For those of you who hate dead hard because of the extra health state
I’m curious… you believe dead hard is unfair because it grants the survivor an extra health state correct? That’s what I’ve seen the majority of killer players say is the issue with it.
If that’s the case, do you also think it’s fair for killers to have perks/add-ons that give them the ability to insta-down survivors? I mean that essentially gives the killer the power to deny the survivor a health state. I’m talking about things like starstruck (if you get hit with starstruck on you, instant down) huntresses IRI heads that instantly down survivors, trappers add-on that is instantly downs a survivor who hit their trap, and then of course bubba and billy with their chainsaws, just to name a few examples.
Im curious how it’s seen as fair for killers to have these abilities that deny a health state but it’s not fair for survivors to have a perk that (IF they use it juuuust right) gives them an extra health state.
This isn’t an argument about the different between perks, add-ons or just basekit abilities. This is literally just asking about how it’s fair to give the killer the ability to deny a health state but not fair for survivors to add an extra health state if they’re skilled enough to use the perk accurately, assuming no lag or latency issues.
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Majority of the expose status effects are conditional and their durations are limited. Meaning survivors can easily avoid the status condition or wait out the timer. Infact, this is stronger evidence for the upcoming DH nerf, because if killer ability to ignore health states are conditional and limited, then survivor ability to have a 3rd health state should also be conditional and limited. And Dead Hard is getting an actual condition to help limit the amount of times it can be used.
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But they’re not limited. There may be cooldown periods for some things but there’s no hard limit to how many times a bubba or a billy can use their chainsaws to insta down in a match. Starstruck can hit several times in a match. There's no limit to how many times huntress can use her hatches in a match or trappers traps. So limiting DH to one use (and keep in mind this is one use no matter whether it works or not) doesn’t feel on the same level. And let’s not even get to Myers infinite tier 3.
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This is something I’d love the devs to weigh in on should one of them see this post.
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Those are killer powers. Killer powers are generally stronger than any individual perk.
Look at perks like MYC or Starstruck that have very specfic conditions to apply a limited duration of expose on the survivor.
As for Huntress and Iri Head. I've never liked the addon, but it is at least very restricting to the huntress player by allowing them to only carry 1 single hatchet at a time and reloading after every single hatchet throw is a lot of wasted time.
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It basically boils down to the game being a 4v1. The 4 should not be adding health states since the extra time waste all of the other sides time where the 1 only ends one chase faster while the other 3 are not affected. Both are dealing with health state but are not created equally.
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Wait it out? Hm...
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Expose is a status effect that has a timer on it that survivors see on their screen. It is not the same as hoping the survivor in a chase presses e early.
Plus expose can be applied on survivors not currently in chase and the expose status duration isn't paused due to not being in chase either.
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you are comparing a collection of perks/addons that require effort, a time investment, or both on the user's part (with the exception of NOED and Haunted Grounds), to a perk that you, prior to the nerf, could activate at the press of a button whenever you weren't exhausted
Forgive me for failing to see the correlation
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Kinda agree honestly
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Press E to be exhausted on the ground
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I've never complained about DH, so maybe I'm the wrong person to answer here, but...
I believe Exposed is okay (for the most part), because all of the insta-downs in the game have been designed with Killer strength and weaknesses in mind.
Starstruck on Nurse was busted, because the perk didn't consider how easy it was for Nurse to make up lost ground. On everyone else, the perk acts more as a "clear the area" effect, than one used to secure insta-downs.
DH is more similar to Starstruck Nurse than say... Starstruck Legion, because it wasn't designed to consider how much time a killer really loses when they need to injure every survivor 3 times per down.
When you look at Billy, Bubba, Myers, Skull Merchant, etc. they are designed with weaknesses, due to insta-down being their main threat. Dead Hard's only real weakness is latency, and that's not by design.
