Lobby Dodging, How Often Does It Happen?
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The last part is essentially referencing you saying to just try but is ignoring the abysmal experience for killers at high mmr in good vs good matches with how unbalanced the game is. The second sentence is referencing that you wouldn't agree with this anyway because you don't think those common high mmr vs sweat swf really exists that often so you'd disagree with the base premise.
Essentially your entire premise revolves around those things being essentially okay because "hey the survivors could be bad". Something that is way less likely at high mmr. As said before, you'd disagree with this premise of mmr though which is why we disagree. For reference what if I told you ahead of time that you were going to play against a MDR Spirit with amulet that was just going to hard tunnel and stand in front of the hook this match. Would you want to play that? I mean I could say "hey she could be bad though so it's okay right?" I wouldn't make that argument. If you could know that ahead of time I would expect you to dodge as well.
I also think you downplay extremely, just how much of an advantage 4 medkits is. It isn't even remotely minor. Also with how prevalent BP is now higher quality medkits and addons are much, much more common. I've been starting to track my stats and there's at least one BNP, Syringe, or Styptic in 1/3 games for me now.
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I think it's totally fair to dodge in that scenario if you want to. I've had this happen to me as survivor a few times where I go against the same player with the same killer for two consecutive games and the second game often turned out better for me because in most cases they'd have the same build and I knew exactly what perks and addons they were using. It's definitely a significant advantage.
Of course, you could also just change your build if you don't want to dodge, but I wouldn't say it's really on the killer player to do that just to avoid a disadvantage by virtue of having just played against the same team in the previous match.
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Well, one reason to dodge is survivors changing to another survivor last second.
I play hag as second main killer, and its a killer whose powers is countered by flashlights. So yeah, i dodge whenever i see more than two. However, with people changing survivor last second, you cant do it before, so yeah, learn to live with it. Maybe someday they update hag, maybe to prevent hooktrapping, but also to prevent her powers being taken away by a yellow item.
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Hmm I guess I can see what you're saying. So you view whether it's lobby or in game as basically the same.
I feel like once in game it's causing a lot more disruption and you've already committed to the match. Like for our example a 4 man swf with 4 medkits, once in game I wouldn't dc or anything like that (assume last second item swaps I guess).
For the record though I'm not condoning anybody to do anything, just saying my thought process.
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I’m with Blueberry on this one. The game isn’t balanced for SWF, and even BHVR has confirmed SWF gives an advantage. And I’m sorry, I don’t care how much criticism people bring up about “lobby shopping” or how it screws up the MMR or “you just want easy games” or “not every SWF is a death squad.”
Playing against SWFs isn’t fun. I want to have fun when I’m playing killer. So if I think the survivors are a SWF, I’ll dodge. And I’ll keep doing it until the game forces me to stop.
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So you dodge based almost completely off of a feeling?
Or do you stalk people's friends lists?
Like, you can tell in-game if there's a SWF. Other than obviously matching names, how do you know in the lobby?
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I see both sides do it quite a bit. I've entered lobbies and seen the killer slash come and go a few times. As survivor I'll have a lobby where one or two teammates randomly leave. If two leave I'll leave as well because it never goes well when I stay in those lobbies.
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And how many of those games do you win with a Syringe? For me, it's almost all of them.
And I would disagree, you're correct. If there's high MMR lobbies, I haven't found them. I've even kept track of my last 100 games as Killer, decent win percentage, no high MMR consistently. I've played against a couple of bigger streamers, one scrim team and got sent to Europe for one game where I also played against a streamer (hi tru3!). The only thing consistent was that those games would be followed up by absolute cakewalks.
Medkits are busted. Not everyone brings Uberkits however. I bring a Brown Medkit with no addons into every trial with me since I can't trust my teammates to do anything. I suppose I could just bring CoH.
Would I want to play in that scenario? Yes. Would I want to play after 5 of those in a row? Probably not but I might continue to try to outplay and learn something. Maybe I can get in her head, there's always things to do and learn.
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I get dodged about once per ready.
Max showing prestige is about 30.
I would consider it a problem, if I didn't think it was a bigger problem to imply I should force a solo player to entertain my SWF for 20 minutes.
So, if both concerns can be resolved in some way, I'd be very excited to remove the killers ability to leave a lobby.
But as it is now, I just see angry people.
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I don’t owe you an explanation.
