STOP GENRUSH!!! Enough of favoring the role of survs!!
Comments
-
So we are just ignoring hit and run strats, splitting pressure, letting survivors go when they either are too strong in chase or reach a setup you can't reasonably chase in?
And then again how is it in that scenario when it is about not having CoH in play you will instantly get healed and never even need to heal yourself but when the scenario involves CoH this described scenario does not occur and you cannot get healed by teammate? Mate you are contradicting yourself...
0 -
The need to effectively cleanse so many totems that it was more time efficient to just ignore the perk? Which was a big mistake considering hex perks are designed to be stronger than others because they can be destroyed? Effectively removing that negativ of it?
6 -
Nothing has changed in regard of loops though. Just go to Lampkin Lane or the Game.
Stealthing was dead when they changed the lighting of the maps and removed moonlight offerings. Which was at patch 2.3.0... 5 years ago...
First page on the forum is full of threads complaining about killers "abusing" the new camp mechanic, singularity 3 genning and survivor mmr not working as intended...
0 -
If you ever played against someone hiding in the bushes in Dead Dawg or just sitting randomly in a corner you know that it is not easy to find hiding survivors when you have no clue where they could be, which is why you patrol objectives because they are usually nearby or not being usefull to the team. However if you have a survivor that just wants to play Blendette and hide in a corner all game long you will never find them, unless you throw the entire game to do nothing else, and even then you might not find them...
1 -
Ruin powerful? At 200% it regressed a gen at 1/2 the speed a single survivor required to repair. Whats powerful about that?
I mean, i could understand if you would complain about the old skill check Ruin. But the current passive one? Nothing is powerful about it.
Remember, Hex perks are supposed to be high risk, high reward perks. I don´t see the reward part.
2 -
I agree. Survivors could just ignore Ruin. Which speaks a lot about how "powerful" it was/is.
And yes, Hex perks should be stronger than normal perks. But they aren´t which is kinda the problem isn´t it? After all, they are supposed to be high risk, high reward perks. But literally every normal perk is stronger than Hex perks.
3 -
The reward was that it regressed gens at double speed AND skipped the kick requirement. The moment a killer pushed a survivor off a gen, it would make that gen start losing progress and at DOUBLE speed. It doesn't matter that that's half the speed survivors can progress with: It's an asymmetrical game, after all, and these speed weigh differently across the board.
But at 200%, it was solidly powerful. If the killer got a hook in before Ruin was found, it was a majorly uphill battle for survivors. Even after Undying was nerfed, Ruin was still a very consistent pick and in my opinion, it was very healthy.
But Ruin taking up to FIVE totems to cleanse was not okay, and from what I understand, it skyrocketed killer winrates as well.
I don´t see the reward part.
The average killer in this game does not see a lot of things.
9 -
Okay, i´m sure i said that somewhere in the past of this discussion. But i´ll say it again.
A killer who is constantly pushing survivors away from gens, is a killer who isn´t camping or tunneling. The 2 things survivors complain the most about these days. Undying Ruin was healthy, because a killer that used the combo only could benefit from said combo, by playing in a non camping/tunneling way.
Somehow i get the feeling that survivors don´t understand that the combo gave them exactly what they wanted all the time.
Also, remember its a 4vs1 game. No survivor would have had to cleanse all 5 totems alone. Thats like claiming a survivor has to repair all 5 gens alone...
3 -
That's the point, it was powerfull but cleansing that many totems was even more time consuming, so what exactly is your point here?
Yes some of the hex perks definitely are... Think of NOED or Devour for example... I agree that not all of them are that good, but Devour for sure, if this would not be cleansable it would be broken af.
3 -
no thats very bad of an idea but a 2 vs 8 is a good idea i think for you you just need to practice as it is a skill issue
0 -
The point is, that you could cleanse Ruin. But you didn´t had to cleanse it. Ruin was only affecting gens no one worked on. It only worked when the killer pushed survivors away from gens. Which in return required the killer to play in a way. Which most survivors would consider healthy: no camping, no tunneling.
What is bad about that? You could repair the gen, like nothing would affect it and didn´t had to worry about a camping or tunneling killer.
