Killer gen regression not supposed to be ran?
Every time killers run a gen regression perk it gets nerfed. First it was ruin/pop/corruption, nerfed to the ground. Then erruption, nerfed to the ground. Now pain res, call of brine and overcharge, nerfed to the ground. So are killers not supposed to run any slowdown perks because obviously something new will have to become meta and it will get nerfed to the ground with nothing to replace it.
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Ask yourself how stacking 3-4 perks on a single objective is a good idea for the game.
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I think it's more accurate to say that killers shouldn't be stacking four slowdown perks, and that what killer they're playing should factor in to what perks they pick.
After all, you say Eruption was nerfed into the ground, but it really wasn't. Sure, Trapper can't use it for instance, but if you slap Eruption on Wraith with Windstorm and Shadow Dance addons, it becomes a genuinely really solid perk. Same with Dead Man's Switch; it's not quite as good, of course, but put it on a mobile killer or a killer that can pressure gens at range like Doctor and Artist, and they can make pretty solid use of it.
This doesn't apply to Corrupt Intervention, mind. That perk is literally just as good as it was before and its nerf barely impacted it, since the reason you bring it is to push survivors off the gens they spawn on and it still does that literally just as well as before.
Really, the only totally dead regression perk is Ruin. That one is pretty useless, I can't get that one to give value no matter what build I put it in lol
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4 slowdown help you 2K in high MMR. Without slowdown, you would get 2K in mid MMR.
The result will be the same, except the game will be less stress.
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Yeah people who think running 3-4 gen regression perks is the same as having 1 single decent gen regression perk clearly play both sides. Funny part is I'm more of a survivor main. I just play killer when I get tired of dealing with awful solo q teammates. Speaking of which this thread reminded me of that. Time to slug and camp, hopefully the survivors don't mind :)
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Like I said, that's only one element. The other element is that you're probably meant to put more thought into your build than just "well this perk is always very good on every killer so obviously this one".
There's plenty of good slowdown left in the game, it's just not as straightforward as the entirely unhealthy CoB/Overcharge combo or just cycling Pain Res over and over. Or if it is that straightforward, it's weaker, like Deadlock; perfectly viable and useful perk, but not as impactful as the options getting nerfed.
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The problem with the discourse is that these perks always get evaluated on their own, but they're typically stacked in practice. They can't balance slowdown perks as if they exist by themselves. That's how you end up with the 6.1 CoB/Overcharge/Eruption/Pain Res meta.
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Oh no guys he’s gonna tunnel and camp oh gosh shiver me timbers
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Ask yourself how stacking 4 bnp, 4 toolboxes, 4 hyperfocus, 4 prove thyself, etc is a good idea for the game. I don't understand this double standards. Why killers can't stack 3-4 slowdowns while survs can stack lots of gen speed perks?
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You can thank the killers for the nerfs to those gen perks. They were getting abused.
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BHVR has found themselves in a bit of a bind, as they continue to add perks off category X (Gen related, info related, healing related, movement related) they can start to create unforeseen combos or combos that they just don't care to balance right out of the gate. Gen Regression is a great example but this can be extended to anything. It seems BHVRS answer to the problem is to nerf the problematic perks so when stacked they are "ok" at best and bad/mediocre when alone or hyper specific to certain killers/scenarios.
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I'd like to actually see BHVR's data on those people running 3-4 regression perks. Seems kinda funky that killers en masse apparently opt out of using idk, aura reading or chase perks?
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I believe the design theory is that gen regression builds should not exist. Full stop.
Gen regression perks should be a means to an ends, and should be chosen based on the Killer you are playing, not by the strength of the perk itself.
Let's look at the following 2 examples:
1) Overcharge, Call of Brine, Pain Res, & Eruption
This build asks absolutely nothing of the Killer, except that they kick a gen anytime they see one. It doesn't care what Killer you are playing, just that you down a survivor at least once a minute. There is no counterplay or interaction on the Survivors' part--they just have to hope that they and their teammates are decent loopers.
2) Overcharge, Trail of Torment, Insidious, Hex: Face the Darkness
This build asks the Killer to lie in wait and ambush Survivors that are eager to stop Overcharge's regression. It requires insta-down killers for maximum value, and it trades constant moderate pressure for less frequent, but greater pressure. Survivors are invited to call the Killers bluff, risk taking the bait, or abandon their progress altogether.
