How to address the Skull Merchant 3gen abuse
So if you play both sides, by now I'm sure you have faced a SM that sits on a 3gen from the start of the match and then does not chase outside of the area. Then add the synergy with the gen kick meta and the result is the game stalls and becomes a stalemate where the survivors are essentially forced to give up/run in and give a free down/kill in order for the game to progress/end.
Here's my proposed change: if you are working on a gen, your exposed build up timer is paused. The reason for this would be two fold 1. deactivating drones actually does nothing in the grand scheme of things 2. having to hack the drone to avoid being exposed is just a waste of time since she can just put the drone right back.
There was a time when 3 gens used to be seen as an error made by the survivors. However it seems like maps are spawning easy 3 gens more often now. Prime examples like Dead Dawg, RPD (with 2 gens in the middle room), or multi-floor maps like the game. You should not be able to win simply because you can stall the game to a halt from the beginning of the game.
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Theres no easy fix im afraid, due to her problems being fundamental to her design.
People compare her to Knight for 3 gen potential but honestly, shes way stronger, she immediately knows if someone is working on one of the 3 gens, and depending on addons, she can be even stronger from her Drones buff/debuffs.
And committing to gen will only end with you getting Exposed, and even if you get rid of her drone, she can easily put up another one in matter of seconds.
Simply nerfing her could cripple her and make her really weak, but obviously she cant remain in this state
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You do know that your suggestion makes deactivating her drones completely pointless and because of that also nerfs her tracking ability, right? Skull Merchant doesn't even work with her kit the way it is. Nerfing it will only make that killer more of a joke than she already is.
What Skull Merchant needs is a complete rework. You can't change one part of her kit and hope that it will solve her issues because her entire kit is the issue.
I don't know what BHVR messed up with the gen spawns but for some reason there are maps where up to 5 gens will always spawn in close proximity. It didn't used to be like that. I hope they'll fix that eventually.
More importantly than gen spawns however are the regression perks for killers. These are the reason why 3 genning has become more prevalent. Because the best gen regression perks (CoB + Overcharge) only work in that set up. Who would have guessed that nerfing perks that encouraged chasing and hooking and replacing them with perks that work best when camping was a bad idea? These perks need changes to encourage healthy gameplay again.
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Nerf CoB and Overcharge, buff gen defense that's predicated on actually chasing and downing players. You know, how it was before they "shook up" the meta and made the game more unbearably stale than ever.
She would still be a ######### killer, but at least she wouldn't be able to stall games indefinitely.
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They can't really do anything about the gen spawns though. One of the biggest requests they get is for maps to be smaller. If maps were bigger then gen spawns wouldn't be an issue, but they'd just anger half the playerbase if they did that.
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They can, actually. Haddonfield, RPD and Suffocation Pit for example all have some weird kind of bug (I hope it's a bug) that spawns gens much closer than they should. Especially since all of these maps were ok in that regard before.
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This thread makes me happy the community has no real input in terms of balances changes because holy hell that would be awful. SM basically wouldn't have a power if they didn't work while you were on gens and shotgun speakers and adi valente #1 basically wouldn't do anything as add-ons.
I've watched TTVs against my SM and they literally are too scared to run through drone areas and just stand around waiting for them to go inactive if that's how everyone is playing against SM ofc she seems too strong. Running into active drone areas are not scary run in and deactivate the drones as soon as you find them and if everyone is doing that SM shouldn't really be able to keep up her gen pressure buying you time to break the 3 gen while she's waiting to get her drones back.
The problem is the current meta which is very favorable to SM and teams don't really understand how to play against her yet. I've said it's like cenobite in terms of cooperation but having thought about it more it's more like plague. With plague everyone needs to be on the same page either everyone cleanses and overloads her fountains or nobody cleanses meaning she never gets red vom. Now just never doing drones isn't really an option because that's too risky but when someone is disarming a drone everyone needs to disarm all the drones so it's gonna take SM close to 45 seconds if she wants to setup again so if you do this 2 or 3 times you should be able to break the 3 gen and after you do that she's mostly harmless after that depending on her add-ons.
SM really isn't too strong by any means I think she's stronger than a lot of people say but she's pretty average in my estimation with extreme strengths and weaknesses. I think people are struggling with her because she's more puzzle like than most other killers. You don't beat her by looping you beat her by solving her drone network and breaking the 3 gen before doing other gens because she's much easier to beat after you do that. This is something very different than most players are used to so it's gonna take a lto fo time to get used to.
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Not a bug; deliberate, although I believe they stopped RPD from spawning a 4-Gen it still spawns a 3-Gen virtually every game. As maps become smaller gens will naturally spawn closer together. It’s why killers want smaller maps.