3 -
So you're telling me you don't need to unhook people and therefore leave the gen you are currently working on or what?
1 -
So you are telling me you only play as 2 survivors in a match or what?
1 -
Okay, i´m sure i said that somewhere in the past of this discussion. But i´ll say it again.
Undying Ruin was healthy, because a killer that used the combo only could benefit from said combo, by playing in a non camping/tunneling way.
And I've already told you that that was RUIN doing the work, not UNDYING. RUIN was healthy. UNDYING was not.
Undying just made it so that Ruin couldn't really be considered a hex anymore. And even after Undying was nerfed, Ruin + Undying was still a very commonly run combo with plenty of power in its corner. It never needed 5xUndying, 5xUndying just amped it up to a ridiculous degree.
What killed Ruin was the undeserved 50% nerf it got in 6.1. because BHVR decided to axe the meta. Same tragedy that struck Decisive Strike.
5 -
Lets agree to disagree.
You don´t see the benefit of Undying Ruin for survivors and I don´t see how that combo was bad for survivors.
So instead of going back and forth for ages, we just call it the day. Okay?
1 -
That was actually my introduction to playing the killer role. I started playing DbD in custom games with a pair of streamers and their Red/Purple ranked friends and Stealthing was still kind of meta back then.. We were all in a Discord call together too so we could also hear all the taunts and insults to boot.
Did it annoy me sometimes? Absolutely! But it also taught me a lot about map awareness, killer macro, and certain popular hiding spots that good survivors liked to use. Those experiences only made me a better Survivor and Killer in the end.
3 -
Ok so what exactly do the other two do? Usually 1 in chase 1 on hook two on gens... So you still loose progression on the gen you did until you went for the unhook? That was the most obvious problem with it, you just lost so much progress on the gen, but you could usually not finish it in time to still get the unhook safely.
0 -
Still does not change the point that if there are like 20 bushes they could hide in you just don't have the time to spend there looking in all of them, which means you either have an information perk to still find them, or slowdown to take the time, maybe, but usually you just look for someone easier to find, which is the most annoying thing, because you are doing nothing but wondering around...
0 -
Ok lets break this down. We assume that the rescuing survivor is working on the gen alone. Maybe 50% progress. Distance isn´t on the other end of the map, but a medium distance. So rescue takes roughly 30 seconds. Unhooked survivor can come back with you to the gen or go somewhere else. If you go straight back to the gen, with the rescued survivor, you spend like 1 Minute away from the gen and lost 30 seconds of progress. But now you repair at almost double speed. Which makes up for it and you repair the gen in less time than you spend rescuing or what it would have taken you, if you continued alone without going for the rescue.
0 -
Back then gens were 80 seconds, so 50% means 40 seconds left, with going there, unhooking, coming back with the other guy, maybe even healing, because there is not really that much progress left on the gen anyway, you will need to add an aditional 45-50 for actually repairing the gen from 0, and then only if the killer does not come back and interrupt it... Ruin just regressed a gen for 50%, that's massive... That's half of what pain rez can do nowadays and you're telling me this was not a strong perk? Like what? Also during all that time the killer probably has found another person to chase, most likely, and his gen is now regressing as well... Back then the icons were not in the hud, so you didn't even know that there was some gen regressing, so if the killer finished his chase and hooked the next guy his gen was probably at 0 until others even noticed the gen has been worked on... You could fully regress several gens and did not really have to go out of your way to stop and kick something, the perk was ridiculously good... Especially with Undying to just get rid of its downside of being easy to cleanse.
3 -
Yep, you´re right. We are better off without it. Back to camping and tunneling killers to avoid losing gen progress...
Sometimes i really wonder what the community wants.
1 -
Are you pretending like camping and tunneling wasn't a thing back then? Yeah sure, you would get less value with this, but then again you did not have a hud to tell you if someone is already going for unhook, so you probably have 2 people leaving their gens for the unhook only to see the killer staying there? Meanwhile you loose progress on gen, and obviously if you just face camp for no reason you don't get much out of the combo, but if you proxy camp you, which is still the more effective thing to do...
