Is this really the state of affairs in DBD?
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I have been saying this forever, and that they need to balance the game around hooks and chases instead of kills. It would eliminate tunneling and camping in its entirety. My proposal has always been to do the following:
- Eliminate the 4%, its a dumb mechanic RNG based and just lets survivors "DC" without taking the penalty.
- Deliverance can stay
- Survivors now share the 1st hook state, meaning that if you hook a survivor, then hook that same survivor, you burned through 2 of the teams shared hook states.
- Survivors only enter second stage after the team's first hook states have been burned through.
- Remove the AFC mechanic they just added.
- Eliminate the basekit BT
- Create a new mechanic called Ethereal (or whatever)
- Survivors gain Ethereal after being unhooked for 25 seconds, deactivates in endgame
- Ethereal does the following:
- The survivor has no collision with the killer
- The survivor is invisible to the killer
- The survivor makes no noise to the killer
- The survivor leaves no bloodspots
- The survivor is immune to all killer powers
- The survivor moves at 300% movement speed
- The survivor sees the aura of all other survivors (even through blindness)
- The survivor is unable to do any action other than heal, be healed, or unhook a survivor
- Basically, the survivor gets "spirits" power.
- Rebalance the maps/gen speeds/killers now that tunneling and camping is effectively impossible.
This would make it so you can't camp to win, because you need to burn through 6 hook states to kill a survivor while camping instead of just 3. Meaning that your team will have PLENTY of time to finish 5 gens, open the gates, and attempt a rescue.
Tunneling is also effectively impossible, because the Ethereal status will make it literally impossible for 25 seconds. During this time, the survivor should have plenty of time to find a teammate far away from the killer and run to them to get healed. They also get a "timeout" for the rest of the time so that the killer can confidently know that the survivor can't be on a gen for at least 25 seconds, giving them time to start a chase with a different survivor, or to chase the person who unhooked them.
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If you get hit off the hook, you get a speed boost that gives you almost as much distance as old DS gives you. Old DS was 5 second stun, 1 second stuck in animation, so you got 4 seconds of distance, for a total of 16 meters of distance. Getting hit right off hook, puts the killer in 2.7 second cooldown hit animation, for 1.8 seconds you move 6 m/s for 0.9 you move 4 m/s for a total of 14.4 meters of distance. That amount of difference amounts to 1 extra second of distance that DS gives you. If you can't get to a pallet or a window or something in 18 seconds of distance gained, you aren't doing it in 19 seconds.
On top of that OTR lasts longer, and you can't be slugged to counter it, and best of all, the secondary effect keeps working even if you do an action.
OTR is still way better.
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Survivors are always a target, dont expect mercy at the cost of the killer.
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Are you serious?
The game has constantly became more killer sided since its release. I have not touched the game for over 2 years, and when i came back i was very suprised how extrem they buffed killer. I mean, its not subtle, rather a massiv slam.
Every major strong perk from those days (DS, DH, Irion will, Spinechill just to name a few) are gutted to mediocre or even awful. Healing speed is much slower. Items got nerf so much, its not even comparable anymore.
Every reworked map is so much more killer friendy. Just look at Haddonfield or Thompson House for example.
Maps have MUCH less pallets (dont even try to argue, i reseached and yes, i counted those by hand).
Killer catch up much faster after a hit (duration of sprint after hit got reduced by a lot).
Jungle gyms are nerfed (strong gyms are much more rare then weaker gyms).
I could go on and on and on, the list feels almost endless.
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The sixty seconds is too long to keep up with. A good killer could wipe an entire team in that span of time. Nurses and Blights are known for it. But you're right about the five seconds. Three seconds doesn't do any good for resetting chases unless you happen next to a pallet.
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Spinechill was made basekit. The perk was also buffed to entirely eliminate stealth killers as a threat. You're notified the killer is near, period. No line of sight needed.
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What're you on about?
Are you talking about the visual terror radius? Because that's no different from the aural one.