Between these two builds, the latter introduces more varied gameplay to DBD. It's not a build that will work on every Killer, but it is absolutely viable on a select few. It requires more interaction between the Killer and Survivors, and is generally more fulfilling to play as and against.
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Why would anyone run overcharge after the ptb changes go live? It will only be useful if you are at some mmr where people can't hit skill checks. Then at that mmr it doesnt matter what you run because you dont even need any perks to 4k
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Killers besides Nurse, Blight and Spirit are supposed to be entertainers for the majority of the customers.
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I've seen that build once in probably 6-700 killer games I played since Hyperfocus was released. Couple of bnps a bit more often, but actual stacked genrushing builds like that, only once.
Meanwhile how many times do I see a killer with 3/4 slowdowns? Ironically, most of them are terrible at the game too and lose anyway
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Thats nothing about double standards if you see your setup mabye once in 1000 games (which shows that this isnt even a good build to go with), but those 4 slowdowns in 9 out of 10 games and it doesnt even matter what killer you play. get some reason into your rants at least.
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But are we playing a different game or what? How is it possible that I, as well as my friends and many other people I know, are always against genrush builds? It seems that on this forum I talk to people who have never caught organized premades that make 3 gen within 20 seconds.
I don't know at what level you play, not even how much you actually play killer, but I alternate between killer and surv and, when I play killer, I always get at least 2 prove per game, endless toolboxes, hyperfocus is rare now because it requires a brain to be used. And even with 4 slowdowns gens fly, because slowdowns need a certain condition to be used (see pain resonance, you need to hook on a scourge, pop needs you to hook and kick a gen within 45 seconds, eruption needs you to kick first and then knock down a surv, and so on), unlike toolboxes and prove which are free bonuses to gen speed.
Do you see the difference? Gen speed perks are brain dead (exept hyperfocus), slowdown require the killer to actually be good to use them. Stop complaining about 4 slowdowns when these perks rewards the killer for playing good, while survs can get free gen speeds out of nothing.
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A better question to ask is why killers fell they need a lot of slowdowns. Spoilers: It isn't because they all need to "get good"
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I have said for a long time that BHVR should implement a couple of extra rules and individual limiters. For the longest time they ran with the idea that every perk should always work to same for everyone and that there were next to no limitations, but with the sea of perks we got now, they are actually running out of design space by doing this, thus putting up more limits then freedom.
How often have you seen a new killer perk and thought "oh, thats neat and finally something that will make Trapper and the other M1 killers a bit more powerful", only to get it nerfed, because Nurse could abuse it.
I want three things:
1) hard caps on certain numerals in the game, like gen repair speed, healing speed, gen regression etc.
2) new labeling and sorting of perks into classes and a hard cap of how many perks of a class can be equipped. Two seems like a reasonable number from the top of my head.
3) outright modify or ban certain perks on certain killers. Perks like Awakened Awareness or Starstruck could shine in a whole different way, if this perks didn't have to be reigned in and limited due to how they amplyfy Nurses power. And of course there are other killers who are overtuned with certain perks that would be totally fine in other killers hands. Or imagine if certain perks had even stronger effects when slapped on an M1 killer. This would allow raising or adjusting their power, without tweaking the basic killer abilities of EVERY killer.
Just my two cents. Maybe I will write up a post for the feedback section, if I can muster the strength to do so.
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1) A cap shouldn't exist, just fix it. Gens are too fast now, nerfs everythings that speed up gens this much (prove thyself, toolboxes, bnp, etc.)
2) Yes and no, because what I always liked in dbd is the personalization, and limiting the possibilities of personalization is bad.
3) They should rework every perk in the game. What I would love to see is that if you fox example use 2 perks of the Trapper on a build you gain a set bonus. I don't know if you play Monster Hunter, but if you don't play it I make you an example: in MH, if I use two or more pieces of the same set I gain a special bonus that I can obtain ONLY in this way. I can see it in dbd. So in this way, you expand the customization possibilities. Banning things is not good for the simple fact that it restricts players, when you should add experimentation for players. There will always be the meta build, but maybe instead of having the usual meta you have a meta where you can see many killers instead of the usual 3 because in one way or another, thanks to an advanced customization, you make the weaker killers can shine at higher ranks.
