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This kind of slugging shouldn't be possible
Comments
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Seriously.
I cannot fathom anyone seriously asking for some adjustment to slugging with some expectation that the end result would be superior to the status quo after that cluster-#########.
That update they teased was legitimately awful to the point I'd have zero trouble walking away from this game and never even be tempted to look back.
To be perfectly honest, the inevitable side-effects and limitations bound to come up with whatever alterations the devs might make with about any mechanic or means of griefing in this game are far more worrisome to me than just putting up with the occasional negative experiences.
If getting bleed out for 4 minutes happens to you often enough that it's a genuine problem, then you must be the unluckiest person in the game or you're doing something very, very aggravating to players to warrant that sort of reaction, whether you recognize it or not. That is not normal.
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Asking for conditional recovery options is not a game breaking request. The condition is simply the killer refusing to hook survivors after a certain amount of time. If the killer leaves everyone on the ground and refuses to hook them then survivors should be able to recover fully as a means to punish the killer for ignoring their objective.
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Basekit UB isn't the way to go, just have the entity take them if all the remaining survivors are downed for 30 seconds or w.e.
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I never suggested basekit unbreakable. In fact I don't think that perk or a basekit ability would even be effective in dealing with this situation. Also I would rather the killer be punished for ignoring hooking an entire downed team rather than be rewarded for it.
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If slugging is such a problem for the people. Why not just pick unbreakable?
I didn’t get this in the basekit bt discussion too. If it’s such a big problem that the killer downs the unhooked guy again and again. Why not just pick bt?
I mean if a perk is essential doesn’t mean you need to receive it for free. Or did I get a basekit ruin undying back the day it was meta? I guess no.
So why do people cry for free stuff when they can just pick the perk?
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They have deliverance ? Ds ? Boil Over ?There are nearby hooks or are way to far away ? As a killer how i may know what perks they have ? If i feel confident enough to attempt the hook or if there is an hook in a valid range then yes i'll go for it if not then it's not my problem you can stay on the ground until you bleed out
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I thought that's what you meant by "basekit abilities", if not my mistake.
As for not "rewarding" the killer, as you said the killer already won. You'd be potentially ripping away a victory or kill from the killer by trying to punish them just because they slugged the last 2 survivors. Slugging is a valid potential route to take to secure a kill or close out a match. Even as a main strategy, slugging is valid. It gets you kills which is the win con.
I'm just suggesting to expedite the process. If you want slugging gone from the game entirely that's different than the impression I got.
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They win if they choose to hook everyone when hooks are nearby. They already "won" in that context but since they are refusing to follow through with the hooks then survivors should have a way out of that situation. That is what I mean by they already won at that point. Survivors need something different than a perk as a basekit ability to deal with this. We need a situation reset. Maybe something similar to what no mither allows you to do but it only works when either everyone is down or you've been on the ground for a certain amount of time. Survivors being able to recover naturally should be a basekit thing for them at this point in the game but as I said, make it conditional.
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We crawled past half the hooks on the map with the killer following us the whole time. There was no excuse for them to do this to us and no excuse for any killer to do the same. Besides, its already been mentioned here that a bleedout doesn't give the same credit as a hook so you're giving a lot of reasons to get the same amount of BPs you'd probably get kicking a few generators waiting 4 minutes for an entire team to bleed out.
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A perk will not solve this issue, especially unbreakable which is a one time use for the pickup effect. Other perks would only be effective in a coordinated play in comms with a SWF group. This solves nothing for solo players and forces SWF to run the same build forever to deal with something that shouldn't be happening in the first place. We don't need a basekit perk. We need something basekit that activates under certain conditions which will in time become common knowledge to both survivor and killer players which will lead to less killers slugging knowing they can't get away with it. If a killer leaves a survivor on the ground for more than a minute that survivor should be able to fully recover without the use of a perk.