And even if they just chased normally, it was still way too much regression, think about it, pain rez is super strong and removes 100% of a gen at max, without the stays regressing, so thats 90 seconds, with ruin undying, you either had around 2 minutes bonus, because people needed to do so many dulls and run between them, if they found them right away, or just power through ruin and get at least the same amount in regression there... It is not that a perk that gives value if you take chases is a bad thing, it is the amount of regression it could give you that was completely insane..
2 -
I´m not pretending anything. But complaints about camping went down during the months of Undying Ruin. Instead we had tons of threads complaining about how impossible it is for a single survivor to cleanse 5 totems...
Did we have complaints about camping? Sure, but they were more like what we have now with people complaining about the anti-facecamp mechanic.
During that time i was very active with a totem hunter build and even remember some matches where i cleansed all 5 totems alone.
I still think that the amount of regression was a small price to pay for less camping/tunneling in the matches. And it was way healthier than what we got afterwards: the gen kick meta.
2 -
Yeah it's cause I got tired of saying 'more than 21 seconds' a long time ago and hadn't done the math in a while. I thought it was 21.666 instead until I redid the math, my bad.
The problem is that, with circle in the game, matches lasted longer. Boon time, travel time, healing time all added up, and especially since almost all boons were set up early, it meant that survivors spent the first seconds of the match (when they are the strongest and the killer has zero pressure) doing something other than gens.
And a lot of those boons got snuffed before they could even be used, which is purely wasted time. It's exactly the kind of 'secondary objective' killers have always asked for: slow down the game, keep survivors off gens, give us more time to kill.
So before, where matches lasted, say 12-15 minutes, killers screamed for nerfs and now matches are 6-9 minutes in a lot of cases.
Deleting healing only reverted the game back to pre-circle era: stay injured with perks that synergize with that (resilience and adrenaline) and bang out gens faster than the killer can snowball. The only difference is using MfT instead of dead hard in most cases.
On top of that, the gen kick meta completely ruined most killers chase ability, since kicking gens was vastly more important than chase in every game for about a year. Chase was completely optional during the 3 gen CoBruption meta. So now, with eruption inflation in MMR, killers are generally going against better survivors, and are severely lacking in the chase skill to keep up. And instead of examining their own gameplay and getting better at chase, they are here on the forums screaming for nerfs every single patch.
6 -
Okay, but if they'd release a perk tomorrow that increased repair speed by 50%, you'd also get fewer MFT complaints.
Doesn't mean the problem's gone or diminished.
1 -
MfT, DH, WoO, perk that speeds repair by 50%. Kinda looks like you can have both at the same time, while not leaving the meta we currently have.
So no, the MfT complaints wouldn´t diminish. Would you see also complaints about the repair perk? Sure! But you would see complaints about both perks.
You are also missing the point, that the Undying Ruin combo created more variety on survivor builds. Not the copy of a copy of the copy of a streamers build. I´m all for more variety in perk builds. Seeing the same 6 perks every match is kinda boring. At least for me. The Undying Ruin combo gave the chance for more varied builds, without getting weird looks from the teammates. "dude, why are you using this?!"
I´ll die on that hill defending Undying Ruin. Because i really didn´t like the Eruption meta and i sure as hell don´t like the current stacking 3-4 slowdown perks meta.
2 -
Regardless of anything you said here, dh is just boring to play against when it's hard meta. I even use dh because it's fun to say dh out loud in a swf but it's tiring to say "dead hard" in the most monotonous way possible 8 times a game as killer .
"Oh? DH?... DH, wow.
top healing times were op, it would show immense bias to suggest otherwise. Self healing being 5X better than altruistic healing destroys major breakpoints in a match. Boons continue to have little to no real counterplay but most of those perks are bad because of that limitation, CoH being limited to swf/solos with brain and expo limited to swf(but being immensely powerful when used correctly). Boons just need to be base kit adjusted so they can be balanced well.
BNP might as well be the same or even better in certain situations
Prove is still good and was adrenaline level before the nerf(like a common scenario in a close game that can solo clutch the entire game) It's always been better to split on gens but prove can delete a valuable gen with miniscule solo queue coordination.