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dead hard is not about its extra health-state, but actual time it wastes from the killer. You see, if a killer on average hooks a survivor team 8 times per match. That means he has to face at least 8 dead hard per trial. that is 8 potencial extra health-states. 8 potencial extra health-states is a lot of slowdown on killer objective.
the new chapter is attempting to limit the amount of slowdown that survivor can stack against the killer. By limiting DH and Healing, their aim is to reduce the prevalence of second chancing from survivor. They are doing same thing with killer. They're nerfing all regression perks with aim to prevent killer from stacking generator regression. Its not so much about instant down as much as it is related to slowdown towards killer objective of hooking.
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I’m not speaking about the DH for distance nerf. I’m talking about the current DH that cannot simply be activated by “pressing a button” it actually requires skill and perfect timing to execute correctly. And again, even IF you do that you can still have it not work correctly due to killer lag or server latency issues, neither of which is under the survivors control.
This constant propaganda of DH being “just press a button” really needs to stop. It’s clearly more complicated than that.
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Yeah, sit there looking dumb and eat unnecessary pallets when you should've gotten the down even though they don't even have the perk
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Now this makes more sense. I still think limiting DH to one use per match whether it works or not is unfair, but I can see the overall logic. Also this assumes that every survivor is going to run DH and all of them will always be successful with it, and outside of high MMR swfs I’ve not seen any evidence of this being a common occurrence.
Personally I think it should be one SUCCESSFUL use per match (which they actually had originally in the PTB notes but removed) because as I said, DH failures happen all the time due to killer sided lag or DBD server latency which shouldn’t count against the survivor trying to use the perk.
I personally don’t see the issue in allowing it to be one successful use. If you land it, then you get your one dead hard. If you don’t, yes you get to try again but that still means you’re going down and getting a hook anyway.
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Fun fact, Dead Hard being "just press a button" is not propaganda, it's factual, just as "Sprint Burst is a button away" or "Lithe is a window or pallet away" are factual, ignoring the server/latency problems, Dead Hard is always going to be a button press away from activating once you are injured, whether you succeed in triggering it or not
On a different note, successfully triggering Dead Hard is not skill-based, it's timing-based, it does not take skill to press a button when you think the killer will hit you, it does, however, require good timing and knowledge of what your opponent will do
Learn what words mean, because you might find that they mean something completely different to what you think they mean
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You see the difference is DH ALWAYS gets value even if you dont actually get hit during the endurance. Having the killer wait behind each survivor for 5 seconds even if they don't have dh just is the difference between a pain res proc and saving the gen. You could also look at it like giving someone more time to immerse into a position for a flashlight or pallet save which against a lot of M1's they can't afford to walk around looking for people after every down.
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Perks that allow instadowns all do it through Exposed which means it only works with basic attacks, preventing it from being too oppressive with certain killer powers (and this is why Nurse's blink attacks needed to be changed to special attacks). Since any perk can be used on any killer in the game, they all have to be balanced accordingly.
Killer powers that instadown have certain requirements and/or restrictions that make it fair. Bubba has his chainsaw, but that's the only thing he has and it has a charge time - a situation where you can m1 a survivor doesn't necessarily mean you can chainsaw them before they reach a window or pallet. Myers can instadown survivors in tier 3, but he has to work for it by stalking. Oni can instadown survivors in his power, but his power has limited availability and at all other times he is a basic m1 killer.
And this is basically the treatment Dead Hard is getting - since it now requires a safe unhook or self-unhook to activate and can only be used once per activation, it puts a hard limit on how many times it can be used in a match and completely removes it from the first chase of the game.
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Is knowing the timings for basic attacks, powers and accounting for latency NOT skill?
Is making a read on your opponent also not skill?
Forgive me, but I'm pretty sure that's called being skilled at the game.
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Most expose/ instant down effects are fine and only really a problem when camping.
Camping with huntress irl, pinky finger clown, bubba, infinite tier 3 Myers, etc. Such a cheesy cringe tactic.
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Dead Hard needs to go back to how it was. Forget the extra health states and hit-negation, I want something that gives consistent value. Keep the contingency of having to get an unhook first if you want, but I want a short bit of distance and I-frames back. Just change the animation to a dive roll so it doesn't look like a weird dab/dash and it'd be perfect. The way it is now is more problematic and annoying for all parties.
