http://dbd.game/killswitch
No, increasing survivors' objective time would not decrease tunneling! (and that's fine)
A lot of people argue that the only reason killers tunnel is that survivors complete objectives too fast. In this argument, tunneling is the most effective strategy a killer can employ, and the only one powerful enough to allow killers to win games against (whatever tools are allowing survivors to finish gens so quickly). If only survivors had to spend more time working on objectives before the game ends, the argument goes, then killers wouldn't use the strategy.
Here's the problem, though. If all you change is how fast survivors do generators, and you aren't changing how effective tunneling is, tunneling is still the most effective strategy and killers who want to win will still tunnel. In fact, increasing gen speed makes tunneling more effective.It can basically boil down to the following:
Expectation: "As a killer player, now that the gen speed is nerfed, I don't have to worry about gen rushers so much. I'll take my time chasing all the different survivors."
Reality: "As a killer player, I want to win. Now that the gen speed is nerfed, I have even more time to tunnel one player out of the game and make it a 1v3."
I personally enjoy getting tunneled most of the time (chases are fun) but it absolutely baffles me why someone would argue that making gens take longer would reduce tunneling when it makes the strategy even more effective.
Comments
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I’m down for making tunneling less effective if we make it less necessary and slow the game down.
That said, I vehemently disagree with the notion that the main reason killers tunnel is because it’s the easiest route to winning. Do many do this? Of course. But I do not think that it is even remotely the majority. The majority that tunnel do so because they feel it’s necessary and would do it way less if the game was better balanced.
So while I am in favor of making tunneling more difficult I do hypothetically in this scenario think that if you had solely added more objectives for survivors you would indeed see a massive decrease in tunneling even though some would still do it.
This is the crux of the controversial topic though. Some people think the majority of tunneling is because it’s easy and some think the majority is because of how unbalanced the game is making it necessary in many games.
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True.
As the game is right now, plenty of killers complaining about games being too difficult and who feel forced to tunnel to keep their winrate up are just... above their comfort zone mmr-wise. They would do excellent without tunneling if they accepted a few losses and to remain in their comfort bracket.
Slowing down the game more, I fear, won't change anything. Those players will rise in mmr again as their current opponents get hit with the nerf and struggle a little bit in the first few weeks, now killer hits uncomfy zone again, and feel like they need to tunnel to keep their winrate high again.
Back to square 1, except now survivors feel like they need to bring busted stuff to have a chance, which in turns makes tunneling feel even more necessary.
Like it happened before with the 90s gens.
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In my opinion, I feel that BHVR making the win Conditions for both sides as escapes and kills should be changed.
Chases are more fun for survivors. Getting more hooks as killer makes you feel good as it shows your doing well in the chases.
Make the game more about hooks and chases / helping your team. I feel that while it would not take away camping, tunneling, gen rushing completely. I do feel It would help make the game more fun.
Remember, win and lose with dignity.
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It won’t directly effect tunneling but it will indirectly effect it.
also why punish killers instead of encouraging them to not tunnel. If the devs gave a better reason to not tunnel other than someone’s feelings, we would do it
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But tunneling is still the best way to guarantee a 12 hook game. If one survivor is dead, you have more time to get the last 9 hook stages.
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Yes that's why I tunnel it gives +2 pips if you win and it best stragedy for that. Even if you lose get 1-2 kills you still should get safety pip. But winning 4vs1 without tunneling and getting 12 hooks is lot more skillful and fun. But not the most efficient play.
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I think you might have misunderstood my post - I didn't say "easiest," I said "most effective," meaning it's the strategy that shifts the odds in favor of the killer more than any other strategy does (regardless of ease of execution).
That 100% tracks with you saying that killers feel like it's necessary to tunnel to win - If killers feel it's necessary to tunnel in order to win, they think it's the only strategy that is effective enough to shift the odds in their favor.
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If gen speed was nerfed, it would have to include more strict anti tunnel mechanics or it wouldn't work out.
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There's quite a bit difference in ending the game with 0 kills and having a game end in a 2K.
The major problem right now is that if you try to play nice and spread out hooks, you are far more likely to end with 0 kills assuming the skill level of everyone is roughly equal. This is because even if you start a chase after hooking a survivor, there's still going to be at least 1 survivor working on a gen, because there's still a free survivor to go for the unhook and heal. Meaning that by spreading hooks, gens will still get done.
It isn't until you kill a survivor where the scales get tipped in the favor of the killer where it's easier to keep survivors off gens since there's no free survivor who can just stay on a gen.
