So, how's this perk fair again?
Yeah, yeah, another Dead Hard post. But I want you to sell it to me. How is this perk fair?
I played a game of Trapper today. In it, there were four dead hards. I kept track and I ate 9. How did this happen?
5 of them were from Dead Harding into a pallet. What do I do? I didn't lunge, btw, I just kept walking because I know they can react to me lunging. Swing when they end their DH before they can drop the pallet? What if they don't DH, which did happen twice? Not to mention, latency/server can make the timing borderline impossible to nail at times.
3 of them were from body blocking a hook, and obviously, waiting isn't much of an option. (to be clear, those 3 were all on the same hook/for the same survivor).
And then there was 1 in the open when I tried downing a Yui when she got off a gen while injured. Alright, that was fair.
9 Dead Hards, 5 of which I could literally do nothing, and 3 that were done in solidarity to save a teammate. Even discarding the latter, that still makes 5/9, over half, being Dead Hards I physically could do nothing about.
So how's this fair? Sell it to me. Justify it. And before you say it, Nurse and Blight being stupid strong does not justify stupidity on the other side. It just makes both stupidly strong.
Comments
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I doubt you could NOTHING about it.
It's a read. You really shouldn't be in that position so often, I'd say switch up your more macro-level play in order to help.
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Nah, he is correct.
Trapper is an M1 killer and highly subject to the lose/lose @ pallets against DH.
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It's really hard to say how you could do better in the chases you described without being able to see how the chases went down, what pallets they used DH on and so on
My playstyle around a lot of pallets is to bait/force the drop and then do 50/50s. A survivor locked in animation can't DH or if they lose the 50/50 all they can do is DH in place which can easily be waited out.
Obviously you can't do this for the safer, stronger pallets but if a survivor uses DH to ensure they get those pallets to drop, best thing you can do is just break them.
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So... I shouldn't be in a position where I down a survivor before they reach a pallet at a loop? I can't lunge since they can react (servers/ping issues aside) and I can't M1 when I'm at their back since by then, they'll have made it to the pallet.
The only position this doesn't apply is out in the open. So, in essence, this means I should never chase a survivor in any loop or tile ever?
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Trapper excels in 3-gens, these Survivors are evidently playing to their strengths, so should OP.
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It isn’t a fair perk.
I don’t even think it should be nerfed because nerfing it to make it fair and completely prevent it from getting value every game even in its absence probably requires nerfing it to a useless state. I think it needs to be replaced with a completely different effect entirely.
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You shouldn't be in a position where you MUST swing at a pallet that often.
You can chase people in tiles, but try to herd and move people into areas of the map that have already had their resources used. Much easier to bait out a DH at a window
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As I said, I could hit them before they reach the pallet but then I'd be lunging which is reactable with a DH. So no matter what, I essentially lose a chase I should've won then.
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Honestly, i expect dead hard to get changed at some point and i don't disagree with you. But just play to hard counter it.
Dead hard, is "hard" countered, by "hard" tunneling. Proxy camp them, then when you see a survivor going for the save, INTENTIONALLY hit the survivor that is coming off the hook right after they get unhooked. They'll get a speed boost, and then you just keep going for them. When you do this, you only deal with 1 health state, instead of 3.
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If it's a strong pallet, it's fine to eat it. If it isn't, why swing?
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Bruh...
Do you have the ability to teleport a survivor to a specific location in the tile during a chase or what? What else? Overtake the survivors so that they don't reach the pallet?
If 16k of your comments are just as meaningless and useless, well, then I don't envy your conversationals.
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Creating deadzones near generators is killer 101
If you chase a survivor who's giving you a tour of the whole map and you simply can't catch them, it might be time to cut your losses and go for someone else.
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Cool story, bro, how does this relate to my comment?
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My guy (or gal, I won't assume), Pulsar literally said
"try to herd people toward areas that have had their resources used"
then your response is "uhh so like you can teleport them???"
What was your point, exactly?
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New DH is a buff to Trapper since DH over trap is no more a thing.
And yes, I can control survivors’ movement into my trapped areas.