I am not agreeing with these killer players here, they are just bad, just like most 90%(ATLEAST) of dbd players are terrible. They will whine and complain and act like they understand more than they do. I was a biased killer player for my first 6 months playing but I genuinely despise how most killers play now(like bots), that's not a reason to dispute the power level of certain things on survivor side however.
But don't try and deny things that were absurd on survivor just like I don't deny how absurd the current state of blights add-ons are.
0 -
Everything was healthier than the Gen kick meta, but the problem stays that it made games last way too long, the game delay was just too much... And hardcore tunneling is basically never the most efficient strategy, it is always juggling between two survivors because that way you don't have the downtime of waiting for the unhook.
2 -
But you had the same 3-4 perks on every single killer... Maybe survivor variety increased, but killer variety was 0,because it was a combo wort running on every single killer...
0 -
The meta before was not staying injured but using a busted medkit to heal in like 8-10 seconds without perks... People could have done gens injured all the time but decided to not do it... Also the sniffing cost the killer almost always more time than the survivors because he had to find the damn thing and walk there and snuff it and so on...
0 -
So no, the MfT complaints wouldn´t diminish.
No, they would. They absolutely would. You stop caring about lesser issues when much bigger issues present themselves.
Which was the problem with Ruin + old Undying, since it was so overpowered that it made all other issues pale by comparison. What you're spinning is basically a remastered version of the 'just make killers brutally overpowered and maybe they'll camp/tunnel a little bit less' adage.
6 -
2 Perks. The combo completely removed kicking gens, as you said. Which gave also more room for killer perk variety.
1 -
How is something that can be completely ignored from the survivor side, because it does literally nothing while you do your objective, overpowered? If it was old Ruin, where you had to hit skill checks, i would say yes. But the passive Ruin? Thats something you could completely ignore. As it had no effect when you repaired gens.
You want all the benefits of reduced camping/tunneling but no downsides.
2 -
Because any time the killer applied any pressure, it gave them free, substantial regression. Gen kick meta, but without actually having to kick gens. Ruin, prior to its nerf, was that strong. Which is fine as long as it is a hex perk, but Undying effectively made it NOT a hex perk.
Ruin was really substantial prior to 6.1, you don't seem to get that. It was legitimately really powerful. Which is GOOD, but not so long as Undying gave it up to 70 seconds of cleanse time.
6 -
How is taking 2 perks free?
Thats like taking CoH, SC and BK and say "look, free infinite fast self healing!" Its not free. Its sacrificing half the build in order to slow gens down by constantly switching targets. Which isn´t effortless as you claim. Because it also meant to break chases earlier. Giving survivors more time to heal up.
Again, regressing at half the speed a single (!) survivor takes to repair isn´t strong. Because if you say that, then you also mean that 2 survivors on a single gen = OP
0 -
You clearly didn't play at that point.
The meta before circle was to stay injured with resilience and 99% your heal because hemorrhage didn't drain healing progress. So survivors would stay injured literally as long as possible, then finish their heal mid chase when it was clear they'd get hit.
It wasn't using medkits to heal to full super fast. In fact, a lot of survivors would use self care to top off their heal and bring a toolbox with bnp. Self healing anywhere, any time was the value at that point, and even with a medkit the focus wasn't speed, it was charges. Just like it is now, except you get, at most maybe 2 heals out of it instead of 3 guaranteed (partly thanks to new hemmhorage).
The 'stay healthy' meta came about with circle, since you couldn't carry that with you and weren't guaranteed to be able to top off that heal mid chase. The trade off was the travel and setup time.
6 -
Free, as in, 'don't have to break chase/spend a couple of seconds to kick gen'. You didn't even need to be there. If you had someone on hook while Ruin was active and you chased a second survivor off a gen, making it regress, a third survivor letting go of their gen to go for the rescue would also start losing progress, even if the killer was nowhere near. That kind of global pressure was insanely valuable, and is why Ruin continued to be a frequent pick, up until it needlessly got axed in 6.1.
Again, regressing at half the speed a single (!) survivor takes to repair isn´t strong. Because if you say that, then you also mean that 2 survivors on a single gen = OP
Regression and progression speeds are not equivalent and should never be, otherwise you get infinite matches. The base regression rate is chosen for a reason, and flatly doubling it is -very- impactful. It's why We'll Make It is still a solid pick despite being relatively conditional. Call of Brine was a big part of the genkick meta despite it -only- contributing the +100% regression rate to kicked gens, as opposed to Ruin, which did that and more.