This is why tunneling is becoming more common. There's no advantage to spreading hooks and ending the game with no kills feel bad. Even if you don't want to hardcore tunnel someone out of the game, you are still best focusing your early hooks between no more than 2 survivors. Which still results in forcing someone out early.
If tunneling were to be addressed, you have to first target the core issue and that is spreading hooks is objectively the worst play. Give some base-kit reward to killers who hook multiple different survivors in a row. This won't end tunneling, but it'll allow you to make changes that target tunneling as there's a valid alternative to tunneling a survivor out of the game.
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The game, literally mathematically speaking, cannot be won by a killer without tunneling.
Now, i personally would much rather have a game where tunneling (and camping too) is not just discouraged, but literally impossible from a game mechanics perspective, while making it so these things aren't required to win the game (from a math perspective)
BHVR says they balance the game around 45 second chases, which in theory means, if every chase was 45 seconds, it would be a draw. So lets assume that you want to 12 hook all survivors, and not "tunnel" anyone out of the game, and assume those 45 second chases.
Killer and survivors spawn on opposite ends of the map. Most killers will take around 15 seconds to walk to the other part of the map and start a chase.
Generator progress:
1: 15 seconds
2: 15 seconds
3: 15 seconds
4: 15 seconds
5: 0 seconds
Hook Progress:
1: 0 hooks
2: 0 hooks
3: 0 hooks
4: 0 hooks
Now the killer starts a chase that lasts 45 seconds and downs the survivor. Picking them up takes 3 seconds, walking them to a hook takes ~8 seconds (a full wiggle is 16 seconds, so lets assume in the middle) and 1.5 seconds to hook them. This means that first hook took 45 + 3 + 8 + 1.5 = 57.5 seconds
Generator progress:
1: 72.5 seconds
2: 72.5 seconds
3: 72.5 seconds
4: 15 seconds
5: 0 seconds
Hook Progress:
1: 1 hook
2: 0 hooks
3: 0 hooks
4: 0 hooks
Now it probably takes the killer another 10-15 seconds to find the next survivor and start a chase with them, while 1 survivor starts running for the save, and lets say they also heal their friend for the full 16 seconds (meaning lets say it takes 45 seconds to unhook the survivor and heal them). After 45 seconds of the second chase, 1 survivor on hook, 1 survivor saving the hooked one, and 1 on gens you have:
Generator progress:
1: complete
2: complete
3: complete
4: 15 seconds
5: 0 seconds
Hook Progress:
1: 1 hook
2: 1 hook
3: 0 hooks
4: 0 hooks
Now, every chase, hook and down will take 57.5 seconds, and during this time, a single survivor is on a generator. So for the next chase you have:
Generator progress:
1: complete
2: complete
3: complete
4: 72.5 seconds
5: 0 seconds
Hook Progress:
1: 1 hook
2: 1 hook
3: 1 hooks
4: 0 hooks
and then the next
Generator progress:
1: complete
2: complete
3: complete
4: complete
5: 0 seconds
Hook Progress:
1: 1 hook
2: 1 hook
3: 1 hooks
4: 1 hooks
and then you get 2 more hooks before the last gen is completed.
This gives you 6 hooks for the 5 gens done. But you haven't killed anyone because you intentionally didn't tunnel. Yet BHVR themselves have stated the following facts:
- Getting kills is winning, hooks don't matter, if you get 9 hooks killing 1 survivor, you still lose
- 45 second chases is what they balance around, so if every chase lasted 45 seconds, the game should end in a draw: "2 kills, 2 escapes"
This proves that if you don't tunnel, or try to eliminate someone early, by the very state the game is balanced around, then you cannot draw the game.
This is also obviously in a vacuum as not every chase lasts 45 seconds, some last shorter, some are longer. But this is the number the BALANCE the game around. Thus if the game were BALANCED then the goal would be 2 escapes 2 kills being a draw. But if you don't eliminate someone early, you cannot draw the game.
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Why can’t things just remain the way they are? Giving survivors more to do or slowing them down isn’t going to stop tunneling—that’s madness. So rather than trying to change things & inevitably making them worse, it’s best if tunneling is left in this semi-tolerable state.
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That's true. And that's why it's normal to have a couple of gens pop during the first chase. But some people do very well by spreading out hooks. Some would say it's even normal gameplay. Sure getting 0 kills feels discouraging, but so does not escaping 10 games in a row, yet people cope. If some killers accepted a few losses and a few draws now and again, by keeping to their usual playstyle and perks, their mmr would stay at a bracket where their usual strategy works. They would not need to tunnel. Sure, it would be more efficient, but at some point, if people are tunneling and not able to keep up with survivors in front of them, it's kind of on them for pushing matchmaking to give them better opponents by doubling down when things get rough.