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Obviously.
That's why I asked and didn't demand one.
I'm genuinely curious how you determine if someone is in a SWF while you're still in the lobby if there aren't any obvious indicators like matching names.
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What's less important is whether you win or lose. What is more important is why you win or lose.
If I took some person and told you they lost 90% of their games does that mean the other side is OP and needs nerfs?
What about they win 90% of games? Does that mean they are OP and need nerfs?
Or do we actually look at their matches and determine why? If they're losing most matches because they play bad then those losses shouldn't be used as a means of balance. If they win most their matches but the survivors play really bad then that shouldn't be used to infer anything either.
What does matter for inferences is when we compare good vs good to objectively determine balance. Games where people are making many mistakes leaves room for improvement to change the outcome and is giving them agency. Players always need to feel they have agency in changing the games outcome. In good vs good matches there is very little agency for killers outside of tunneling someone out fast for most the killer roster.
I don't care about winning lots of matches against bad players making tons of mistakes. What I do care about is winning matches where it's good vs good players and I had a fair and balanced chance of winning without tunneling.
For you to win against players stacking medkits or bringing syringes you have to being playing vastly better than them, not just oh hey it's a tad more challenging. Playing vastly better isn't quite possible when you're at higher mmr since the skill ceiling is only so high on most killers. If you're winning most your matches at high mmr against top groups I'd say you're probably including a lot of tunneling or you're playing higher tier killers. I don't want tunneling to be apart of the games balance. 12 hooks games should be viable with m1 killers.
Rarely is it ever brown medkits in my games, it's usually at least yellows with yellow addons minimum with many greens/purples + addons. Most groups bring 1 CoH as well to stack with medkits.
You wouldn't want 5 matches of that in row yet that's the amount of swf's in high mmr that we're going against.
Of course you won't agree with any of this if we disagree on the high mmr premise to begin with.
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Yes, I do essentially think it's the same. - And while I can also see what you mean, I also do think that the only difference is the increase in loading screens (then again; depending on how long matchmaking / lobby refill takes I suppose the time difference might be neglible as well). But what's more disruptive is probably a rather subjective call in the end.
On the commitment: In my view that's something that only works if both sides operate on the same basic rules, namely that you get matched to a lobby and then play that match. But if the killer then gets to commit to a match based on what they see in lobby, yet a survivor doesn't "just because" (since they don't see what's in the lobby with them) then to me that doesn't ring right. In that sense I guess I consider lobby dodging the killer equivalent of running into the killer and immediately taking chances on hook; it's the penalty-free way of noping out of a match that you should be playing.
But instead of "delaying the point of commitment into the match itself" - how about solidifying lobby/a match being found as the "point of commitment". For both sides.
Someone suggested just loading straight into the match without the pre match lobby --- but in theory I suppose that is there so that solos can coordinate builds if they wish to --- and generally allowing people to switch to the builds they want for that match. So while I personally like the idea I don't think it's worth considering. --- But how about giving the "Leave" button in lobby the same treatment as the "Leave Match" button? You leave the lobby, you get a temporary matchmaking ban and have to wait it out before you can queue again. While I'm not a particularly big fan of punitive measures to address an issue I wouldn't necessarily look at it from a "punishment as incentive" perspective but a management perspective; people who very frequently dodge ruin a disproportionate amount of matches for other players so you would want as few of these people queuing at the same time as possible. And this is where the timeout comes in; simply manage the frequency of lobby dodging so that the remaining players have to deal with it less often. People who dodge/dc once in a blue moon for legitimate reasons would hardly notice the minute - while the damage lobby shoppers cause would be minimised for everyone.
sorry for the ramble. Nighttime brain is striking again0 -
I'd be fine with seeing nothing of the lobby as you're proposing if the game was balanced around swf and items were reigned in to be balanced (medkits specifically). I'd take that trade. However, if you made those changes people would for the most part stop lobby dodging anyway as that's the reason.
"But if the killer then gets to commit to a match based on what they see in lobby, yet a survivor doesn't "just because" (since they don't see what's in the lobby with them) then to me that doesn't ring right."