Ruin was incredibly powerful for how much it could slow survivors down if they didn't deal with the hex, and Undying could make it practically impossible to deal with the hex. That's why Undying had to be changed, so that it worked better with stacking perks like Devour Hope, but didn't accidentally lock down an entire match by how powerful it could be with Ruin.
Ruin was fine as a hex perk specifically because it was a hex, but Undying sometimes removed the 'hex' part and just made it a passive.
4 -
3 perks: ruin undying and TInkerer mostly with corrupt, that was what ever single player ran...
3 -
I played since 2019, so don't give me that... The meta was using medkits since healing took so little time,yeah some people did that but it was nowhere near meta...
0 -
4 > 1 pretty simple math. You have to work 4X if not more to win no help nothing you have to constantly think can I commit this chase or do I have to defend gens do I have to tunnel etc. How that's skill issue?
Im all alone no-one to help me killer is truly the survivor. My winrate is 70% I think that's ok Im not sweatiest player. I can always get 2K from bad match but so much stress and so much work I want someone to help a teammate.
1 -
Then it isn´t free. As i said, the killer would have to constantly switch targets. What does switching targets mean other than breaking the chase to go for something different?
Btw. you didn´t answer if you consider 2 survivors on a gen OP.
0 -
Thats... 4 perks.
So the killer breaks the chase to go after the gen with the most progress, because of Tinkerer. You can usually see the killer, even without Terror Radius. So you start running and the killer chases you, while your gen starts regressing until another Tinkerer triggers and the killer needs to break the chase to go for another gen... Back to square 1.
1 -
Then it isn´t free. As i said, the killer would have to constantly switch targets.
You kind of have to do that anyway, since while your primary target is on hook, you don't get any value out of staring them down and waiting for an unhook.
Unless you mean switching targets mid-chase, which I already pointed out is not necessary. If you have one on hook and one in chase, one of the other two survivors has to let go of their gen to go for the rescue, causing both the gen of the person you're chasing to regress, and the gen that the rescuer was working on to regress.
Btw. you didn´t answer if you consider 2 survivors on a gen OP.
Oh, I thought it was a rhetorical question, considering everyone knows 2 survivors on one gen is really inefficient due to the co-op penalty.
I didn't realise you were this unfamiliar with the game.
4 -
Some killers yes, some not, but most maps offer some good line of sight blockers to get quite close...
0 -
Oh personal attacks. Well thx for the conversation.
Have a nice week!
1 -
But it still requires the killer to constantly switch mid chase. Which should be considered a good thing.
But somehow it seems survivors are complaining that they don´t get tunneled.
1 -
Constantly getting interrupted doing your objective and not getting any progress done while the game just continues to get dragged out is just not a fun experience... With the new undying where you only need to cleanse two totems to get rid of ruin it would be a lot fairer than before, if ruin wasn't as bad as it currently is, at least cleansing them is a lot easier now.
1 -
Everything has gray zones. Depends on how much progression people can make.
If Gen time is increased by half, but pallets increased by double. Yes Gens become much slower, but you cant make progression with hooks, you would not like it.
Old Ruin/Undying giving similar thing when killers put pressure, yes killers dont tunnel, its only my Gen regressed by ~40% when I go for unhook/heal a Dwight. It doesnt matter if survivors have 10 hooks state and killer play fair if they cant make a progress toward their goal.
0 -
Then what is fun?
Old Ruin with the hard skill checks wasn´t fun.
Killer tunneling isn´t fun.
Killer constantly switching targets isn´t fun.
Only doing gens also isn´t fun.
So what is actually fun?
1 -
Thats the thing i don´t understand. I´ve seen survivors complain about a 12 hook match, where everyone died with 25k+ bloodpoints but be happy about a gen rush match, where they all escape and barely make 12k bloodpoints. With no killer interaction at all. Where is the fun in that? Its a pvp game. The more interaction both sides have, the more fun it should be. But turns out, that this also doesn´t make people happy.
2