At least, that's my opinion, and I respect yours. I just don't see mine budging, is all.
All this math is impressive, and I commend you for writing all of it. But I can't help being a bit skeptical.
You calculated all of that by keeping in mind that average chase time is balanced for 45s, admitting that it can take more or less.
But since you're calculating average killer efficiency, then the survivor efficiency should also be calculated on average, and not with maximum efficiency in mind.
You took into account :
- All survivors on different gens : people usually group up, especially on their first gen, making them at least 15% less efficient.
- No travel time between generators : Especially as gens pop and gens left to do get scarcer, the survivors don't have an innate instinct of where the next gen is, there is usually a decent amount of running around trying to find the next one, especially on interior maps or darker maps where gens get more difficult to find. Plus not always running, since you don't want to catch the attention of the killer if they're in between chase, or take the risk of killer switching to you if you're an already identified weaker looper.
- No secondary objectives done : In your calculation, no survivor opens any chests, boons/cleanses any totems. That is not the average survivor behavior.
I'd say that a lot of killers have a built-in slowdown or a mechanic that ends chases quicker, but since there's no way to make an average of that I'll leave it out.
But yeah, in calculations, one side should not be calculated as perfectly average and the other as perfectly efficient. It mechanically tips interpretation.
As I said with the previous message, I respect your opinions and the effort you put in furthering your argument, but I'm still not really convinced. And I don't think I will easily either, so you don't have to invest more time in changing my mind.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think killer is easy peasy either, but I just think the necessity of tunneling is exaggerated, and would genuinely hate if there were to be general survivor objectives nerfs to "incentive not tunneling" with no disincentives to it. I think if there is a problem with survivor efficiency, it's mostly at higher mmrs and comes from higher rarity items which I would not mind retiring or reworking. But making gens take eons is not the solution in my books.
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This is indeed the fix. Make win conditions number of hooks for killers and some combination of gens+chase+saves for survivors. Eliminate kills and escapes from the equation. Maybe even add a second objective. Like making it so killer can perma destroy gens and then survs have to make a weapon to fight the killer (like in HSH).
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There are so many things wrong with this
First of all, when did they ever say they balance the game around 45 second chases??? Also if you're average chase time is that long, that's an issue.
Second of all, you can't boil things down to math since there are SO many variables. From perks, to add ons, to what killer being played, to maps, to map generation and even more.
And lastly, this is assuming the killer mindlessly chases the Survivor until they get a down and hook. Which doesn't take into consideration a killer intentionally chasing a Survivor off a gen, or just doing the smart thing in the large majority of cases which is dropping chase. Its such an essential part of playing killer yet no one seems to acknowledge it for what ever reason. Splitting pressure between Survivors is one of the best ways to slow the game down, and it enables you to achieve much better snowball potential later in the game
Your last little bit also seems to go off of MMR and I must ask. Why do you care about a number that you can't even see? There is quite literally 0 reason as to why anyone would want to increase it. Even then this whole thing doesn't make sense since Tunneling to turn the game into a 3v1 as fast as possible only works against inexperienced Survivors, which just inflates your MMR and gets you into even more unfavorable matches. The only time it really works against experienced survivors, is if you recognize a Survivor is running into a bad area of the map once they're unhooked or they do a major screw up.
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What i'm saying is, this would be "fair" based on what survivors think, right? You chase 1 guy, hook a guy, and leave them alone to get saved.
Also, they didn't officially state it anywhere written, it was said on a dev's twitch stream that they balance the game around 45 second chases.
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For this to work, long chases would need to become a thing of the past, because no killer is going to go into an extended chase if two gens are going to pop because of it. This would require less safe pallets, and more mind gameable loops. In a 1v1 situation, the survivor should always be at the disadvantage. Otherwise, the killer isn't the power role, but instead an equal in that chase
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Survivors who think that way are simply entitled, its as simple as that. Majority of people realize that doing unfun things is necessary in some cases unless you're intentionally throwing the game.
Guy, I've been been playing for 6 years, have watched every single dev stream in between that. Nothing of the sort has ever been said and thats further proven by the fact you're the only person I've ever seen mentioning it
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This is the point i'm making. People don't like getting tunneled (mostly) and killers don't like being forced to tunnel (mostly) so why not remove it and make it no longer required? Would make more people happy.