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I never understood why you could use it multiple times.
That was the most annoying for me. Chase - DH. Off the Hook - DH. (Heal) - new chase - DH. Everytime - that was awful.
The new animation and the white hits i think looks strange.
I am convinced people never complained that much if DH was a one time perk like Unbreakable from the start. And i would take this version with the distance again.
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You do know the DH for distance is the reason why it was nerfed in the first place.
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A few things.
1. DH is a health state on command. One shot addons and perks typically have some strict condition to fulfill first. MYC requires you to be far from the hook, let an unhook occur, and then you need to find that survivor and hit them within 60 seconds. Billy and Bubba need to charge their chainsaws, meaning they're neutered by windows. Either way, it's nowhere near as simple as "press button and get results."
2. The game is a 1v4. The killer needs to have advantages over the survivors to be a threat, or they'd be steamrolled by remotely competent survivors. We see this in the form of things like Bloodlust, the Entity Blocker, and the ability to bypass health states if certain conditions are fulfilled.
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that's the reason it was nerfed to start with. messed up a chase? no problem!! just press e and fly to that pallet! misjudged the distance to that window? no problem! press e and all your problems go away!!
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Why are you even comparing survivor perks with killer perks? They're nothing alike. You're comparing oranges with apples. The only thing DH and instadown killer perks have in common is that they're both stupid.
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I totally agree with you, there's nothing wrong with having a third health state in the game. DH has a very small window of use, if you time it wrong you get zero value.
I also find it funny that the problem with old DH according to killers was dead harding for distance and they were all celebrating when it was nerfed. Now that survivors have adapted the problem is the third health state.
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Ngl bro it still looks like a gamble of a perk when someones riding your back and the lunge is just free value. Even if there is some sort of skill it's very little for this already very little effort/skill game.
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On a different note, successfully triggering Dead Hard is not skill-based, it's timing-based, it does not take skill to press a button when you think the killer will hit you, it does, however, require good timing and knowledge of what your opponent will doLearn what words mean, because you might find that they mean something completely different to what you think they meanI was going to call this insulting and pedantic, but I think it's just wrong. The ability to time something correctly is a demonstration of skill. You're calling for someone to educate themselves about words, but you're the one who is incorrect.
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If I could activate a .5 second expose at will after performing a non-lunge attack? sure, I think they'd be comparable then
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Dead Hard lets you win a chase you should have lost.
Instadowns do not let you win a chase you lost.
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This post falls under one of the logical fallacies i forget which one its called tho
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what exactly can you do to a survivor who dead hards to a pallet? If you wait you get pallet stunned. And if you swing they get a boost and endurance. It’s a lose lose, it’s unfair
Post edited by Rizzo on4 -
Dead Hard is the most popular perk in the game while Exposed perks are rather niche, and there is a reason for that. Exposed effects all have a condition that must be met to activate that is just "run while injured". They also tend to have very lengthy cool-downs or very short durations that make them only work in very specific scenarios.
Dead Hard is getting a similar condition to insta-down perks, so it should be more inline with those now.
The only ones that don't have a condition are powers like Billy and Bubba, which are powers and so they don't need a ridiculous condition. And they have a charge up period. Imagine if Dead Hard had to charge up and played a very obvious animation as you were doing so.
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not to forget plague, which can take away a complete health state unless you are hiding the whole game.
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Devour Hope, the perk that requires the killer not to face camp... That's probably the perk that requires the most effort out of a killer ngl...
On a serious note though, there's no effort in Make Your Choice, Starstruck, Haunted Grounds or Iron Maiden.
Maybe Hubris or Dragon's Grip might require some investment, but then again killers generally run these two with synergetical perks that offset their downsides (Spirit Fury, Enduring, Brutal Strength, Overcharge, Pop Goes the Weasel, Nowhere to Hide, Call of Brine, etc.)