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This is just false all the way around. You can deactivate drones all day, and guess what? She puts one back a few seconds later. Now think about the 3 gen set up on a map like dead dawg. The gens in the back and within eyesight of one another. COB + Overcharge + PR and drones overhead = you are not getting those gens done without bnps.
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Wait, what? They changed that on purpose? I think I'm gonna lose it.
Shortly after the RPD rework there never were 2 gens in the main room. That only appeared some patches later and now it's literally every game. And in Haddonfield only one gen used to spawn in or outside of Myers' House. The gen in Myers' House could spawn on second floor as well. Also I had never seen the notorious 5 gen on Suffocation Pit up until some time last year (can't remember when exactly). I was 100% certain that this must be a bug.
What were they thinking?!
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I guess they were thinking it would be easier to spawn gens closer together than to shrink maps (with the exception of RPD, obviously). Tbf not every killer can hold a 3-Gen and survivors can technically try to prevent them with perks (Deja Vu, etc) and teamwork. So that’s the counter.
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I'm not sure I agree that not every killer could hold these 3 gens. You might have some trouble with Michael Myers because his power literally runs out eventually and maybe Freddy Krueger for obvious reasons. But other than them I can guarantee you, if I set my mind on it I could drag my games with every killer out to be 40+ minutes long. I could lose still but I could definitely make this an unfun experience for all 5 of us. Especially when I as a killer would camp my 3 gen from start to finish (this is something that people do).
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"Abuse" lol.
Sure most Survivors are abusers too because they all bring Dead Hard.
Using the best strategy = abuse 👍👍.
And no, your change idea is bad. She needs changes but not these and not a direct nerf. She needs some serious buffs.
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its not "abuse." its a strategy. and its the only thing she has. if you take that away she is potentially the worse killer in the game with basically nothing.
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Yes it is abuse. I view it no differently then when the devs overbuffed boil over and survivors were running to the library on the old RPD to make themselves unhookable. It isn't strategy when it doesn't require any thought or skill to do. There is no way to justify how this is good "strategy" on maps that have built in 3 gens (like dead dawg) that can be defended from the moment the match starts. I'm just going to assume you haven't played against this as a solo survivor yet because if you had, you'd realize how dumb it is to know the game is lost from the beginning if the SM does this and has slowdown perks stacked on top.
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The only change we can think of that doesn't completely change the killer would be something along the lines of a delay when a survivor hacks a drone. As it stands survivors hacking drones doesn't do much and comes with risks. If survivors hack a drone maybe a longer delay to redeploy or have to repair it or something along those lines. Make it so she can't immediately fix the area if survivors successfully hack the drone to give them some progress time.
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Why not simply take out 3 gen spawn completely ? make gens be far from each other on every map, every time, problem solved. It's huge nerf but step in right direction, alongside this they have to nerf gen speed addons/ittems/perks and they have to make gen last much much longer before getting done to balance the spawns
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Maps aren’t big enough to completely avoid 3gens. But maps also shouldn’t be bigger because non mobility killers already suffer on big maps.
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There's also the fact that you can't force a killer to chase a survivor in a way that isn't advantageous to the killer. When playing killer, and a survivor leads me to a loop that is very strong, I normally do one of two things. 1) Leave the chase, as time is a most valuable asset to a killer and I can't afford to waste time trying to get a hit when the survivor has too strong of an advantage at this loop. Or 2) try to get a quick pallet drop and break the pallet. If this happens, I either continue the chase if I'm sure I can get a quick down, or leave the chase, knowing that I at least removed the pallet from this strong loop, making it weaker the next time a survivor wants to bring me there.
One of the most valuable skills a killer can learn is to know when to walk away from a chase, and they should always walk away from a chase where they can gain no advantage
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I have literally never once seen any variation of RPD that didn't have a gen setup like this, As far as i'm concerned, this is intended, and if the survivors don't complete these gens first, the game is basically a guaranteed loss for them, since the killer can literally just stand on the balcony and have 3 to 4 gens in viewing distance and at arms reach
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No bad killer. You must mindlessly follow the survivor to there loop of choice and run around in circles for 2 minutes.
But seriously detaching from chase because of strong loops is getting harder to do lately because alot of loops are safe on many maps.
BHVR has made the majority of loops safe for survivors which completely removed any gameplay for a killer but break the pallet and move on to the next safe loop. Loops need to have gameplay from both sides not once the pallet is down it's BL and lose the game but get a hit or just break the pallet and continue chase.
