring condition. Making plays and gaining yards is a mechanic too. But you can have more yards gained than the opponent and still lose if you never convert that yardage to scoring points. You can go from the 90 yard line to the 1 yard line 1000 times, but if you never score the opponent can beat you by gaining 100 yards and actually scoring.

@Sixnno said:
Dbdl's win mechanics are not built around the main mechanics of the game. Due to the point were people complained so much that they have had to re-write the "win" condition 3 separate times for killers and twice for survivors. Dbdl's win is not a zero-sum game. Unlike those examples you gave above, 3 every one can 'win' in dbdl currently.

??? Emblem system isn't built around the mechanics of the game??? Ok let's take a look...

Chaser/Evader = most basic mechanic of the game, the chase. You catch a lot of people or if you escape a chase every time you you score in these emblems.

Gatekeeper/Lightbringer = the objective mechanic for survivors. Stop them at gens or do gens to score here.

Benevolence/Malicious = injuring and healing mechanic. Yet another mechanic of the game used in a scoring system.

Devout/Unbreakable = kills/escapes. This is the only point in the game where these things matter, but like I keep saying it's CONTRIBUTORY not MANDATORY. You get kills or escape, you merely increase the chance of a pip (win). You don't guarantee it. There are situations where you can do these things and not pip. Tombstone Myers has this issue, if he kills everyone with tombstone he won't get Chaser/Malicious and can safety or even depip (if they did gens super fast). Likewise, a survivor can do LITERALLY NOTHING the entire game except rotate from random locker to random locker, then run out the gate. They get iri Unbroken, but nothing in every other category. By definition OF THE GAME'S SCORING SYSTEM, they lost.

@Sixnno said:
If people were happy with winning with Legion, there would be no complaints right now since it's fairly easy to actually win as Legion. Instead we have a large number of complaint threads both here, reddit, and steam about how weak he is as a KILLER.

Yea because these people have it set in their mind that kill = win. Again ad populum at work. "Everyone wants to kill therefore killing is a win".

That's not to say he shouldn't be able to kill, he should. Just that, killing is not the only part of the game. There are other parts that are just as important.

Dolphin9192

@TAG said:

Ever since I briefly played Identity V while my PS4 was under repairs, I've personally adopted that game's style of winner/loser.

0-1 kills = Survivors win
2 kills = tie
3-4 kills = Killer wins

That is the way I always viewed it too.