At least Dead Hard takes some skill as far as timing it goes... The afore mentioned perks take no effort at all, you're being delusional. In fact, I think NOED might be the one that takes the higher amount of skill, since there's a lot of decision making for the killer to do once it's lit.
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There is nothing wrong with a third health state....on all 4 survivors......every chase 😂😂
Also the problem is and always was the free chase extension without prerequisite conditions or real limitations..
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If we're comparing old DH to new DH the new one is actually worse for killers because it gives more distance.
Add on to that the hit negation which is clearly very triggering for killers because they feel that they're getting robbed of a hit on top of losing distance.
The only drawback with new DH is the timing is probably something like a 15% chance against a competent killer (unless you're on a pallet), whereas old DH if played right always had value unless you're in a dead zone.
I think bringing it back would be better for both sides.
Old DH was 100x more fun for survivors because there are so many ways to implement it for mind games outside of the intended use of dodging a hit. IMO it was less frustrating to deal with as killer too because you didn't have to deal with extra health states
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Orrrr gut the perk since waiting out dh regardless of how easy it is is simply poor perk design? Not a single person wants to just stand there until the survivor inevitably presses e and then downs them. It's boring to do 6-12 times a game.
Both old and new dh have the wait it out counter play while old dh also could get you to safety. Both variations are simply boring. I get it, it feels good to get off as a survivor when it happens but it's just so tedious. Watch any streamer play against it and look at how flat their expression and voice is when the say dead hard before it even happens.
Again from a balance perspective I really don't think it's op, but I get more fun playing around knight than playing around dh everygame and that's saying a lot.
The more experienced killers are simply tired of the perk after so long and the new killers or bad killers simply don't know how to play around it yet. Bad design.
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Try running expose perk and show us how you perform with that.
Make your choice, needs info perks to make it consistence.
All expose perk needs some info to make it worth running or else the duration will expire all the time.
Dead Hard - E
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In my very subjective opinion, i think it varies from instance to instance
Hard-Reading a non-lunge m1? Yeah, that's pretty skilled, especially if you can do it consistently
Hitting the E-Key when the killer is lunging or using their power? Eh, not really that skilled honestly
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extra health states would be fine - mettle of man and borrowed time come to mind - if it wasn't for the fact that generators go too fast.
chases are in a lot of ways one of the more exciting parts of dbd. so, making them take longer might make the game more fun for some. however, if generators are to remain the primary goal and ultimately the only team-oriented goal for survivors then... you can't have a free chase extender like deadhard. no matter how skill based it is.
might make more sense to have it be what it is currently on live servers if the game was truly team focused and things like repairing generators went faster if more people worked the same one rather than different ones.
the main thing is dbd has to have a solid game core. right now, it doesn't have that. so many things in the game overlap or are useless while others are just definitively better.
this is coming from someone that regularly uses exposed and killer executions. I will say this much - arguing against killers being more powerful than a solo survivor is pretty pointless. the killer has to be 4x more powerful than a single survivor. probably even more than that considering the effectiveness of communication. this game cannot be balanced on the core of "solo survivor" anymore.
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A wonderful combination of Faulty Premise, a dash of Ad Populism and a sprinkling of False Dichotomy.
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Any and all killer attacks are telegraphed in advance. DH's use isn't.
Reading something that is being telegraphed is considerably easier than something that isn't.
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I still miss the distance part of dead hard. You can take away that extra health state, just lemme rush forward to whatever or dodge a swing/shot.
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For me, it's more than it just feels completely random and unearned, and that this means you have to expect it on every single injured survivor regardless of whether or not they actually have it.
If you compared DH to other exhaustion perks, none of them are giving you an additional health state, they're helping you evade the killer and thus delaying losing one of your two default health states. That's very different.
Survivor perks that do give you extra health states are far more limited or have specific requisites, such as DS, Renewal, Deliverance (kinda), Unbreakable, Soul Guard, OTR, BT, Styptic, etc. They're either one-time use, or require very specific conditions, or both.
