Slugging cannot be that toxic
When i play and I down the last 2 survivors, nearly allways they try to hide and slug themself for 4 minutes instead of just staying where they are and let me hook em.
If the survivors voluntarily slug themselves to death, how bad can it be?
Comments
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At that point, they do it to try and prevent you from getting points. If you're going to make them sit there fir 4 minutes, they're going to try and make sure you don't get many points for it.
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A lot depends on context, but often times what you're describing is a "if you're gonna waste my time, I'm gonna waste yours" mentality from the slugged surv.
It's one thing if you down the next to last survivor and the last one is right there to chase, but if the killer downs you and then scours the entire map for minutes because they are thirsty for that 4K, it becomes kind of an FU situation.
I usually won't move, but if I know the other surv is no where near and the killer goes off on an expedition to find them, I will often just crawl to the most well hidden spot I can find and then go get a snack or something.
Why? Because slugging for the 4K like that is lame as hell.
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All of this.
Sure, you down me while I'm getting healed and go after the healer, I get that. However, if you down me and run off to find the last other survivor that tells me you just don't know what it feels like to get a 4k. So, yeah I'm going to crawl somewhere and waste your time. I can always tell when I'm playing against a good/skilled killer. They down and they hook, usually not the first hook they see, you can tell they are planning to not leave deadzones.
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I get it if there are 2 survivors left and the killer slugs me because the other survivor is around and got found close to me. I have absolutely 0 issues with that. What sucks is when I'm downed and the other survivor is nowhere close to us but the Killer decides to slug me to find the other survivor searching the whole map. Such a waste of time.
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So if the killer Slugs you for 30sec to kill the last one and get the 4k its "lame". But if you slug yourself for 4 Minutes to avoid him getting the BP (because you cannot deny him the 4k) its somehow a resonable thing?
As killer i never try to slug suv. for 4 minutes, but often at the end and only 3 gen left i mostly know where the last 2 survivors are soa after i down 1 suv i go quick there and down the 2nd one, hook him before i come back to the first surv. to hook him.
So i try to make it as fast as possible. But often in that time the first suv. tried to crouch away and slug himself for 4minutes.
And before we misunderstand, i really dont mind that mutch if you slug yourself for 4 minutes. It just surprised me when i saw in a youtube video that "sluging" is from some people considered toxic.
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Yes, basically it's pretty lame. Unless you can see the last survivor or something like a missed skillcheck gave away their location... it's pretty lame. You can argue that patrolling the gens more will hopefully find them, but ultimately your doing what others are stating and scouring the map LOOKING rather than entering a chase. The downed survivor can tell the difference when you run off in a direction away from the teammate they can see the aura of.
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You might try to not leave someone slugged for a long time but the survivor doesn't know that. I've been slugged many times until bleed out because the killer just couldn't catch the last survivor or because they were moving around lockers the entire time the killer was searching for them. I'd rather move around sight seeing than sitting in one spot for the entire duration.
There are other reasons as well, maybe they are trying to move to a spot the other survivors can pick them up from. They may try to get to an area with less hooks around for a possible wiggle. Sometimes I will move to an area I've seen the hatch spawn before, in hopes it will spawn near me when the other survivor is hooked.
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If you are for example down on 2 suv 1gen.
One survivor is trying to get you away from the gen, while the other is doing the gen. So if you down the last survivor and you just check the gen you have a very high chance to catch the last suv.
Often you catched them together so you also know on which gen they were working on
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Its really not toxic. Its just like in all things 4mins feels like an eternity if you have to wait, so people blow it way out of proportion when they have to wait.
During this time a lot of them sit there imagining all the malicious intent their opponent must have in slugging them and project all their anger and malcontent onto them so that by the time the 4 mins are up its been an agonizing endurance at the mercy of some horrible monster out to ruin their fun... rather than just 4 mins.
When most cases tend to be I couldn't find the survivor to pick them up.. so they bled out.
If people want the mechanic changed they need to stop hyper-focusing on the supposed toxicity of it all and look at the mechanic pragmatically.
- Is less than 4 mins enough time to be repeatedly slugged throughout the game and not prematurely bleed out? Could they shorten the timer?
- If only 1 or 2 players left, both slugged and unable to pick themselves up do we need a button to end the bleed timer and die?
- If they had a die button how could they stop players using it to avoid moris or deny achievements or tomes?
The bleed timer is the solution to being slugged, without it you'd just lay there till the killer felt like hooking you.
The primary question seems to be how long is too long. Because I guarantee if they make it 3 mins, then after a while people will be crying that its too long to wait 3 mins! But if they make it 1 min then people will complain that they never had the chance to be picked up because the bleed out timer is too short!
Personally I think 4 mins works, maybe they could try 3.
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If you slug for the 4k you 100% deserve having your time wasted as well.
there's a massive diff between slugging when you can literally see the other survivor and when you have no idea where the last survivor is.