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The devs have said 3-genning is a valid strategy. Killers have every right to try and kill you, since, you know, that's their job and all. And 3-genning is one (very good) way to do that. What people don't seem to get is, the killer isn't there to make your game last less than 45 minutes. He has no responsibility to make your game shorter.
I only play solo survivor. I've had many a 3gen used against me. Some I won, some I lost, but every time the game was absolutely fair. Just because you don't like a strategy doesn't mean the strategy is abuse.
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I think the 3 gen strategy as whole should be tackled: there should be a limit to how many times a killer can kick each each gen (or damage it via a knight). Whatever might happen in a reasonable 10 minute game, add one to that, and that's your cap. This way killers could still have a 3 gen with the possibility of a come back after 4 gens are done, but can't use it is as there absolute strategy.
You and others are really just arguing definitions.
Yeah, BHVR is saying they are cool with it. Others are saying you shouldn't be cool with it, here's why. We know what BHVR is saying and we're saying it makes for a really bad game and they should do something to stop it.
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Three gen abuse? Sorry, but frustrating as it is, three genning is a legitimate strategy for a killer to use, especially for a killer with as weak anti-loop and chase ability as the Skull Merchant.
It's no more abuse than a survivor trying to flashlight blind a killer after every pallet stun or as the killer breaks the pallet. Frustrating? Yes, but not abusive.
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But you haven't given a convincing argument as to why they should get rid of it other than "I don't like being 3-genned. It makes games 45 minutes".
But what if I, as killer, love those kinds of games because I'm constantly engaged trying to keep you little snots off the gens? You say 10 minutes is reasonable. I disagree with your definition of "reasonable".
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I remember a short period of time after the rework when there was only 1 gen in the main room.
Why they changed that is beyond me.
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But what if I, as killer, love those kinds of games because I'm constantly engaged trying to keep you little snots off the gens?Do you?
But yes, it's called personal opinion. People will disagree on what the ideal length of a game should be. There is no "convincing argument" that exists. Instead players express their opinions about what they do and don't like.
If you want to play a long 40 minute game and you think it should be part of the game, go ahead and say that. But don't fall back on the redundant 'the devs said it was okay'.
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What I think is, the killer has the same right to fun as the survivor. Yes, sometimes it IS fun to have to run back and forth between gens. 3gens have always been fun to me. If I want to sweat, I 3gen. If I don't want to sweat, I don't. I 3gen instead of facecamping or tunneling.
What's even funnier to me is, every time a killer gets a strategy that BHVR has said is acceptable, people rail on it. Camping, tunneling, 3genning - these are all ways the killer can kill. These strategies are basically the only way you can win against high level survs now.
RE: personal opinions, you have to have a convincing argument to get people to agree with you. Is that not why you're posting? To get people to agree with you? I mean, you say this:
"Yeah, BHVR is saying they are cool with it. Others are saying you shouldn't be cool with it, here's why. "
So where's the "here's why" that's convincing?
RE: "The devs said it's ok" is absolutely a valid response. It's an explanation as to why they aren't "fixing" something they don't see as broken, nor do they see as "against the rules". Or as the person I quoted put it, "abusive". Something the devs have baked into the game isn't "abusive" and I take issue with such statements.
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What I think is, the killer has the same right to fun as the survivor.Sure, both sides should have be having fun.
What's even funnier to me is, every time a killer gets a strategy that BHVR has said is acceptable, people rail on it.I mean dead hard, SWF, safe loops, god pallets, it's not exactly unique.
RE: personal opinions, you have to have a convincing argument to get people to agree with you. Is that not why you're posting? To get people to agree with you? I mean, you say this:"Yeah, BHVR is saying they are cool with it. Others are saying you shouldn't be cool with it, here's why. "So where's the "here's why" that's convincing?So the here's why of personal opinion is just 'fun'/'not fun'. It's pretty hard to explain why something is or is not enjoyable, but I'll give it a go:
1: Games should have a predictable time limit. When I start up a game I want a generally rough idea of how long I'll be playing. If I think the game is going to last between 5 and 15 minutes, and it goes 40, I'm going to be upset. Games should have predictable time frames, frequently we have other things to do (or just would rather play a variety of games than one long one)
2: It goes against the concept of the game. DbD plays as a tense race with the survivors trying to complete their objectives before getting caught and eliminated. With a theme of horror movies that tension is important. 3 genning doesn't carry that same emotional weight. It's attack, retreat, attack, retreat, etc. There's no real fear of the killer, just annoyance.
3: It's perk dependent. This is kind of like camping, there are perks to fight it, but being you have no idea who you are going to hit, taking a perk to bust a strategy is a waste in other games. So it's a strategy that feels like you beat it or not based upon choices made before the game begins.