DH is an outlier, after all it didn't used to give you an extra health state, it used to be a physical dodge skill. You didn't tank a hit, you made the killer miss, and that's a very different thing. That said, I don't necessarily think tanking a hit is worse than evading one, and personally the old DH was worse than the current DH. But they both have similar issues with killer interaction.
Meanwhile however, you know when you've been exposed, you know when to expect exposed, and you can play around it. They're either very conditional perks that you can actively avoid or deny, or they're part of the killers power, which means that killer is giving up something in exchange and you already know to expect it when you see who the killer is. It's never unexpected.
It's the unexpected nature that paralyses you, just like Eruption before it was nerfed, just like old Hatch Standoffs, and kinda like current hook standoffs where you gamble on ping to secure a grab. Anything that mitigates these so that you're not playing this game of chicken with every survivor interaction is a benefit.
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Except all four survivors arent running it and/or landing it in every chase. I don’t even run the perk myself at all. The situation you’re describing is extremely rare IF it even happens at all.
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A lot of very good points have already been brought up in the replies here, but I think something that hasn't been addressed as much is that you're comparing a class of perks to one perk within a class.
Dead Hard and various Exposed perks do have a lot of things in common; except for killer powers like the chainsaw lads and Legion's fifth Feral Slash, and a few funky addons like the Iri Hatchet (which, side note, the Honing Stone doesn't count, that just takes you from injured to dying- the trap is the part that takes you from healthy to injured, so it is two separate sources of damage), they all work by inflicting the status effect "Exposed". This is similar to Dead Hard, which inflicts the status effect "Endurance".
The thing is, Endurance perks are a thing, and none of them are as complained about as Dead Hard. Survivors even have an Endurance addon, the Styptic Agent addon for the medkit. Futzing with health states is a very established mechanic on both sides with a dedicated status effect multiple things can apply, it's not just Dead Hard that gives the pseudo-health state of Endurance.
So, why is Dead Hard getting all the flak and not other Endurance, or even Exposed perks for that matter? Because they're all strictly limited either in number of uses (EG, Styptic Agent being single-use and consuming your medkit, or Off The Record only applying twice per game) or in applicability (EG, Endurance cancelling when you touch a generator). Dead Hard isn't necessarily different, it has its requirements and limitations, but there's no denying that it's far and away the most consistently useful and usable source of Endurance.
If an Exposed perk were as frequently activated and consistently useful as Dead Hard, I'd say that would be a problem. In fact, we basically saw that with Starstruck Nurse, and that was a big enough problem that Nurse had to be made incapable of using the Exposed effect at all. It's slightly different in that Exposed isn't equally useful across all killers - Nurse having access to it was nightmarishly OP, but something like infinite Tier 3 Myers is really only 'decent' all things considered - but the core of the idea is still the same. The status effect can be balanced, but not without serious restrictions.
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You claim that using Dead Hard successfully requires perfect timing, very high skill, and no interference from a whole slew of variables outside of your control to get to work. But you don't run the perk yourself at all? And you're saying that in your games, not that many survivors even run Dead Hard?
Do you play any killer? If you've got a high killrate, you'll see a lot of Dead Hard users as your MMR reaches the cap. Do you have a high MMR/escape rate on survivor? How comfortable are you in chase against M1 killers?
It's hard to explain why Dead Hard is considered broken and unfair compared to exposed without having an idea of your skill level.
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exposed perks are earned by downing or hooking survivors or kicking gens with the exception of noed. killers with exposed powers at base need to earn them too (stalking, drones) and all of the exposed statuses are extremely conditional and/or on a time limit (again, except noed, and devour, which is up to the survivors to get rid of). you get dh during the most crucial part of a chase, the end, where the killer SHOULD be able to down and hook you, pushing you further to death and getting closer to their goal. Instead, they hesitate at any moment where they can, being forced to hit at a pallet, giving survivors the ability to extend a chase and giving their friends more time on gens. What does the killer do? chase another person with 3 healthstates? they cant wait it out at pallets, so what can they do? dh is unavoidable, while you can LITERALLY wait out exposed statuses (minus the hexs i mentioned before) because it tells you how long youre exposed most of the time.
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