If you do the latter, please uninstall
Post edited by Steakdabait on7 -
What if the killer is going for their adept? Or is doing one of the archives that requires a 4k?
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Then go for it in the next. I have played a lot of killer (as much or more than surv) and have chased many adepts and countless tome challenges, but you have to draw a line somewhere. Well don't have to, but if you're gonna leave someone on the ground potentially for minutes to go on a wild goose chase, that is a line I won't cross. It's just really poor form, imo.
4Ks aren't terribly hard to come by, really, and not every game needs to be a 4K. Not every scenario where only one surv is up is opportunity that simply can't be passed up. 4Ks aren't currency.
Everyone has their own sensibilities, but I actively resent players who play like every 4K adds a year to their life or something. In a game with no real ranking system or substantial tangible reward, it's just kind of pathetic.
I can maybe excuse it if someone is chasing a really elusive adept they've been chasing for a long time (like if they've decided to try to get it when that killer is already at high MMR, which frankly is a result of poor planning), but that's about it.
99.9% of the time, if you have two survs left and one is on the ground but you don't know where the other is, hook the one and take your chances with the hatch game. By most definitions you've already "won", and the odds are still in your favor to get that last surv.
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I'd like to see the Devs change the way the game ends on a bleedout.
The killer is supposed to sacrifice the survivors to the entity, hence why you need a special item or situation to actual kill a survivor. Letting them bleed out is a failure of that objective as they die and have not been sacrificed.
Perhaps an animation of them turning into an angel and escaping the trial that way and reward with escape like bloodpoints. When the bleedout option hurts the killer side and helps the survivor side, there would be no more slugging and that would be healthy for the game.
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One would think that the Entity would really view bleedouts as a waste and punish rather than reward the killer for them.
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In terms of lore, it would certainly seem that way. The entity punished the Trapper for not wanting to participate, seems there should be punishment for failing to sacrifice.
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Yeah but you are asking your opponent to trade one inconvenience for another. "Just play another match for the adept rather than try for it in this match." Maybe you can excuse them if they have been hunting for a long time but you have no idea and simply want them to make that trade for your personal convenience.
Why, because I don't want to lay here.
You are right at that point you have already won but there is nothing wrong with going for the 4k, because it's the goal of the game after all. Calling people pathetic because they want to get the max goal, achievement or otherwise is just... well... an example of toxicity.
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When I play survivor, bleeding out doesn't bother me too much much, but being so desperate for the 4k as to waste my time bugs the hell out of me so I do what I can to turn it into a "I'm not trapped in here with you, you are trapped here with me" situation. They were expecting to waste a couple minutes of my time, I'm happy to waste twice that of their's just out of spite.
I mostly play killer and I'm happy to slug against an altruism squad or when I know they'll get picked up, usually because they are on death hook while the rest of the team still has plenty of hooks to go so I'm trying to give them a chance. If they don't get picked up in a minute or so, I'll usually go back and pick them up myself and let them wiggle off. I never slug for the 4k. At most I'll go after the other survivor if they are right there and able to be downed immediately. If I can't catch them within a couple seconds I break off and hook the downed survivor. If the other gets hatch, oh well, I still won.
I definitely support a self bleed out option after being on the ground for 60 seconds or so.
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If you can down 1 guy, look over and see the scratch marks of his retreating teammate... sure, go for it. If you CANT, hook the guy and start the hatch game. That 99.9999% gen doesn't matter at that point. The last guy isn't going to finish it and give away his position if he has no more teammates.
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Very amusing topic with some very amusing replies.
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It's just like anything else related to human interactions. It's situational. Slugging a survivor that runs boil over and goes to a part of the map where they can't be hooked? Not toxic. Downing all four survivors and just letting them all bleed out instead of hooking them? Toxic. People have to decide based on the circumstance, and not rely on their own bias to interpret other people's behaviour.
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I suspect it's a case of 'you wanna waste my time, I'm gonna waste yours'
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"Going for the max goal" is fine, but there is a spectrum of the lengths one will go to in order to achieve it. The near desperation for the 4K in situations like we're discussing is not terribly becoming for the player.
Sportsmanship is a thing, and simply because something is technically allowed does not mean it is justified. Hard tunneling or camping are in the same realm of being allowed but generally frowned upon. Skull Merchant players dragging a game out for 60 minutes to guarantee a 4K is the same on balance as a killer slugging a surv for minutes to find a hiding survivor is no better if you're looking at them both as "going for the max goal".
But none of these strats are being practiced in a vacuum, and decorum has value. DBD isn't a game of chess, it's an unbalanced party game where player experience matters.
I think it's pathetic behavior, yes. I think it's (or should be) beneath most people. That's not a legal judgment or condemnation, just my opinion. I'm not forcing it on people, just expressing it on a forum.