It isn't difficult at all, these days I'm imagining how to rework every single killer of the game and every single perk of the game, adding new mechanics and making the perks interact with them. Probably when I've finished it I will publish it on the forum, rhe only problem will be the translation seens I'm italian and I'm obviously writing it in Italian.
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Yep, Nurse/Blight/Spirit are only fun for 1 person in a match. Most other killers can actually frequently reach 5.
For me when I win I don't care that they had a 'genrush' build. They brought ez mode and I rose to meet the challenge. When I lose I know the deck was stacked against me anyways. That mindset of 'underdog' gaming allows me to have fun on nearly all Killers. Heck, if anything, it makes ez mode killers feel worse to play, because the loss was truly exclusively my fault.
Gen regression - Overall I think since the game is asymmetrical, it is more of a time/score attack against the opposition. Killer needs to hook/kill survivors as fast as possible, while Survivors need to pump gens as fast as possible. You can make your win easier by slowing down your competitor's wincon (long chase or healing vs slowing gens or pressuring), but ultimately your role's goals should be completed. In that sense, healing and being good in chase are Survivor's secondary objective almost, and gen control Killer's secondary objective. Gen speed perks are brain dead as you put it, because entity window block and Bloodlust is brain dead. Both facets are designed for the primary objective to win out, and not the secondary. That's at least how I see it.
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I like how people pretend like they don't know exactly why the gen kick perks got nerfed. Maybe you guys shouldn't have gen locked everyone for 45 minutes during every match if you didn't want it nerfed.
Post edited by Rizzo on9 -
Entity window block and Bloodlust aren't brain dead. If in a chase I gain bloodlust, it's because the chase is taking too long. While the Window Blocking Entity was made for an obvious reason: to prevent survs from being inescapable from a window. As you said, healing and chases are for survs side quests, while in my opinion chases and gens should be both main quests. If you suck in chases, you die. This is how dbd has always been, until the devs woke up one day and said "Hmm, why don't we just buff how fast survs fix generators?". In fact, many survs don't even need to learn how to make good chases, because they can spam pallets one after the other and the comrades rush the gens. Before this, however, survs had to count the pallets with a dropper because they were very few, and many were unsafe and therefore you had to play it very well, but now survs don't need to learn to loop, they can genrush and win anyway.
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If you got gen locked for 45 minutes, it's called skill issue. I win also when I 3gen, luckily I play in a good swf
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I can try to unpack this a bit. We could get into an MMR measuring contest, but it's ultimately irrelevant because hidden MMR is both ethereal and ironclad. It's convenient whenever the goal posts need to be moved. Skill is relative anyway. Everyone rises to their limit at some point.
Hyperfocus isn't rare because it requires a brain. It's rare because it usually does nothing. It's the biggest placebo perk in the game. Players see Hyperfocus and think the gens are flying because of Hyperfocus, when in reality the gens are flying because players are hard focusing on the gens trying to get value out of a bad perk.
If gens are flying with quad slowdown, you are either A: failing to effectively use your power or B: shouldn't be running quad slowdown on that killer because that killer needs chase help. And it's usually the killer players pulling the "you must be low MMR" card who don't see that comp Oni/M1/Billy/etc players often run 1 or zero slowdowns on them, because all the slowdown in the world won't matter if you aren't hitting survivors. The dissonance is wild at times.
That's the whole issue with overtuned slowdown. It doesn't put weak killers over the top at the highest levels, but it turns B or higher tier killers into almost guaranteed wins.
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I tried hyperfocus with a build made to have great skill check at 90%. It is monstrous as a perk, however it remains balanced and rewards those who play well. The real problems are all gen speed that survs can have from nothing. Prove thyself is brain dead, toolboxes are braindead, bnp is brain dead. And only this 3 things can remove like 70 seconds from gens.
If gens are flying with 4 slowdown, it's because 4 slowdown can't counter the amount of gen speed that survs can get (I'm talking at high levels, I don't consider noobs because an online pvp game should only revolve around strong people, not around noobs). If a chase last 20 seconds, and in that 20 seconds start 2 gens, there is an underlying problem.
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Well consider the reasons why killers have to do it.
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ah, the "gen rush" vs "gen defense" whining thread. time to get popcorn because just like in dead by daylight we'll be here for 3 hours
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Ask yourself.... just one question
Why should basekit progression be 1.2-2.2 and basekit regression be .25
When the game is 4V1 why give the 4 such an advantage over the 1 (when it comes to Gens)
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Because generators and doors are the survivors main objectives. For killer they are secondary objectives to help slow the game down a little. If gens could be regressed as fast as they are done it would be like giving survivors an ability to regain a hook state.