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Yes it is. Sounds can be covered up or not noticed. They can be quiet or ambiguous. A giant blinking red light on your character? Extremely noticeable, no room for ambiguity, it is more reliable and more practical than the audible terror radius. It's why every major content creator uses it despite few of them being hard of hearing.
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Why do you consider survivors not doing anything for 60 seconds a bad thing? I'll gladly take a DS stun if it means the survivor stays off gens, doesn't heal others and doesn't cleanse totems for 60 seconds. They're throwing the game to the Killer's side if they do it.
Not directed at you but for the general thread I find the survivor role displays more toxicity when playing Killer than what I encounter from the Killer role when playing survivor. If we're going to discuss toxicity then we have to mention that since toxicity breeds toxicity.
I'm not excusing toxicity from either role but if survivors that bullied and BMed less experienced Killers were called out for it more that would have a positive effect. Or, better yet, people should just stop gloating after winning. Take the win and move on without BMing.
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It's a big difference, enough of one I assume you're just being sarcastic (also deleted any semblance of stealth from Onryo). There's a reason every competitive player and every streamer turns it on. With that in mind it doesn't change the fact that it was made basekit.
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By using it offensively, it makes it so the rest of the team can make up for said missing efficiency. One being a nuisance so that attention is removed from 1-3 others. The obvious downside is that they become a target for tunneling once DS/OTR are out of the way. It also has less of an impact when not in a swf, since its harder to convey that you're purposely wasting the killer's time (and the rest should be taking advantage of that)
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You can theoretically also miss the visual indicator, it's about as hard to miss as the TR.
You can't be serious. You're upset that survivors have a TR indicator, which has been in the game from day one?
It's also not basekit Spinechill still. Spinechill gives way more info AND an action speed boost.
They can't make up for it. Two people cannot work as efficiently as three people. A survivor literally doing nothing is lost efficiency no matter what.
Also, sidenote, @scorpio : I'd quote your post, but it's on another page, so I can't. Anyway: You can't have DS disable on someone else getting hooked, it'd create a 'tunnel-for-free' scenario if the killer camps the hook and puts the unhooker on it before tunnelling the first survivor again.
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They absolutely can when only one person is in chase, and the other 3 are working on gens (On comms to coordinate the strategy.) Part of why Deliverance is strong is because it can be used to remove one person from going for the unhook, its a similar principle. Like I said, its something that is more effective with SWF, since they can tell each other to stay on gens while the OTR/DS user can bodyblock a hit and either run away (having bought space, which allows either them or the original person being chased to glue to a gen) or force the DS accordingly (much more difficult with the reduced duration, but can still be used to purposely go down next to a pallet.) Two people not needing to detach from their gens is a net increase in efficiency while the one can even get tunneled on purpose (crazy, I know) to get the third person out of being chased and bolster efficiency back to 3 people able to work on gens (like the beginning of the game, aka when survivors are strongest efficiency wise.)
Just to reiterate, again, this is something you don't really see with solos, but rather SWFs you face at 3am on a weekday. The less macro game that the killer has (both in their kit and as a player) the more effective it is.
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They absolutely can when only one person is in chase
Okay, but if there's only one person in chase, and it's the one with the active DS...
That's tunnelling.
That's not an 'offensive use', that's the perk fulfilling the express purpose it was shaped for.
the OTR/DS user can bodyblock a hit and either run away (having bought space, which allows either them or the original person being chased to glue to a gen) or force the DS accordingly
I will agree with you on OTR, that one is a problem. It's part of why I hate the move from DS to OTR as it's literally worse for both sides of the fence. OTR actually has offensive use, which is worse for killers, and it can be disabled by tunnelling harder, which is worse for survivors. Baffling design decision, honestly.
But for DS, this doesn't work, because the survivor wastes their own time more than they do the killer's. And no, there is nothing you can do, short of hacking, that can 'force' a DS. If a survivor throws themselves at you, all you have to do is not pick them up and continue chasing your original target. The downed survivor will be incapacitated for a while, and unless they have UB, they will need to be picked up by someone else. It's major time loss for them.