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In like 99% of cases, if you're "forced" to tunnel its because you made mistakes that lead you there
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Just gonna leave this here.
(The "that" in the first sentence refers to adding more objectives for survivors.)
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So when three generators pop in three minutes while the killer chases the first survivor they found in the match, what mistake did the killer make?
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Try 2 minutes. By the time you find the first survivor and start chasing. Remember, if the chase takes 45 seconds, what they balance around, finding a survivor is easily going to take you 20 seconds just to cross the map, then probably another 5-10 to at least spot someone. Then remember it takes ~8 seconds to walk to a hook, 3 seconds to pick them up and 1.5 seconds to hook. 20 + 10 + 45 + 8 +3 + 1.5 = 87.5 seconds
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Playing killer I guess
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I believe that's true.
If we increase gen times, Killers will either tunnel the same amount or tunnel more.
Most people tunnel because it's easy and effective. Some people know it's a good strategy, but most people don't care about that. They want to win and they know that this is the easiest and most efficient way to do that.
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I would say average chase is 45 second long. If we include hooking time, the total time needed for a killer to get 1 hook is 60 seconds. If we include finding and walking time, this is easily +30 seconds especially if killer has no tracking perks.
If your counting tracking and walking time, you have to consider survivor healing time. Healing time is 16 seconds. If two injured survivor heal other. 16+16 is 32 seconds. 32 seconds is roughly the time that a killer takes to find survivors and walk to generators.
60 second per hook is too slow for killers in relation to gen-time. The gen-time in 4vs1 is balanced around 30 second chases. 30 second chases is very unrealistic for just about every killer. that is why spreading hook is too unrealistic in current version of dbd because 30 second average chase time for killers requires killer to be massively outperform the survivor. The survivor has to play worst possible game and the killer has to play the best with virtually zero errors. Just not very realistic in my opinion.
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But necessary for what? Only for a 4k, or for any kills at all? A 4k is a straigt win for the killer, but not a balanced result, but most killers will always try to get the 4k, and thus, tunnel.
Lets say you can get a 2k easily without tunneling (which i think is the state of the game actually). Them people would still tunnel to get the 4k.
So making tunneling not necessary for a 4k means killers get the 4k anyway. Why should survivors play at that point?
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To fix tunneling the killer need to get somthing for hooking differend survivors. Old BBQ for example was a great way to get the killers to not tunnel, but the devs wouldnt change BBQ back to its origial so the killer should get a litle bit of slowndown for hooking diffrend survivors, but if a surv dies to early the other survivors get a boost to genspeed, that gets lower when more gens ar done
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over committing the first chase
you are giving 1 survivor the available resources meant to be distributed amongst all 4 of them. These gens dont pop instantly either, theyre a minute and a half
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No, it would. Right now if you want to win, your only choice is to tunnel and camp. NO OTHER OPTIONS, except if you nurse/blight and down 4 survs first minute of course.
But! if you increase objective timer, and there'd be option to not tunnel/camp and still get -4, i bet amount of those dirty tactics will be reduced. But of course you just can't remove it completely(except giving last hooked survivor imunnity to hooks, but that'd be too much).
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It really isn't your only choice to win.
It's just the easiest way to win.
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it really is, if you play against equal skill SWF. And if you say otherwise, then either you're survivor main trying to be salty, or game matches you against lower skill players.
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Most players are bad, yes, even those SWF's. You do not need to tunnel them.
Tunneling is easy, I get it. You just want to hop on and have fun, not actually try.
In some matches, yes, you will need to tunnel. Thankfully, those matches are few and far between. Most people use tunneling as a crutch for a lack of skill in other areas.
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You don't get how mmr system works, most players are bad indeed, they're in low mmr zone which you wil leave soon enough. But after that you get matched against high mmr players who all spend at least 2-3 hours in game every day, hell i see people with more then 1000 hours in my every game.
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1000 hours isn't a lot of time in DBD.
It is a little cute that you think the MMR system works that well.
These "high mmr" players you claim to see? They probably aren't actually very good. It's likely that you just haven't quite gotten to their level yet.
Now, the competitive teams that I've had the pleasure of playing against in small tournaments, they've forced me to tunnel or proxy. That's at the literally highest end of DBD though, you won't find them often, if it all, in pubs.
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If you struggle that badly, they're not an equal skill swiffer, they're above your skill level.
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Maybe, not a problem for me to admit it, but why game continue to put me against them? How can you explain that?