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But it's more like BHVR doesn't want 4 Gen regression perks to be used
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They want people to use a variety of perks, they dont just want meta builds. It's the same reasoning behind the original 6.1 perk overhaul where IW, Spine Chill, Self Care, DS etc got nerfed. It's because players were only using those perks and very little else.
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Did the Killer's skill activate when Bloodlust kicked in? No, its just a band-aid mechanic for bad map design. That is the intended way to play Borgo/Garden of Pain (as far as I can tell). While yes, if you are good at your secondary objective, it can help you beat your opponent but only if the primary objective is still being advanced, that's why I categorize then as such. 'Doing Gens You' is an example of Survivor being good at secondary objective, but not being able to win because the primary objective is failing. Hens 3 gen pseudo hostage taking on Dead Dawg is an example of Killer not 'winning' by focusing on the secondary objective. Technically the Survs quit to not deal with that tomfoolery, making him win by default, but it still would have never ended in a win if played out.
I still think it should be a battle of being better at your primary objective than your opponent though. I'm not sure what a world of chases being a main quest for Survs would look like. To me it would seem like lower skilled Killers would feel like they are dealing with nothing but bully squads, when people are just trying to play normally and win in the new landscape.
Yeah they buffed how fast Survivors fix gens so much it rolled back over into taking longer. I'm confused how 80s->90s is buffing survivor gen speeds. BTL was changed way back when Mikaela released, so that isn't anything remotely new. Overzealous only gets value after 2.1 gens of being uninjured (1.05 if a hex). Resilience is nothing new. Thalita's Friendly Competition gives 5% for 75s after you duo a gen. So you spend ~53s in a duo to save 3.75s each, (assuming you instantly teleport and work on the next gen for the full 75s) That doesn't even make up for the time spent working together. So I'm confused what new buff there was to Survivor end gen speeds other than Hyperfocus, which you already said isn't braindead and requires skill to get meaningful value. I mean I guess BNPs technically got buffed in the gen timer change, since 25% of 90 is larger than 25% of 80, but that's more to joke that it got buffed given the remaining 75% that still needs to be completed.
You are correct that many Survs don't need to learn how to make good chases, but that is because they are going against Killers who are worse in chase. If hold W spacebar spam is beating a Killer, the Killer clearly didn't try to mindgame a single time, or loop a pallet instead of insta-kicking. Hold M1 on gen and instadrop every pallet without looping only works against a Killer that only kicks every pallet they see, and holds W themselves to follow the Surv. Even as Pig you just Bloodlust those Borgo filler pallets and kick them after you get the down. Any other Killer should be using their power to get an early first hit for stealth Killers, or an easy hit at a dropped pallet. If the Survivor is playing the pallet (not predropping), then isn't it a battle of wits of both sides? The better player comes out on top, and that doesn't seem bad to me.
Edit: I saw another post of yours here for what other 'genrush' issues there are. Prove Thyself is braindead, (in sabotaging Survivors sense) as grouping up to get gens done slower than solo at the risk of giving the Killer extra pressure is a losing move. Toolboxes also haven't been touched in 2 years in 4.7.0, so nothing is new there either.
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Gen regression inconvenienced survivors, and we can't have that, so of course it got nuked. Now that it's dead and buried, survivors will find some new boogeyman to complain about and whatever it is, it'll be labeled "oppressive" and "not fun" and it'll get nerfed into the ground too. This'll keep happening until killers are only allowed to hit survivors with pool noodles that do no damage, but give them 20 minutes of haste.
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Butchering killer gen slowdown perks and leaving every survivor’s gen rush perks 🤣
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They should have nerfed prove thyself and brand new parts. Those are quite common in my games while i play survivor.
Next perk survivors will ask to be nerfed is slobby butcher and deadlock, because those will be inconvenience to them next
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Are you asking why an asymmetrical game has asymmetrical mechanics?
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yeah yeah sureeeeee we believe that when (gens/pigs) fly.....