DH is surely still annoying, but for Trapper its far less than before.
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I have the ability to herd people in ways that benefit me.
Most of it is just understanding how people think and act when they're under stress.
If you're just chasing people as they give you a map tour, idk, maybe don't do that?
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Dead Hard is absolutely unfair unless it is against Nurse, Blight, and maybe Spirit. If you're reaching, maybe Legion and Slinger as well since they can turn it off.
However, I would say that Trapper is in slightly better shape vs it than other M1 killers since they can't DH traps anymore. 50/50ing the pallet doesn't really work if there's a bear trap there.
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He said "You shouldn't be in a position where you MUST swing at a pallet that often." That's what I was responding to.
You can't avoid it and it's pointless advice.
I do not understand where and why you are trying to push your conversations about deadzones, if we are literally talking about a hit under the pallet.
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Okay that makes more sense, I was confused about what your point was
I don't think anyone here would argue that DH doesn't make swinging into pallets a losing scenario for killers a lot of the time. Personally I just swing into pallets if I know the person I'm chasing doesn't have DH. I can get rid of the pallets and catch them afterward usually.
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What does that have to do with dead hard in loops?
Being able to pardon yourself from losing the core aspect of the pvp interaction is not 'playing to a strength,' it's an unfair contingency for when you've been outplayed by the killer.
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This is not really a DH-Problem, this is a Trapper-Problem.
The thing is, everything in this game what is good against Killers is even better against a Trapper.
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The perk has already been nerfed and reworked.
Just adapt
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I don't see how the concept of fair applies to a game like this.
But, If I had to frame it, around a similar concept I'd say dead hard is fun but causes unintended issues.
I wouldn't change it because of the fun parts of it. I'd mess around with other aspects of the game that lead it to feel unfair.
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Do you have a VOD? People can offer helpful advice with one. I suspect there's a timing issue going on if 5 DHs were proc'd at pallets. You're probably swinging too early. There is a window to get the hit after the DH and before the pallet drop.
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Yeah killer forced to hard tunnel the survivor with Dead Hard its a guaranteed 3 health state otherwise, the only way to down in timely manner if you are playing Blight or Nurse, otherwise must tunnel them as soon as coming down from hook. 1 health state is lot more manageable than, 3 health state, and you even have to do it 3x3---> 9 health state if you don't tunnel, potentially even more if you ever drop chase
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The bigger problem is this game is too survivor friendly. You could literally play survivor and watch a movie at the same time. Try that as a killer and they're escaping in 5 seconds.
Finishing gens is too simple.
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Are you sure that you want killers adapting to this perk? I want to remember you that the only counter to avoid a possible dead hard is hard tunneling... you are literally saying to killers to adapt to this perk by hard tunneling. Do you really want a game like this? Honestly i doubt it...
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generators are fine par se, the problems are mainly 2:
1 maps too much safe for the survivors (too many pallets, too many windows or too many god loops)
2 the lack of a secondary object for survivors to do (honestly i doubt that people found pressing m1 all the time on generators entertaining...), paired with a lot of stuff to speed up generators (from perks to toolboxes)
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This isn't exactly in answer to your question, but have you tried flicking your camera up quickly to bait out the dh? it looks like you're starting to swing, so often survivors will panic-dh in response!
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The main counter is to apply Deep Wound. Applying Deep Wound without it being tied to your power can only be done if you have Endurance. So basically, tunnel a survivor off hook. Are you sure that's how you want people to adapt?
Yes. It rarely works. Entity save you if you're a killer whose lunge makes a distinct sound such as Freddy.
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3 gen or basement build if you play the weakest killer in the game.
This is the way!
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Don't have to tunnel I win most my games without tunneling and I don't play blight or nurse. But there is risk of losing ofcourse.
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maybe because you want the down. If you dont swing, you dont get hits, if you dont get downs, you dont get hooks. If you dont get hooks you are unable too win so what do you mean with "Why swing?"
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Tunnel everyone with DH so I don't have to deal with the butt-stalking? Okay.