Two people not needing to detach from their gens is a net increase in efficiency
An increase over what, though? Because without the gambit you're describing, I'm counting three people not needing to detach from their gens, not two.
From what I understand, you're describing a situation where Survivor A unhooks Survivor B, while C and D are on gens. Killer chases A, then B either gets healed first and then tries to block the killer to try and draw aggro, or blocks the killer immediately. In this situation, though, as long as the killer doesn't actively change target to B, that's a persistent 2 survivors on gens.
But if A unhooks B, and B goes to repair gens, the killer is just in a chase with A while there's 3 survivors on gens. So I don't know where this net increase in efficiency supposedly comes from.
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You've almost got it, but my point was about reducing the killer's efficiency while still maintaining survivor efficiency. As for forcing DS, getting into a locker is how you force the killer to either eat the DS or abandon chase (unless they wait it out, which is even more time wasted.) Even just getting downed near a pallet organically has a good chance of DSing the killer into a reset since everyone thinks its a trash perk now and it is less expected. All the survivor has to do is not make it obvious they have DS (bonus points if they OTR bodyblock the killer before using the DS) and they are costing the killer valuable time while the other 1-3 survivors are slamming gens.
Also something to note about the scenario is that you are assuming 3 survivors can be on gens the whole time after an unhook has taken place, which would require one to go for the save (and presumably one more in chase) which is the important distinction: its an efficiency "reset" after the snowball macro effect has started (survivor hooked and needing rescue.)
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You're projecting. Nowhere did I say I'm upset. I'm merely stating that the spinechill TR detector was moved to basekit. Also, a visual TR option has not been in the game since day 1. At this point I think you're just trolling, lol
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I don’t see why I need to care for Survivors’ fun at the expense of mine.
I also don’t expect the Killer to not tunnel me when I play Survivor.
MMR doesn’t make sense and devs fixing lobby dodging will not fix it or they would have done it long ago.
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Gens fly too fast if you try to be mr niceguy and spread pressure imo
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You've almost got it, but my point was about reducing the killer's efficiency while still maintaining survivor efficiency.
But you're not maintaining survivor efficiency when you've got an extra person in chase. You're only maintaining survivor efficiency if the only person in chase is the one with the DS, which, again, is tunnelling. Which is just DS doing the one job it was designed for.
As for forcing DS, getting into a locker is how you force the killer to either eat the DS or abandon chase
Again, if you don't -chase- the person with the active DS, it does nothing.
Even just getting downed near a pallet organically has a good chance of DSing the killer into a reset since everyone thinks its a trash perk now and it is less expected.
You mean it's a problem that DS can be used if the killer makes the mistake of activating it? That's like complaining about getting instadowned for triggering Haunted Grounds.
All the survivor has to do is not make it obvious they have DS (bonus points if they OTR bodyblock the killer before using the DS) and they are costing the killer valuable time while the other 1-3 survivors are slamming gens.
And all the killer has to do to avoid it is NOT pick up the person that was unhooked recently. If you chase after someone else and a recently unhooked survivor comes in to try and draw your attention, it is immediately, blatantly obvious they have DS active. If you ignore them and chase and down your original, non-DS target, then you can switch to the person with DS, because it will likely time out before you can down them.
Unless you're getting two downs in under 60 seconds, in which case you're winning anyway.
Also something to note about the scenario is that you are assuming 3 survivors can be on gens the whole time after an unhook has taken place, which would require one to go for the save (and presumably one more in chase) which is the important distinction: its an efficiency "reset" after the snowball macro effect has started (survivor hooked and needing rescue.)
You still need that for your scenario too, though.
Spinechill only had TR detection for a short while, while they were developing visual TR, for the express purpose of fulfilling this role. And even then, Spinechill has additional functionality on top of it. Again: Spinechill offers MORE info, plus an action speed boost. Survivors got neither. Spinechill didn't get made basekit.
TR detection has been in the game since day one. It's the entire purpose of the TR.
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While I agree with your points here, you're fighting an uphill battle, unfortunately.