I see the double standard here you're referring to. However, the problem here is that there are way more unbalanced and unfair things on the survivor side than the killer side in my opinion as well as the prevalence of each. For example, apart from certain people just disliking specific killers (which isn't really a balance thing), the only things survivors would view as over tuned is maybe a couple killers and a few addons, there really isn't much. Most the issues survivors have is with the play styles in the match itself. Most the killers issues are swf (extremely common at higher mmr), items (extremely prevalent), and some of their meta perks (extremely prevalent). All mostly visible things in lobby essentially.
Somewhat of an apples and oranges comparison I guess is my point.
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I feel if people frequently dodge then they really need to stop pointing the finger about bad SBMM. The devs have said before that the game will match you with opponents that you have the capacity to beat 50% of the time. That means that the game is designed for you to have challenging opponents at times, and it's designed for you to lose at times. Constantly dodging because you want to avoid those times you lose is just gonna wind up keeping you in MMR limbo, where the game will just give you whoever has been waiting the longest.
And it's also worth noting that your MMR won't increase unless you beat opponents with a higher MMR than you (per the devs also). Beating weaker opponents over and over isn't gonna send you into high MMR, it'll just keep you where you are. And if you're not happy with where you are, then too bad. You're not going anywhere.
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I don't play survivor much, but I see survivors constantly dip out of lobbies as killer.
Maybe they are dodging the low prestige survivors in the lobby? idk, but I usually end up staying even if it means I end up bullying a 100 hour default Bill. I just don't want to sit through matchmaking again lol
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I would never hold it against anyone leaving matches due to demonstrated connection issues. I am painfully aware of them too, and being on console seems to make them even worse.
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Not to me, and I hopefully not a more common thing as the playerbase slowly slips away.
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So you are intentionally creating unbalanced matches cause you don't want unbalanced matches?
Please tell me you can see the irony in that
have you concidert that maybe the reason you are getting the unbalanced swf 4 medkit deadsquad is because another killer had the same thought process as you before?
How do you expect the balance team to do their job if we continue to screw with what they are doing?
That's like complaining a restaurant got your order wrong when everybody purposfully takes the wrong order
This threat is a real eye opener. Hope the devs see this and do something about it. Either punish lobby shopping or just disband the entire lobby if someone leaves.
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I think survivors do dodge because of newer players or lower prestige. I don't see much lobby dodging at all when playing survivor on Switch (2 years in) but I recently moved to playing survivor on the PS5 as well and have team mates dodging. I'm focusing on getting all survivors to P1 on the PS5 to unlock all perks, and I'm getting matched with folks in the P10s and P20s a fair bit now and they dodge. But I have 2 years experience behind me and hold my own just fine, so it's a bit silly. Prestige doesn't give the full picture.
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"So you are intentionally creating unbalanced matches cause you don't want unbalanced matches?"
You want someone to suffer an unbalanced match instead of a random person they don't know?
"Please tell me you can see the irony in that"
I find it pretty weird that instead of focusing on the source of the problem (balance issues), you instead blame the people having to deal with it.
"have you concidert that maybe the reason you are getting the unbalanced swf 4 medkit deadsquad is because another killer had the same thought process as you before?"
And I see zero issue with them doing that. Why would I blame them for that? That's illogical.
"That's like complaining a restaurant got your order wrong when everybody purposfully takes the wrong order"
That is a terrible analogy and not at all what is going on. A better one would be blaming a customer for sending back an order that was raw and inedible instead of blaming the source of the problem which is the cook who made it.
"This threat is a real eye opener. Hope the devs see this and do something about it. Either punish lobby shopping or just disband the entire lobby if someone leaves."
Hopefully this issue opens their eyes to the heavy balance problems and gets them fixed. You're too focused on solving the symptom rather than the sickness itself.
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I don't believe the game is as imbalanced as you think it is, can you really say the game is imbalanced when we throw all matchmaking out of the window.
That 4 medkit swf team might just be a fair match against the 4 slowdown perk nurse or alchemy ring blight.
Ofcourse when they decide to dip out and mid mmr trapper main gets those survivors he'll get destroyed. But you can't really say that's because the game at it's core is horribly unbalanced when we screw with who faces what
And even if the game is as badly balanced as you say it is this lobby dodging prevents it from being balanced properly
It works the other way around too, a low mmr player might see a survivor team with 4 brown medkits and leaves, then those low mmr survivors suddenly face a high mmr onryo, she obviously destroyes them and if that happens regulary (which judging by this thread and it's responses isn't a bold claim) then it appears sadeko is doing allright at higher levels and won't recieve buffs.