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Not necessarily, there's still the chance to unhook yourself on first stage or wiggle off. The safest and most logical option most of the time is for the killer to just let them bleed out and not risk the 4% or a wiggle off or a perk like power struggle. Securing the win.
If past 1st stage, then you'll all get sacrificed anyway.
There should be no reason to not just let them get sacrificed on the spot like I suggested, it just saves everyone time.
The survivors don't need "a way out" they already lost. So just skip the wait and go to the loss.
Slugging for kills is still getting kills, which at the end of the day is the win condition for the killer. Not hooks. But it not taking up to 4 minuets once there's no chance of the survivors winning would be nice.
Blood points don't matter.
Also you're basically asking for some form of basekit unbreakable. No mither is essentially just unlimited unbreakable with broken. So idk why you're trying to say you're not asking for it when you are, even if conditional.
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If I recall, that particular test was a disaster. (I don't remember specifically why.)
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The problem here is with the bleeding out though, not slugging. Kills are the win condition, but the game doesn't consider bleed outs as kills and deducts them from the kill score post game. Bleed out one and you can't get a Merciless Killer, 4 bleed outs give a "Entity Hungers". The OP is just wanting to participate in normal gameplay.
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The score and the win condition are different, hence why MMR and the emblems are separated. You can even kill the survivors too quickly to get a good score. You still won the game in the eyes of the MMR system the same as if you had a 12 hook game.
Bleeding them out is still a kill and still counts towards the win con and the MMR considering it a win afaik.
Hook rescues and picking someone up from the floor are pretty much the same thing. The only real currently relevant difference is needing to wait after everyone alive is on the floor, which Is why I suggested a small timer to allow for perks like UB, then having them all be taken if no one gets up.
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Bleeding out 4 survivors lowers your MMR. Bleeding out 4 survivors doesn't give you any score points either. Bleeding out a survivor is a loss in both emblem and MMR land.
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If a full bleedout of all 4 survivors on the ground equates to a win for the killer then even more matches would just be an endless slugfest. Besides that, you're missing the point entirely. The killer ignoring the objective of hooking the survivors, especially in the case of not hooking the entire team, should not be rewarded. You're using very irrational reasons (4% unhook chance and rare wiggle off) to justify killers leaving the whole team on the ground for an entire bleedout. If the whole team is down anyway then you don't have to worry about another survivor intervening the hook. You only have the extremely rare wiggle off and 4% unhook chance to worry about. You're basically saying you should be guaranteed the win for downing the whole team and you want to be absolutely sure of it by forcing the whole team to bleedout instead of hooking them. No. You should have to endure the risk of even the rare wiggle off or self unhook at the very least which is still in the killer's favor. There is no excuse or rational argument for this.
A bleedout should not be considered a "win condition." It should be considered a loss for ignoring the hooks. This kind of behavior should not be incentivized or justified by the mentality of "well a kill is a kill even if its the most inconvenient way possible for them." It should be punished by survivors having the ability to escape the situation. There is no rational defense for the kind of killer that literally every survivor never wants to play against.
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Can you give me a source? Afaik the only thing that doesn't count as a kill is an escape (obviously) and a DC.
All the info I can find just says as long as they die your MMR goes up, it doesn't matter how.
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Bleed outs are the same as hatch escapes - they're neutral and don't affect MMR. MMR also isnt simply increased by kills, it also depends on the MMR of your opponent. If you kill a survivor with a lower MMR than you, then it doesn't increase your MMR because the game expected the better player to win. There's a bit more to it than simply dead survivor = more MMR, or escape killer = more MMR.
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ok that's nice if its true, but I asked for a source not the same info I already got that might not even be true.
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This is the best I could find and it contradicts what you're saying
"the Skill-Based Matchmaking Rating only considers the death of Survivors (or their failure to escape) when calculating its final MMR score, and does not care how that death occurred.
Whether a Survivor died because of being sacrificed, being killed by the Killer's own hand, or being bled-out, or even how many times they were hooked, is of no concern to the MMR system, they will all count as kills.