All of the counters you mention require the killer to think or use game sense, instead of just 'follow survivor's exact pathing and swing when close'. That's asking an awful lot over the typical 'kick every gen on cooldown' kind of play style that far too many killers seem to prefer here.
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Heya :) Her mom let's her play, and I stay out of it, as she's not my child. She's not related to me and is my BF niece so I do not get involved. Not my business about her age and playing. I just don't care lol. They're drama central and I stay outtttt.
She plays Spirit, Blight and Nurse, gets regular 4Ks and plays a lot.
I'd play with friends, however, I don't want to get into it too much on here, but there is always a problem with me being hit on by men and women alike, it causes a lot of problems so I prefer to play alone or with my family members if they play. It's not worth it to me. Once they find my pictures and find out who I really am, then it's not fun. It's a nice suggestion though thank you :)
Their behavior is far more toxic than any tunneling or BMing. Haha I'll take crazy killers over that nonsense.
In the end after playing for a few days, and looping my attempted tunneler for 5 gens, I have decided that -
I find that tunneling just hurts the killer more than it helps them. A lack of damage distribution is going to simply result in generators being rushed. Forcing survivors to heal, to hook rescue, and to pick up other teammates off the ground is ultimately going to slow the game down in the long run. This is what my niece does and this is why she wins. (not the tunneling, the slowing the game down) She has around 2K hours.
When they waste time tunneling me and don't know how to drop chase, then whine about it, that's their choice. They gotta live with it. I've greatly reduced my play time and it's a lot better now.
Oh and with the vaulting STILL not fixed it's making me stay away even more. :s
OH and I can't play killer, the fov is absolutely ridiculous and it makes me throw up. Even my bf who plays nearly all his own games (the ones he makes) in first person can't tolerate it. He saw it and just kept making these comments in disbelief. ><
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Feel free to not use the strategy I brought up. You keep trying to pidgeonhole it into not being possible/efficient and ignoring how bodyblocking works. Cheers.
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What do you mean 'trying to pigeonhole it'?
What is incorrect about what I'm arguing?
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I told you that it involves being tunnelled on purpose, which you kept ignoring. You also assume things like the person unhooking is suddenly on another gen and there is no situation where the killer does something like return to the hook.
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I told you that it involves being tunnelled on purpose, which you kept ignoring.
Yeah, because the killer can simply opt not to.
I've seen this strategy in action, and it's been attempted against me multiple times, but every time it just results in someone spending extra time slugged and not getting any work done because I simply did not fall for the bait.
You also assume things like the person unhooking is suddenly on another gen and there is no situation where the killer does something like return to the hook.
If you are chasing the unhooked survivor, the person who did the unhooking is free to go for the gen. But again, that requires you chasing the unhooked survivor, which is tunnelling.
The absolute maximum the survivor can get out of this 'offensive use' of DS, is a single bodyblock, at the expense of either a heal or time spent slugged, in contrast to them spending up to 60 seconds on a gen. I don't understand where you are seeing this increased efficiency.
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I can't explain it any more clearly. I get the feeling that no amount of posts will get through, so I'm going to just stop here.
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DBD is really at the lowest it has ever been. Too many survivor nerfs and killer buffs.
It's honestly unplayable as survivor.
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pvp game.. both sides want to win.. some players want to win others dont..
no realistic way to balance this game after 7 years.. either change your "view" and ask yourself why do you play the game or take several breaks..
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It's not the haven for survivors it used to be. I ran into a bully squad the other day and pieced them up on their last generator. The good news for killer matches like this is that they aren't the horrendous experiences they used to be. That team, in old DBD, would have ended the game in about seven minutes total with pallets and flashlights to spare. Close to five if they ran a few BNPs or gen perks.
They did run one DS and used it aggressively that game. Lost track of the time, it had to be around forty seconds or so. At the end of the game I left the last two slugged and guarded one because that's what you have to do if you're playing in a competitive mindset. I don't think nuSurvivors remember but that's what had to happen because squads would run unbreakable, ADR, and DS.