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Setting aside the 'no other choice but tunneling' crap since someone is already addressing that...
We already know that this exact argument does not work. At all.
They did this in 6.1. They added 10 extra seconds per generator base kit in addition to a host of other global killer buffs to reduce chase times. Even added base kit BT as an anti tunneling measure for icing on the cake, just in case.
Tunneling got worse. It always will when survivor objectives get longer to complete, because it's still easier to get one person out of the game than to juggle 4 survivors.
Stop pushing for a 'solution' that has already been tried and did the exact opposite of 'combatting tunneling'.
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True. Killers that want to tunnel will tunnel regardless of whether they 'need' to or not. Increasing gen times just makes tunnelling stronger.
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If you tunnel to give yourself an extra edge to win, then the MMR will adjust accordingly. Remember, the MMR cares about literally nothing except which survivors you take down.
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solution to tunneling it's not giving survivors 943141233123 seconds of endurance after unhook, it's just a buff to survivor. Also i will remind you 99% of time this endurance DOES NOT PREVENT TUNNELING, it's used by survivors to BODYBLOCK KILLER. And why not to tunnel survivor who boldly blocks you from giving a hit and chasing another survivor? It's his fault that he blocks you instead of running away, after all.
To reduce tunneling, killer should BENEFIT from not tunneling. Like basekit grim embrace. Right now it's not like killer gets any benefits for not tunneling/camping, except bloodpoints, but who cares.
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Because theres such a thing as inflating your MMR by using tactics and strategies that inexperienced players have a tough time dealing with, but become less and less of an issue the higher up you go
This goes for basically any game, not just DbD
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In the case youre bringing up here, the Survivor bodyblocking should expect nothing other than getting tunneled.
And there isnt an issue with that
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1000 it's a lot time spent in a single videogame, if anyone says otherwise they're clearly not ok. if MMR system doesn't work, shouldn't they focus on fixing it so killers get matches which they can win without dirty strats?
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It would decrease it, a bit. Personally as killer I only tunnel/facecamp if I'm being genrushed. Of course there are certain players who will donit at 5 gens after someone's DC'd you'll never stop it entirely. But you definitely need to bring in a few killer nerfs if gen times took longer. Remember high mmr is survivor sided but low/mid mmr is very easy for killer,no need to make it easier.
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Are you ok? I only stated the fact that they added base kit BT in 6.1 and you exploded in a rant of things I never said, claimed, or even implied.
I'm convinced the only way to reduce tunneling is to make it a less efficient way to play. We seem to agree on that.
That isn't done by increasing gen times, buffing killers directly, or nerfing survivors directly. It can only be a change to the core gameplay and I'm not certain the devs are interested in making changes to things that would actually make an impact.
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Eh, not really. I've got 5K and I'm still not even close to the most on my friends list for DBD.
You CAN win most of your games without tunneling. If you can't, then there are other aspects of your gameplay that you need to improve on, most likely.
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i understand that you and your friends really like this game, but saying that 1000h isn't a lot just stupid and crazy.
Also at this point i think we need to specify what "win" means for you. For me it's sacrificing all 4 survs.
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"but most killers will always try to get the 4k, and thus, tunnel."
I disagree. Just because they want a 4k doesn't mean they're always going to tunnel.
"Lets say you can get a 2k easily without tunneling (which i think is the state of the game actually). Them people would still tunnel to get the 4k."
You are only getting a 2k "easily" in the current state of the game if you're going against potatoes at low mmr or you're tunneling. I want the game balanced around a 2k without tunneling and playing fairly against equally skilled high mmr swf.
"So making tunneling not necessary for a 4k means killers get the 4k anyway. Why should survivors play at that point?"
No, it does not. If you made the changes I talked about I would also want more measures in place to make tunneling way, way harder and less efficient to do. Your statement is very hyperbolic.
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A minute and a half at base. Account for toolboxes, Brand New Parts, and perks.
Let's say it takes the killer roughly 30 seconds to find a survivor from the start of the match, if they're lucky, or 1 minute if they're not. They then chase that survivor for 2 minutes because there's pallets and loops everywhere ready to go so getting a quick and easy down isn't feasible outside of severe survivor error. 3 generators are lost in this time.
If that's over-committing, then I'll admit I have no idea how killer is supposed to be played. But however it is supposed to be played, it doesn't sound fun to me.
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You’ve likely never seen all the killer posts on here that fully admit that tunneling is the easiest way to win because it makes the game a 3v1 immediately.
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