This is contrary to the Emblem system (used to determine a Player's Grade), as that system only considers deaths from being sacrificed or being killed by the Killer's hand as actual kills, and also factors in how many times they were hooked."
That's from the fandom wiki, so not an amazing source but again, best I could find.
Post edited by MrPenguin on2 -
most wraiths i see do this.
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I don't see what's irrational about that. They have 3 chances to 4% and it's for each survivor.
What is the reason for the killer to hook everyone? Its literally an unnecessary risk just because the survivors won't like waiting.
If anything its more irrational to suggest the killer hook them. All it does it put them at risk. The only reason to is emotion based, not logic based.
I'm not "missing the point" your point just isn't true, hooks are not the objective, kills are. Hooks are just the most common and accessible way to get kills.
Also it seems your other main argument is "survivors don't like it" which yeah sure, but that sucks for them. Survivors also don't like just dying in general.
Lets say one survivor 4%, then the other(s) die, hatch spawn and they escape.
I've had that happen to me multiple times. In that situation I get punished for hooking when I could have easily just left them on the floor. I don't because I don't want to wait that long but that's my choice.
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You're advocating for a risk free "win" at the expense of making the game miserable for others. If a 4% unhook chance worries you that much then I don't know what to tell you. The subject of slugging should not be designed around that perspective. If you leave an entire team of survivors on the ground you deserve to be punished for it. You're going to an extreme to mitigate the rarest plays that happen in the game. You don't see what is irrational about that because you went into this thread with an extremely biased perspective on the whole situation. Excessive slugging is toxic. It has no place in this game.
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What biased perspective?
My perspective is it is a valid win condition so its allowed, that's all. That's factually true, my bias is removed lol.
I actually don't like it as is, hence why I avoid doing it myself. But I can remove myself from the objective.
I'm advocating to get rid of the wait time. If you don't have to wait so long I don't see why its a problem anymore.
At that point what is there to be "miserable" about? That they didn't hook you? So what?
Your advocating to punish the killer just for trying to win in a way you don't like. Slugging isn't toxic inherently. You can use it to be toxic, but its not toxic in itself.
Post edited by MrPenguin on5 -
I've actually been looking for a source since I posted my comment. I found the wiki as well, but as you said, it's a fan one so I've been trying to find something more official. Found multiple discussions on it with people having a varied idea of what a bleed out constitutes, but again, nothing official. Did find confirmation from a dev regarding hatch escape being null, so from a comparison pov it would make sense (imo) for bleed outs to be the same, especially considering how they're treated post-game, but I'd prefer official confirmation so will keep looking.
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Yeah I saw that post when they posted it as well. I personally don't see the connection between hatch and bleeding out. One is luck based so it doesn't count, the other is (usually) intentionally used to kill the survivor(s).
Imo, bleeding out is closer to a pig trap or Sadako condemn, just an alternate kill condition.
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A shorter bleedout and those deaths counting as kills for the killer would incentivize the entire killer playerbase to do nothing but knock down and slug every team they go against. I'm advocating for fairness and balance. There is nothing fair or balanced about leaving the entire survivor team on the ground for a full bleedout. Survivors have one way they can escape as a team and that is powering the exit gate by doing 5 generators. Killers have 3 ways to eliminate us: hooks, mori and slugging. Survivors can't just stand around after the exit gate is powered and wait for it to open itself. Slugging should be in every way detrimental to the killer if done for a prolonged period of time the same way it would be detrimental to survivors standing around and not trying to open the exit gate. A bleedout should not count as a kill and from what I understand you don't gain near as much as you would through a hook elimination so you're arguing simply from the perspective of survivor elimination rather than through genuine progress. It really does sound like you look at it as "survivor died therefore I win" but really you didn't win. You actually lost and all those bleedouts aren't making you go up in MMR like you would with hook eliminations.