😶😶😶
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That second build is a joke lmao, trail of torment literally alerts survivors you are using it, so even if they somehow get surprised by it it should work a max of 4 times if everyone is on soloq, new overcharge doesn't even have any decent regression so leaving the gen to regress is not a high risk really, just work on another gen while the killer waits like a bozo, any half decent team should literally eat alive any killer running that build ( if they aren't blight or nurse).
But I do understand builds that are easy af to counter is whats considered fun for both sides so yesh it could be fun as really none of those perks are a threat.
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Last official kill rates were 61% average across the entire player base. Numbers provided by BHVR from last September.
And it doesn't matter what changes occur, tunneling *always* increases.
If survivors get buffed or killer gets nerfed, tunneling 'becomes more necessary to win than ever before'. But if killer gets buffed or survivors get nerfed then tunneling is 'still the most efficient way to win and just got easier to accomplish'.
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Tunneling always increases - That's not true, if DS stunned for 15s with unlimited uses, (only the timer/conspicuous limiting it) I'm sure it would drop immensely. It would clearly be an insane undeserving buff, but it would make tunneling drop. (I still think all the double nerfs of 6.1.0 need to be cut back to single nerfs, such as Pop being max % still, and DS being 5s still.)
The second part is sadly true though. After the basekit Killer buffs of 6.1.0, I was hoping soloq would ease up on the tunneling. Instead I had the opposite experience, as Killers were all too happy to abuse hitting off hook to deny Endurance, and taking advantage of DS being nerfed into near uselessness.
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It's simply funny to me. People often don't expect it the first time and I'm kicking gens for Nowhere to Hide anyway, so it just makes sense for me to take. I will probably still run it after patch goes live, just Eruption as a bonus.
In my case upcoming change will lead to less perk diversity, not more.
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It's so funny when survivors say that killers are "abusing" perks by using them at all.
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Kicking gens should immediately regress their progress by 5% - if knight guards can do it then so should every other killer in the game. A mere regression by 2.5% doesn't cut it anymore, we need to double it. Anything else is just inefficient use of time by the killer considering how survivors get 4 times as much time out of a killer's action.
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Spirit when she went against the old DH with DS,Un combo
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Knight and Skullie 3 gen strategy is the reason gen kick regression was nerfed. BHVR makes mistakes with new killers and has to change things that also affect all other killers.
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I don't understand this drive to do whataboutisms in this community. You'd think in an asymmetrical game it'd be a bit less common. But alas.
Just because people are arguing about the slowdown stacking doesn't mean they don't disagree with what you're saying. Calling out a double standard is just trying to get strong reactions at this point.
The obscene gen rush build stacking is stupid, yes, and I personally think gen speed increase perks need to be heavily limited or removed, just as I think gen regression should be kept very tame or removed. The game should revolve less around slowing this game to a crawl and instead on skill and game sense. Fast gens should be countered by a killer that can get chases done fast and cripple teams efficiently.
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And this is tragic.
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Yes, we are. @edgarpoop explained it quite well in his reply:
The funny thing with this whole situation is that most actually good killers that I run against when playing with my swf run 1/2 slowdowns at most, but they're able to pressure the team at a whole different level. You don't see good nurses, blights or other strong killers with stacked slowdowns because they know that in most games it would just be a guaranteed stomp. Meanwhile, when we go against top tier killers with stacked slowdowns, we almost always get a 4 or 3 man escape, mostly because they usually just rely on those perks and don't really have an efficient macro gameplay.
I'm talking as someone with 4k hours, and usually I'm the one with the least amount of hours in the group I play with (with the average being 8k hours). We don't bring boons, we don't use DH or strong meta builds, yet...
The average game against "tryhard nurse/blight" goes like this, and other than the green medkit I wouldn't call anything excessively meta in our builds
The whole point being that killers excessively relying on slowdowns are way more common than survivors bringing a whole genrush build, and usually they're just bad players who can't pressure the game at a level required to win against a good team
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Do you think killers enjoyed using the same 4 slowdown perks almost every game? For me they're just clusterfixes against teams who actually do gens. I know it's hard to believe, but it can happen in lit every match.
Just one thing about Corrupt... Played a match vs. a Plague on RPD last night. I noticed she had it, ran right into her and she got her first down within 10 secs. What she didn't know is, i went down on purpose. Luckily an aware Adam flashlight safed me and boom, bye Corrupt - it lasted like 30 secs. Solo btw. The 3 others might have been together. Can't tell nor check on console. She barely got 2 kills.
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