The culture around DBD has changed. I like that it's less competitive because then I just play a good host as killer and try to give my survivors a good time, but when I see groups like that it's hard for those instincts not to kick in. The first person I knocked out I started giving targeting priority too just to have one person out. It would take about eight or nine more minutes for the game to end so they're just waiting on their party to finish the stall-grind.
A slight buff to survivor would probably help overall, but bringing back survivor sided perks and mechanics won't be the way forward on that and I don't think that'll bring people back to the game.
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I don't think it has ever been a haven for survivors, but devs have balanced around top survivors -but- not doing the same for killer. Most survivors, according to when I do play, never see the gates opened. There is even proof that killers are insanely more overpowered such as Blight with a thousand winstreak. Solo survivors have no way to use any skills to win because ALL of it has been nerfed. Even self-care or the solo survivor part of Circle of Healing. Why should an essential survival perk -require- a SWF? This is -why- it is not as popular and until BHVR tries to start balancing more and make the game actually accessible to everyone then they'll never bring players back. 100% survivor bonus.
The game is soooo stale. You basically know within 30 seconds of the game starting how it is going to pane out. Oh, it's a Blight that has Lethal Purser and downs your teammate before you even have time to find a gen. That is so unbalanced.
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People don't really need to defend if they choose to tunnel. It's a part of the game and it's the most optimal way to play almost every killer on every map. Its usually not personal and most killers that tunnel do so because they want to play efficiently and give themselves the best chance to win. If survivors rush gens in order to do the same, it's no different.
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Its not even close to the same, nice try with the gas lighting though.
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How are they not the same? They're both the most efficient way of playing the way in almost any situation and also incredibly unfun for the other side. Like I don't understand why one is fine and just 'playing the game' and the other one isn't.
Also, don't use the term gaslighting in such a way, it waters down a very serious term.
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he must only play survivors because it is the same.
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The game was strictly survivor sided for its first five years.
But you're right, making comebacks would be pretty interesting. As it is, flipping a match is pretty rare and relies on the entire team dialing in.
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Generators can be completed too quickly for perfect sequential hooking to be a realistic option. As it stands, most killers on the roster need to take what they can get as fast as they can get it or they lose.
Once the current situation is finally acknowledged and a solution is formulated for quick gen completion, THEN more strict anti-tunnel measures could be implemented in a fair/progressive way, but until that time arrives you can count on things staying the same.
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I mean most people don't like tunnelling being a thing, killers included, so I'm sure many people would be open to the idea of BHVR making tunnelling impossible, but they would need to give killers something big to make up for it.
1) They could drastically slow down gens, adding 20+ seconds to them to give killers the time needed to actually chase and hook different people with 4 survivors in the game for longer. However, survivors don't like spending ages on gens so I'm not sure this would be a popular fix.
2) They could give some hefty buffs to killers' chase ability so they can end chases much quicker and make it much, much harder for even good survivors to last that long in chase. However, I doubt many good survivors would like this either as chases are one of the funner aspects for them and drastically reducing their length wouldn't feel good.
3) Basically the same as 2, they could reduce the number of pallets on maps, the size of maps and make more windows less safe so killers can end chases quicker but this has the same downsdes as 2.
It's clear most survivors don't want tunnelling in the game and I can see why, it feels awful to be on the receiving end. However, I don't think they'd be all too happy about the balance changes that would need to be done to make up for removing it.
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How is Spine Chill basekit? Because of the visual heartbeat? Its exactly the same as the normal heartbeat.
Old spinechill was the only counter against Spirit and Nurse (maybe Iron will also) and on top of extremly effective versus any stealth killer. It even worked against T1 myers.
An experiecend spine chill player could loop a killer effective even without looking or using any form of check spots by simply looking for spine chill at high wall tiles. Spine chill gave you an extrem speed at vaulting which was very big, especially in combo with Resi.
May i ask when you started playing DBD?
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About 3 years ago seriously, though I technically started at launch. I'm not talking about literally every portion of the perk, I'm talking about what he was talking about. Naturally there are other perks of spinechill. We aren't talking about the original spinechill with the vault boosts and such.