One thing that i do agree on that it's not really the players fault that they don't want to face matches that are way above what they can do.
The whole backfill system needs to either be way more strict and not favor speed over accuracy as much or there needs to be something that prevents it to be messed with so much
Sorry but you can't claim a game is unbalanced when the playerbase knowingly screws with that balance
You can't cure the sickness if the symptoms could very well be false
There is zero reason to defend how it works now, it's in the favor of everyone that matchmaking works as well as it can.
I can't believe you enjoy dodging lobbies, you would want to get matches that are in your skill level right away right?
This post is not to accuse people who lobbydodge much but to bring attention to how harmfull it might be to do so
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I can only comment from my experience and that hasn't been the case from my trials.
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I can only comment from my experience and that has never felt to be the case. Besides, the amount of killers/survivors who are available within the mmr who play every day in each region must be massive enough to deal with that.
Lobby dodging isn't an issue for me. It's the way people play in trials to deliberately affect their mmr that's the main problem. From my experience, this is far more common.
Unfortunately, until people grow up, this will continue to happen.
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Fair that you can only comment from your experience but you are only one person.
There is plenty of evidence of the matchmaking really screwing up matching by matching new players vs 2k+ hour players and it seems to point that lobby dodging affects this.
It would honestly help if a mod or dev could add some clarity to the situation. Only they know just how much it actually affects things.
We can only speculate based on the info we have after all
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You almost seem reasonable, so I'll share.
Killers dodge lobbies for the same reason survivors dodge lobbies OR kill themselves on hooks.
The player does not want to deal with the situation they perceive is being presented.
For example:
See what you assume is a SWF 4 in lobby.
Do not want the headache right now.
Dodge lobby.
You have a huge amount of killer hours, you can fill in a thousand more understandable scenarios where a killer might dodge.
From a survivor side:
My solo queue team mate gets downed in 10 seconds.
I rush at the killer and T-bag in his face until he hooks me.
I suicide on hook and go to next match.
I'm sure you can fill in another book full of situations that would make the above occur.
The guy you quoted said balance issues are the reason, maybe that is correct. BUT WHO CARES?
its the perception of balance issues that motivate the above behaviors. I agree that where there is smoke there is usually a fire, but it doesn't matter. Perception of imbalance would still lead people to do the above.
As for Blight and OP add-ons and every situation like this, not everyone WANTS to play like that at the moment, so they lobby shop or suicide on hook or bow out of the match early.
It seems easy to just force players especially killers to take what MMR hands them, and it is an easy fix.
But its fixing the wrong thing. Its fixing the player to satisfy the other players who have had to wait a long time due to high prestige, item carrying or whatever people perceive as being indicative of an unfair advantage.
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I can only go on my personal experience here but while "a couple killers and add-ons" is, compared to the total available killers and add-ons, indeed just a few.... they still make up the majority of what you see in matches from a certain point on*. Just like killers don't have an issue with items in general but with the few items with powerful add-ons that at some point are present in the majority of matches. Similarly people don't have an issue with swf but the playstyle that swf presumably entails.
I see the point about apples and oranges -- but it's maybe more like lemons and limes from my pov.
But yeah, for all I care balance around swf and certain items/add-ons. But also balance certain add-ons and certain killers. - Then we'd probably see both: less lobby dodging and less dc-ing/taking chances first hook.
*A bit of a tangent here but there are few things as discouraging and unfun as loading into a game with friends to have some fun and having fun loadouts (between the four of us one exhaustion perk, maybe another 2-3 meta perks total and the rest are fun perks we just want to try and pull off - think ftp wgfl, teamwork+bloodpact+speed boon, slippery meat+up the ante, ace in the hole appraisal, these kinda things. Hardly any items - and even if then it's usually just whatever is needed to be emptied for a challenge/ritual and thus add-onless brown) and getting P80+ killers and/or them bringing best add-ons or literal Hens and frens with their bazillion hours when they play their killers makes me stop playing for the day faster than any number of fc bubbas in a row could. This is where I can see where killers who dodge are coming from. If I could see the killer, the prestige and the add-ons and were to dodge, then the exact same things that make killers dodge would make me dodge.
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Wdym exactly? Survivors typically complain about camping and tunneling primarily. Are you implying that you play AI matches so you can tunnel the bots off hook?