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The devs may be fine with 3 genning, but you might wanna read back on the Reassurance saga that happened several months ago before thinking they'd be fine with stalemate 45 minute games.
Basically, 5 friends decided to play KYF and test the limits of the new Reassurance perk. They kept their friend in game for the full hour. Many killer mains on this forum expressed concern about survivors being able to stall the game for others for that long (even though killers obviously had the means to ensure the game could still progress). The devs agreed and nerfed the perk into the ground.
So I'm not sure why if it wasn't okay for survivors to stall the game for that long back then, why they'd suddenly be okay with killers stalling the game now.
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(slight chuckle) hehe
at least people stop crying about dead hard for a few days
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Afwul killer design and killer players abusing every bit of her as they always do after watching streamers or YT videos cause they can't figure out by themselves.
Their only plan is to 3gen and refusing to chase with the result of 30+ minute games. No one wants to be in those games expect of those who abusing it. Can't wait for the fixes.
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it isnt abuse. defending a 3 gen has been in the game since the beginning. it also isnt impossible to complete a 3 gen. has 3 gen gotten worse? yes. but thats because the killers are poorly designed and thats all they can effectively do. boil over however, that is an abuse. that can make hooking 100% impossible. making the only way to die is to bleed out. it has been nerfed because of it too.
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Then we may bring back boil over to its previous state after all is a strat that survivors used right?
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Hows this sound, 1 gen remaining mode killer is only allowed to have 9 gen kicks, 3 per gen is pretty fair because it can just be undone with a gen tap and to balance that out any survivor who gains a health state while 1 gen is remaining is broken until the final gen is finished, so survivors cant stall the game out by constantly running away to heal.
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I do think there could be room for some tweaks to her kit, but it would truly need to be a REBALANCE and not a nerf. You cannot just take from her, because she is already considered by many to be a weak killer. If you want to take something, you have to give something back. For example...
- Only one drone can be "active" at any given time, as opposed to now, where I can literally have them all active at once
- Any pallets dropped within a Drones active area are instantly shattered
So, if I do take a chase, I can drop drones in loops to shatter dropped pallets instantly (like dream pallets, they do nothing), but because that drone is active, the Gens are now unprotected. So I'm DECREASING my 3 Gen potential, but INCREASING my chase potential.
Worth noting that I am referring to the Killer activating drones. Survivors who run into drone areas all willy-nilly can still activate them.
Just thinking out loud :)
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Talk to BHVR, not me. They're the ones that said 3genning is a valid strategy and they also were the ones that changed the perk.
I don't make the news I just report it.
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That's a great example.
I'd take it. I'm not really worried about numbers or methods per se, that's what playtesting is for, more the idea that there should be some limitation on gen kicks to prevent the killer dragging a match on for 40 minutes.
I'd even take a gen kick limit and match time reduced to 20 minutes (timer stops once all gens complete) and if the survivors don't get the gens by then, killer victory to put pressure on both sides.
Rebuilding Skully around less drones (or considerably harder to refresh), but far greater power, I think would be a good idea that wouldn't really need to change the concept of the character.
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Sure as long as you don't mind been bleeding out on the ground for 4 minutes because your unhookable.
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thats why exponential boon and unbrekable exist u know? valid and no problematic strategy right?
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tinfoil hat much? killers "want" smaller maps, because spawning into a map and literally losing a gen before you can physically walk to it is insane. Because the "hold w" meta is extremely boring for both sides.
That isn't to say that 3 genning, and camping, and tunneling, and YES the fact that you lose 2-3 gens guaranteed in your first chase? All should be fixed.
But i always say the early game goes too fast for killers, and the answer i get? "killers are stronger with less gens"
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I'm starting to believe that they nerfed Eruption because of Skull Merchant and not because of the complaints.
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if u use corrupt intervention that will never happen.- but whatever-
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It's literally all they do it is crazy annoying
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Corrupt intervention does nothing against top tier survivors because either:
A) they force you to chase them near the blocked gens
B) they wait it out
Also, even if it did, a perk should not be required. But hey, i guess 3 gens, camping, and tunneling are all totally fine as well, and we can just keep living in this state where both sides complain about each other instead of realizing that this game encourages extremely unfun tactics from both sides.
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Unbreakable is only 1 time so when they run back to the unhookable spot I will just slug you again. You can always snuff the boon and its very rng base I've never had a problem with exponential.
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The problem with corrupt is you get 2 minutes of use out of it at best then it's a dead perk. So if you get full value from corrupt then your probably going to lose a couple of gens anyway and your having a bad game and if you do down someone quick with corrupt well now its a dead perk even faster.
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