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Actually as far as we have seen a bleedout does count as a kill and makes your MMR go up. Those saying otherwise are currently trying to find a source. Imo it seems like that's a bit of misinformation floating around due to confusion with the emblem, and a source doesn't exist because it's not true.
Last I heard any kill counts towards MMR going up, including bleedout. However your emblem score will not count a bleedout, but that's separate. MMR only cares if you killed the survivor, since that's the win con.
I don't see what a conditional shorter bleedout would change in the event everyone is on the floor. It just saves time, but if you'd rather wait for 4 minuets instead of 30 seconds then sure advocate against it.
It wouldn't incentivize it anymore than it does currently as you'd still need to get everyone on the ground.
You still chase, you still down, you just opt for a bleedout over a hook. In either case the killer can still defend the area, and another survivor still has to come save.
It takes much longer than a hook sacrifice (almost double iirc), Killers don't see the aura unlike a hook (basekit), all healing buffs speed up the process of picking someone up, you might have to do it a lot more than 3 times per survivor, and the survivor can move.
It has trade offs, its fair and balanced just fine. It's just unpleasant because it takes too long after the point the game is lost in most cases.
If it was unfairly strong almost everyone would be doing it just like they do with all the unfairly strong things (Old DH, Old MoM, Iri hatchets, release reworked Freddy, Old DS, CoB pain res 3 gen, Ect.).
Survivors don't only have the gates, they have the hatch. But regardless its an asymm game, they wont have the same amount of options on both sides by design.
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How about just ending the game if all survivors are incapacitated? Add a "can get up"-chck or whatever. Or make it a vote.
Give killer full sacrifice score or not.
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Pretty much what I've been advocating for. They don't want that, they specifically want the killer to be punished for slugging.
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"Not an amazing source".
The fandom wiki literally datamines all of their stuff. There objectively isn't a better source than the game's own code.
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Here is how it works, this quote comes from patch 6.5.0:
Merciless Killer
- Moving forward, getting 4 Kills will earn the Killer a Merciless Killer rating, rather than the previous requirement of a double pip.
The MMR system is based on kills and escapes and the very first post match tally screen will tell a player if they made kills. If a player kills 4 survivors (by sacrifice or mori) , they will get a Merciless Killer rating. If they kill 3 survivors and bleed out 1, they will get a Ruthless killer. If they bleed out 2 or 3, they will get a Brutal Killer. Bleed out 4 and they get "The Entity Hungers".
This shows that the game doesn't consider bleed outs as actual kills. A killer can't get an adept achievement if they bleed out even 1 survivor or advance a tome achievement for killing X survivors by any means. And if a killer doesn't get kills, their MMR goes down.
If anyone still doubts this, they can load up a game with bots, bleed them out and see for themselves.
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If you really did “crawl across the map hoping the killer would hook you”, then why isn’t there a hook visible in your screenshot?
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Oh I didn't know that, thank you.
So bleedouts are kills confirmed.
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See this is exactly what I thought was happening. Listen, the scores at the end of the game screen are absolutely 100% irrelevant to your MMR. It's a completely different system. You're getting them confused.
Your grade/rank is not your MMR.
As said above, the wiki datamines the information from the game itself, and as far as the devs have stated in their dev streams and post across time, the only things that don't count are DC's and escapes, with hatch being neutral.
So its confirmed that bleedouts are indeed kills and we can put this to rest.
"Whether a Survivor died because of being sacrificed, being killed by the Killer's own hand, or being bled-out, or even how many times they were hooked, is of no concern to the MMR system, they will all count as kills."
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Just tagging you to let you know that the wiki datamines the game, so its confirmed that bleedout are kills. Since I know you were looking for a source and potentially to save you time if you still were.
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This has nothing to do with the scores, emblems or blood points. This has to do with the words. These words ONLY change based on number of kills and that specific first page of the post match system reflects what happened.