Yeah, once you're down to tow survs and one is down, the last one standing isn't going to be found on a gen unless they're a total potato. 99% of the time, once that second to last surv is on the ground, the last surv up is going to cease objectives and play for the hatch. And if the last surv is simply trying not to be found, they almost certainly won't be.
So what you'll end up with most likely is one surv unnecessarily bled out and a hatch game will ensue, same as if the surv had been hooked. Only difference is needlessly wasted time.
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If you see the killer is playing for the 4k and you're concerned about time being wasted, you can always run up to the killer as the last survivor and offer yourself up, ending the game immediately - no hatch, no slugging, no egc.
I don't see this becoming a popular choice, though.
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Short answer: Its not toxic. People just have no patience for anything that slightly inconveniences them.
Long Answer: Slugging is not in itself. Most people who whine about being slugged aren't being left for 4 minutes, usually around 1 and 2 at max while the killer hunts down a hiding teammate. Are there people that leave survivors slugged for that time for no reason than to mess with them? Sure. But IMO that is no different than survivors tbagging at hatch or waiting for the killer to see them leave. Literally just scroll on your phone if you find yourself in that situation. You aren't being held hostage. The killer did not load up the match to ruin your fun specifically. They just want to get that final kill, which is part of the objective.
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Just play another match for adept... you mean like the survivors that have to do that because they get tunneled out? Or make the final trade on a face camping killer and lose it even though they played a great match?
It's an achievement. It's supposed to be difficult. Slugging is just trying to take a short cut to the achievement.
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Don't think you can really call it "toxic" for a survivor to try and crawl away while slugged to try and get hatch...
I'd actually commend them for trying...
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No one should ever reward toxic behavior.
It's why I love that the Devs don't count a bleed out for a 4k achievement. Again, earn it. Play smart. Keep track of your hooks. If you are that desperate for the 4k, hook everyone twice except for one person. Start eliminating those on death hook. When you have two left, down the one that can be saved. Hook that one and you have plenty of time to look.
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Even if the killer picks me up and hooks me, I'm staying in the game for the full two minutes while the other person hides in a locker or w/e.
Don't want to promote hiding for hatch or self-killing on hook.
After all, these things are toxic and should not reward anyone.
Of course, they can always just run up to the killer while I am on the hook or even unhook me, which also amounts to them doing the same against any decent player - No idea why they'd waste that entire 2 minutes with such shameful behavior most times.
Truly deplorable behavior that wastes everyone's time.
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Seems like a lot of people just aren't mentally equipped to play matches to completion.
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that is just a straight up bad mentality you have there.
just awful.
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I mean that's how you feel and I can respect that but if someone is doing an archive that requires a 4k or is doing an adept and there's 2 survivors left, it just makes sense to down one and search for the other. Hatch, while an important game mechanic, is something that you need to play around if you wanna get your 4k. If there weren't these things ingame that the devs chose to require 4ks, then I'd be more sympathetic to your point.
And for some players depending on their MMR, 4ks can be pretty tough to come by. As you mentioned, they could be trying for an adept on a killer they're not good at, or matchmaking is simply making their life miserable and they get game after game against really good teams.
And again I get why you don't ever slug for the 4k yourself and I completely agree that's it's not very fun for survivors on the receiving end, but to resent players for playing in a way that BHVR forces them to if they want to reliably get a 4k? That's kinda extreme.
If a killer wants a 4k, they don't really have a choice.
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Agree.
God forbid the killer try to get a 4k or complete an adept or a challenge or maximize point gain or grade gain or MMR gain...etc
FORBIDDEN.
As I said earlier:
Seems like a lot of people just aren't mentally equipped to play matches to completion.
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It's not. I have been bled out a few times and I just alt tab instantly. Most of the time the killer isn't trying to bleed me out.
Thread is wack.
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How is it awful?
It literally is an achievement and meant to be a challenge. Taking a short cut by slugging is kinda lame and as I said, I'm super glad the devs took away the ability to get the achievement via bleed out. Seems the devs also agree that it isn't appropriate.
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So toxic slugging does happen but it doesn't matter cos survivors teabag?
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The devs must also agree that slugging for the 4k is the best way to get these as it bypasses the hatch/auto loss of the adept.
They must super agree as you can slug someone, look for the last survivor, fail, hook the 3rd within seconds of bleedout, and still have an advantage in the hatch game.
They must omega approve as you can just stand on the hatch until server kills the game.
I'm sure you can see the flaw in making such claims.
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LOL..
Seems like some people aren't "mentally equipped" to handle someone out-playing them and getting out via the hatch.
So, the survivor should just lay in place and do nothing so you can maximize your points or grade gain... so you play out to completion but you expect them to sit in once place for 4 minutes and go AFK so you can do your thing.