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You're saying this as if killers don't already tunnel at every opportunity. Sorry that threat doesn't work when it already happens every match. Kind of reads like pre-6.1 when killers said they would stop camping and tunneling if only gens took longer and DS was nerfed.
And I don't normally run DH so I'm not being "adapted to" in your scenario.
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.... who in the blazes said they'd stop camping and tunneling if gens took longer? "We'll stop this unfun strategy if you buff it!"
Ignoring that, is it really good that you could argue that the most common perk in the game encourages tunneling?
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DH is fine + we had enough dead hard posts. Time to move on
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From a survivors perspective it's amazing, but from a killers perspective yes its annoying, there are ways to counter it, fearmonger, blood echo, and enduring and spirit fury can help with the survivors dead harding in pallets, even just waiting it out or faking the lunge.
Also i'm not seeing too many people bringing dh anymore, I'm seeing lithe more than dh now, but it's not game breaking or totally unfair, adjust your play style to completely counter dh if it really bothers you that much.
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DH is bs but if you eat 3 of them at a hook, that's a skill issue.
"I had no option but to M1" uhh, if you eat a DH you lose 3 seconds. If you wait it out you waste 1 sec and get a down. No survivor will bodyblock a hook while injured without DH.
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You already know the answer: it's not fair, especially against killers like Trapper.
I don't know that I've ever eaten nine Dead Hards in a single game, and maybe you could have baited some of those out or done something to improve your odds, but I get your point.
I've had to retrain myself to get better at baiting DH since it's started appearing more over the past few months, and that helps a lot, but there are still those four-mans where everyone is running it and knows how to use it at pallets and combine it with protection hits, and I'll end up with five or so Save stacks before I see a down.
In what universe? Some of the most frustrating games I've ever played involved trying to get a 3-gen going with Trapper against decent teams on maps like Garden of Joy.
You have two people doing separate gens, one person looping you away from the 3-gen towards a jungle gym, and one complete ######### running around undoing all of your traps, and you don't have enough chase potential to catch anyone in a reasonable amount of time unless you brought Bamboozle and another anti-chase perk (in which case you didn't bring enough regression perks and will ultimately lose the 3-gen).
If you didn't bring some of his best addons plus four gen regression meta perks and also get multiple hooks and preferably a kill before the 3-gen (which usually involves risking the 3-gen by leaving the area), I hope you enjoy the sight of survivors T-bagging at the exit gates.
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Dead Hard isnt fair in its current state, if it was people would not use it as much as they do. Clearly.
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Never mind guys, this historically strong Trapper strategy is actually bad because Garden of Joy sucks ass
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I'm just saying, I haven't even gotten it to work. I don't think there's anything those guys did to me that couldn't have been done on any other map.
I don't think you'll see any success with this strategy on Trapper against survivors who are coordinated. You can decimate an SWF with 3-gen infinite T3 Myers, but all they have to do is dedicate one guy to dismantling your traps and Trapper is finished.
3-gen Trapper is only really effective against idiotic survivors... but, on other hand, I guess that can be said about everything else Trapper does in general. It probably is one of his better strategies, then, but that's not saying much.
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Isn't it also bad because they keep taking out all the grass, leaving us with Trapper as an excellent candidate for 'what can you do if your power isn't applicable'?
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You're overthinking it... just camp/tunnel... duhhhhhhhhh
that's what killers do anyway.
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Yeah a Perk that gives a Survivor a 3rd Heal State, has no counters except tunneling and has a usage of 85% is cleary fine
I See a Dead Hard User here who get carried by a broken unhealthy Perk
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It's like those streamers saying DH is OP and yet they end the match with 3~4k
"Ohh look, 4 DH" - says the guy playing killer for their 4k viewers while the survivors fail miserably using it and go to the ground immediately after.
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its been debunked, its just a matter of timing and unfortunately ping. a well timed lunge (assuming u readed the deadhard) will guarantee the down.
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Against fully charged Huntress hatchet it's a read. Against a lunge at a regular loop it's a simple reaction, high MMR survs pull it off very consistently.
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