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It's not necesarilly lobby dodging that's the problem. Like in your example if the player that dodges the 4 swf survivors gets other survivors that are roughly their skill level but with less items and idem for the swf 4 then there wouldn't be a problem.
Idealy the system shouldn't just widen it's range to the extreme levels it does now but i don't know how it works exactly, only the devs know and there could be a reason why they do it like this. Maybe the time it takes would be rediculously long if it didn't.
I agree that hiding the lobbies isn't exactly a perfect fix but it would help, it's hard to percieve unfair advantages when they aren't shown. And it's true that players could just throw the match in that case but atleast they would have to experience what they deem is unbalanced.
But it's true, it's not really the most ideal fix, just the easiest. And it would probably have some concequences with killers not being able to see items anymore so i don't see them actually removing the lobby
Also thanks! Almost reasonable is one of the nicest things i've been told here
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That's what I've been saying, except much more aggressively.
Like, I don't think MMR works well. However, maybe I'm wrong and it WOULD work well if lobby dodging and backfilling didn't happen every game.
If I could KNOW if I was backfilled in as Killer, I wouldn't try my ass off.
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The impact on match quality it seems to have when the lobby's revolving door has been used by a few players is so bad in my experience that I honestly wish it just re-queued me instead, or that I at least had that option + opting out of backfilling lobbies myself. I will happily take the extra wait if it reduces the probability of a predetermined cutscene trashfire of a match.
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I reallllly wish prestige was hidden until after the match. I've two p100 characters, Lisa/Cheryl and Claire. I love to play them but when I do, my friend and I sit there for so long in the lobby.
If it's not killers dodging for like 10 minutes, it's players getting impatient and dipping too. Then they think I'm some kind of god, I'm like no, I suck or sometimes I'm ok, depends lol.
Wish they'd just hide the number till after, would be so much better that way imho. 😊
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im a killer and i will stick to lobbys oh and i use lightborn occationally
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As people become more aware of backfilling, killers will end up dodging more. I know I do it, it's basically the only time I will routinely dodge a lobby, if I know I've been backfilled. And if I'm dodging a backfilled lobby, then that lobby had been dodged at least twice already, and is more likely to be dodged again. So it's like a chain reaction.
I don't have a solution, but you need to reduce the amount of primary lobby dodges. Why, other than backfilling, are killers dodging lobbies? Likely suspicion of SWF or "bad matchmaking", and the latter is itself probably due to a lack of understanding of backfilling.
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I have no genius solutions either. I do think just showing prestiges post-trial would help. I do not think there should be blind lobbies as the killer should be able to adjust loadouts as they see fit.
However I'm torn on the last minute surv swapping, as with prestiges currently being shown it is the only way to not be dodged, but the nefarious swapping to all flashlights or same skins or whatever shouldn't be happening either.
The bottom line is we are actively making matchmaking worse with all the dodging, very much doing it to ourselves & knowingly screwing over others.
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Imagine how much time would be saved if people would just suck it up and play the lobby they are given. DBD players are so soft lmao. Oh no they have high prestige, better dodge 🙄
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Stop with the outrage. This game is completely unbalanced in favor of survivors if they know what they’re doing. Why would anyone want to play against that? Don’t give me the “get better” line. There isn’t much to improve on with most killers.
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I wanna play as my P100 Leon sometimes, but I’ll have to last second switch so many times cuz I don’t like loading in like that, cuz usually it’s a sweaty Blight or Spirit who BM’s me when they down me or do that cringe ‘hump tech’. Even when I enter a lobby with my P42 David or P25 Vittorio, Killers still dodge the lobby many times, i mean.. at this point everyone should be that high with prestige levels right? Killers have to stop thinking high prestige levels are high skilled players cuz I play for fun and don’t sweat at all and it’s frustrating getting BMed for investing a lot of BP in a survivor and thinking I’m toxic for last second switching. Like bro, stop being an coward and don’t farm on prestige 2-3 survivors
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If I'm trying to learn a killer I will usually dodge a few times to get a less kitted out group of survivors. Mainly flashlights and toolboxes are what make me dodge when learning a new killer. Like I want to have a game where I'm not getting absolutely hammered on while trying to get a handle on the killer. Usually it doesn't help though and I just have to run lightborn or franklin's which I don't always want to do first thing on a killer I haven't really had a chance to experiment with partial builds on.
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