If you want the game played out then play it out. That means complete the killer objective...hook and sacrifice. Not bleed out.
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I don't have to hook anyone to win or complete my objective of killing all survivors.
I can win every game by slugging exclusively for bleed out if I really wanted to play that way - I don't, personally, but the option is there as are the mechanics to allow it.
If you're saying a hatch escape is an 'out play,' what would you call preventing said 'out play?'
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See this is where you are just completely wrong.
Your objective is not to kill all the survivors. Your objective is to SACRIFICE them to the entity. Can't sacrifice them via bleed out.
The bleed out timer was placed in the game just to prevent killers from being toxic and taking an entire lobby hostage. They get upset, they down all 4 and without the timer they can hold the game hostage forever. The only mistake the Devs made (and one it seems they are starting to change) is awarding anything to killers for bleeding people out. They've already changed it to where you can't complete an adept or any 4 k challenge with a bleed out. Wouldn't be surprised if in time they take away the ability to gain rank or anything from it. Which again, would be the best thing for the game since the objective is to sacrifice the survivors via hook, or use a Mori.
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Feel free to tag a developer/mod and ask them if a 4 man bleed out counts as a win for the killer and a loss for the survivors.
This topic may also help:
Just because you wish it wasn't so doesn't mean it isn't true.
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Thats what i was confused about too, some survivors are saying its toxic but than they slug themself for 4 minutes. I agree with you that its not toxic (as long we are not talking about slugging 4 survivors until the end of the game instead of hooking em)
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Accordiing to Wiki...
yup we are now quoting wikipedia.
Meanwhile on this very forum, there is a thread where it was confirmed by the devs that bleed outs don't count for adepts/challenges. It was changed, because they realized killers were using it as a way to get it done and it wasn't the purpose of the timer.
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If you've played Killer alot and got plenty of adepts... how are you arguing against slugging?
You've honestly never been screwed by hatch out of your adept 5 games in row? I don't even have many hours and I've been forced to play repeatedly at a handicap multiple times for trophies and tomes.
I don't slug either generally as rule unless there is something specific I'm going for. In fact, in normal games it's not uncommon for me to get 10 hooks, down the last survivors and then let them wiggle off and go free...
However when it comes to adepts or having to get a 4k while using unnerving presense or w/e, you bet your ass I'm slugging 😅
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I actually completely misread you OP, my bad dude... I thought you were saying survivors crawling away to hide is toxic xD
Personally I have no real annoyance with slugging inherently. There have been occasions I've found it annoying, but I get more annoyed when my remaining team mate can see me slugged, and when they get caught they lead the killer back to me, with no intention to pick up... guaranteeing the 4k...
It's like leave me alone brother... I'm trying give 1 of us a chance of getting hatch!
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The game counts 4 bleed outs as a win for killer and raises their MMR accordingly.
The game counts any death as a loss for survivor and decreases their MMR.
If the killer bleeds out 4 survivors, what do YOU think happens to the killer's MMR? What do YOU think happens to the survivor's MMR if they die via bleed out?
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After reading the comments here, I have came to the conclusion that you should always slug the 3º survivor the 4 minutes with no intention to hook him.
After all, you are going to be the bad guy whatever you do, even when it's the survivor himself who obviously don't want to get hooked.
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Comments are wild, slugging to me was always choosing a build and killer and go into a match trying to get 0 hooks and get everyone on the ground, either to hook them then for the 4k, or just to make them sit there for 4 mins to be toxic, this was. It was a killer generally doing things just to make survivors have a bad experience over simply winning.
Slugging nurse might still exist but when people talk about slugging now, they seem to mean "any time a killer downs a survivor and dost immediately hook them*
This is stupid, as often the complaints from survivors as to why slugging is toxic, is that it robs survivors of 4 mins- but then crawling away defeats this.
As with most things of this nature, ignore it, the only one who knows if you play fair to your own sense of morality is yourself, and in this game other players will generally have confirmation biases, or just be a bit entitled.
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oh yeah you do you king, i generally don't care i'll just hook but i definitely don't judge "slug for the 4k"ers anymore since the last survivor will still tbag a nice fair killer on hatch/at gate because they are that happy about their pity escape, AND after seeing people here that don't mind slugging if they are the reason for it (like crawling to a hook-dead zone)
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The person’s time being wasted is the slugged survivor, not the final survivor standing. It seems counterintuitive and against normal gameplay to give oneself to the killer.
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Part of the problem is people's logic.
"I slug because survivors tbag at gate/hatch."
"I tbag at the gate/hatch because killers slug."
What you mean is you are slugging this group of survivors, because a survivor in another game tbagged at the gate/hatch. You mean that you are tbagging at the gate/hatch because a different killer in another game slugged you.
You are just carrying it on and taking something that happened in a previous game out on somebody new, and the cycle repeats.
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