Spinechill used to be annoying because everyone ran it and killers would always have to crab walk to every generator to the point where it was becoming a meme in itself. They then super buffed spinechill where it was no longer counterable (guaranteed knowledge when the killer is approaching) but at the cost of losing vault speed bonus. You still kept the speed boosts for other things when the killer was looking at you. The biggest benefit hands down to spinechill though was the TR warning - no one really cares about extra objective speed when being looked at. Anyway, they temporary changed SC to include a visual TR distance feature but in a broken state since it gave you pixel perfect distance information. However, this was never intended on being a part of the perk - just a bandaid fix for accessibility. They eventually turned that visual TR into basekit and balanced it to fix the perfect distance information (well, most of it). Spinechill kept its hard counter to stealth killers in the process.
At the end of the day, Spinechill users didn't lose anything that was actually intended to be part of the perk outside of the vault speed (visual TR is basekit). However, they did gain the ability to hard counter any stealth killer. What everyone is up in arms about is losing a busted accessibility feature that gavean incredible advantage over people not using it. It's the accessibility feature that got balance, it was never intended to be on a perk to begin with. Now the accessibility is just a minor advantage, but no longer an overwhelmingly broken one like the one they temporarily attached to spinechill to buy them time to make a proper one.
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Mental Gymnastics: The act of trying to justify actions or validate opinions not supported by any facts. A means of dealing with cognitive dissonance.
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okay
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They're not the same for the Survivor getting tunnelled out because it ends their game really early. Maybe it's just me, but I don't enjoy being back in the lobby in 5 minutes or less after touching a single gen for 30 seconds, with only a few thousand blood points to show for it. The Killer always gets to play the full game they queued up for, regardless of how the game ends. That's the difference.
I can't speak for all Survivors, but I "gen rush" as soon as the game begins because it may be the only chance I get to actually do something to contribute before I'm immediately tunnelled out.
I'm so glad I've finished collecting all my Halloween cosmetics. Now I can finally stop playing the game for a bit. I don't plan to be back until the event is over and every match isn't a total sweatfest.
I mean, I'll be back on Halloween to play a couple of scratched mirror Myers matches. But aside from that I'm taking a break because I'm not having much fun at the moment.
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I dont think there is a good solution to tunneling other then the old DS (or DS right now but basekit) but i am not sure why killer would need something for compensation. Its a perk slot and it is only relevant if the killer is tunneling. We should not pretend that the only way to win as killer is to use faul methods.
There are already on most maps such a low amount of pallets, removing those would just make the game even more miseriable for survivors, especially for those who play solo and/or just for "fun".
Ballancing the game around 60% winrate for killer did nothing good so far. Same can be said about the MMR.
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In my opinion, old DS should come back, but with a difference. It only activates when the survivor is put into the dying state. It could take the whole match, but as soon as the survivor is downed, the 60 seconds starts counting
Conspicuous action still apply from the moment they leave the hook
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A quick reminder that getting tunneled off the hook is still a very big issue and common in most of my games. So is trashtalk (at least we have a solution to that by simply ignore or deactive the chat)
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This is the issue thought, its not once in a few games its like nearly every game.
The best advice I have is if you're not enjoying the game take a break. I was getting to the point where I wasn't enjoying my matches so I've taken a break and playing different games.
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This is not true, a good team with someone that has DS can just send that person to take away the killers set up, yes it does not apply with all killers but for example, while I have DS I can disable singularity pods, clease hags traps, disable trappers traps, solve pinheads box, seal demos portals, set up turrets at loops against xeno, disable skull merchants drones, disable sadakos tvs and all this with the security that if the killer tries to stop me I have a safeguard (this may not work against sadako as she can condemn you tho). You clearly do not know how to use DS offensibly and it shows, you can absolutelly make up for the 60 seconds you are not doing gens, if only two people are on gens but one destroyed the whole killers setup while having a escape card, then that killer lost all future pressure and has to take in time to set up again.
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