MERCILESS KILLER = 4K
RUTHLESS KILLER = 3K
BRUTAL KILLER = 1K or 2K
THE ENTITY HUNGERS = 0K
If you bleed out a survivor it DEDUCTS from your killer rating. MMR is based on kills, if you kill a survivor your MMR goes up, if you don't kill a survivor your MMR goes down. Bleeding out a survivor is clearly shown IN THE GAME as not being the same as killing them by sacrifice or mori. A killer does not get a kill by bleeding out a survivor, and if it's not a kill it's a loss. Abusing this is how some killers tank their MMR intentionally.
Edited: to throw in the below sauce
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/369
Merciless Killer
Finally, we have a small update to Merciless Killer ratings. These ratings are currently tied to the grades system, where a double pip earns you a Merciless Killer result and the corresponding adept Killer achievement/trophy. Unfortunately, this means that as your grade increases, it becomes harder to earn these achievements. Since the emblem system has transitioned to a monthly ladder, it no longer makes as much sense for match results to be based on them.
To clean things up, the result you get after a match will now be tied directly to kills.
- 0 Kills: The Entity Hungers…
- 1-2 Kills: Brutal Killer
- 3 Kills: Ruthless Killer
- 4 Kills: Merciless Killer
With this change, the requirement for a Merciless Killer rating is much clearer and remains the same regardless of your grade. This will also make Killer adept achievements a similar level of difficulty to their Survivor counterparts.
Post edited by apathyinc on1 -
Merciless Killer and Emblems are separate from MMR. Devs have already confirmed that if a survivor dies from being hooked, being bled out, EGC, etc it counts as a win and the Killer's MMR goes up. Bleeding a survivor out has the same effect on MMR as hooking; bleeding a survivor out has a negative effect on Emblems but Emblems only affect your BP rewards.
As a side note, the words don't have an effect on MMR either. Only Kills by any method do.
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Sure, but that's only in regard to the endscreen/achievement system, not MMR.
This is literally data pulled form the game itself, its how the game is coded and it lines up with what we knew before.
Bleedouts are kills for MMR. But they don't count for the words on the endscreen which is a completely different system. That change was made for achievements, as it sates in the source you yourself gave, and changed nothing about the MMR system.
There's no debating that, those are the facts, bleedouts are kills for MMR as coded in the game by the devs and hasn't been changed. It's the same as before outside of achievements.
They are 2 separate, unrelated, isolated, uninteracting systems. Everything on the endscreen has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the win condition or the MMR system. Including the "_ killer" part.
Post edited by MrPenguin on0 -
I agree with the caveat that if a survivor teabags they 100% deserve to be bled out. Players who haven't teabagged should not be bled out and it's toxic to bleed someone out who hasn't teabagged (as opposed to not having a choice but to bleed out due to positioning and Boil Over, Sabo Exponential squads, etc).
However, if someone does teabag, I hope they get bled out to almost nothing and then get facecamped for another two minutes or so.
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No finisher mori it does not count on xbox sacrifice stats. I want my 4K:s to increase my sacrifice total.
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To clean things up, the result you get after a match will now be tied directly to kills.
To clean things up, the result you get after a match will now be tied directly to kills.
To clean things up, the result you get after a match will now be tied directly to kills.
To clean things up, the result you get after a match will now be tied directly to kills.
So what you are saying is that even though game does not recognize a bleed out as being a kill in ANY way, somehow it still is.
A while back there was a TTV who would do nothing but bleed out survivors, match after match. He has been banned on Twitch, these forums, Reddit, Steam and who knows what else. He would go through hundreds of matches without anyone escaping through the gates or hatch, yet somehow he ALWAYS seemed to play against new players. This was happening because the excessive use of bleed outs were keeping his MMR low. Kills are tied directly to MMR, bleed outs aren't considered kills by the game, and they drastically reduce MMR if abused.
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Yes, because that's literally how its coded and how the system works.
I don't see why its so hard for you to understand.
His MMR wasn't lowered for bleedouts, matchmaking just sucks.
Post edited by MrPenguin on1 -
I took more than one screenshot when I was thinking about making this post. The one in my OP looked like the best one to use for the subject. Below is a screenshot I took about a minute into the slugging which shows me literally crawling right by a hook. See the red arrow and me about 10 feet away. No doubt Mikaela in the distance crawled past several too. The killer refused to hook us when they easily could have and ended the match much sooner.
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Here is why it's hard for me to understand what you are saying:
- I linked a source of the devs saying where kills are tallied
- I showed that bleeding out a survivor decreases from that kill tally
- Anyone can bleed out survivors or bots to confirm this how it works
- I pointed out how bleed outs don't count for adept or challenges
- Gave an example (and I'll provide the details if you want) of someone using bleed outs to abuse MMR
The source that you linked is a wiki that can be edited by anyone, my sources were this site and the game itself. The devs have said over and over they won't give the details of how the MMR is calculated other than it's based off kills and bleed outs aren't being counted as kills by the game.
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The devs did reveal the details of MMR though in a dev stream and said it was (paraphrasing here) just kills and escapes and it doesn't care how you killed them. I believe it was actually the stream where we got the infamous "DBD is hokey" meme.
The game was datamined, thats how we know the softcap for MMR is, iirc, 1900 and new players start at 1100. Why we know gains and losses are affected by match duration.
That's how we know that bleedouts count for a kill in MMR.
They just didn't bother to update the killer rank system to include bleedouts and just changed how the emblem system affected the rank. However, that system never included bleedouts and they didn't add it in, maybe they forgot, didn't care enough, or something, but they didn't add it in. However, that has no bearing on the MMR system which is completely separate.
Unless that streamer datamined his own game and showed that his MMR wasn't increasing, then no, his MMR was going up given all other evidence.
The survivor is dead, you killed them, its a kill, the MMR counts it. The endscreen and achievement system does not.
If you want to ignore the very code of the game itself, and the dev stream on MMR, because of a different post about an entirely different system, then you are purposely being delusional.
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The devs NEVER said bleed outs are counted as kills. Never, not even once.
They did say that the killer rating result specifically tallies kills, and it's proven that it does not count bleed outs as kills. This screen uses the game's own ruleset to determine the kills.
If bleed outs were counted as kills a new player could come in and have no idea that they were supposed to hook someone (even though there are picture diagrams showing to do this) and just knock down every one and bleed them out. If they did this every match they would soon be facing the best players in the game without even grasping basic gameplay concepts.
I understand that there is no convincing you and I no longer care to try.
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They also never said they don't.
The code for the MMR is what it is.
Is it dumb that it's inconsistent with the endscreen/emblems? Yes.
Does it make sense for it to be a kill since they died? Yes.
Does it make sense for it not to count? No.
Does it make sense that its different between to two systems? No.
Do the devs make sense half of the time? Also no.
Do the devs mess up a lot? Yes.
Does MMR define the win condition? Yes.
You're literally refusing to accept reality of the way the system and game is built to avoid admitting you're wrong and to protect your ego. So if you want to run away please do, its a waste of time to try and explain anything to you as you'd rather believe your right than actually have the answer.
I don't care if it ended up counting or not, but I do care for having the correct information and knowing what the win condition is.
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Killers are supposed to be sacrificing survivors to the entity. Any kill that isn't that should not be rewarded in the same was as a sacrifice both in mmr and points. You are still using the same argument which is basically "well survivor died therefore I win" even if it means a 4 minute bleedout. No, you don't win like that. That is the very kind of player that no survivor player wants to play against. Excessive slugging needs to be disincentivized.
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No killer wants to play with survivors that purposely place themselves in situations where the killer can't hook them, and this happens a lot. The mori PTB failed, because as soon as survivors realized they could pick themselves up, they played things like unbreakable/flip flop/tenacity/breakdown, and purposely tried as hard as possible to place themselves in situations where the killer couldn't hook them.
You have to fix both sides of the problem at the same time.
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