Twins rework?
Since they said Twins would be reworked how many other killers have gotten changes and updates instead? I would guess that the low pick rate is the reason they keep stalling this?
Twins rework or Pyramid Head addon pass. What comes first? Take a guess and I update this thread when we have an answer.
Comments
-
Either that or they're not happy with what they currently have. These trickster changes were left field though especially considering his low pick rate
4 -
They're probably stalling it because reworking Twins is going to end up being much more involved, akin to Doctor or Freddy reworks.
Contrast that to the upcoming Trickster changes, which are all essentially number changes. Big number changes, but still just number changes. Depending on how well their data files are set up, that could theoretically have taken 1 dev only 1 hour once they'd decided what they were going to do.
1 -
The devs can be working on Twin changes as well as other killer changes. Trickster likely was just easier to finish up considering a lot of the changes are just number adjustments.
1 -
They said it was coming early 2024.
You checked your calendar recently?
3 -
We already know when it's coming, which implies it's close to done.
My assumption would be that the Trickster changes could've been started, finished, tested, and added to the game before they finalised the Twins rework. Considering how broken and buggy the Twins are, I don't even think there's anything nefarious or whatever at play, I think it just kinda makes sense.
If they can do more between now and the Twins rework happening, makes sense for them to do it, right? No reason to hold off on making good changes just because.
0 -
Trickster is realistically just some numbers tweaks and addon changes
- going from 4.4 to 4.6
- Increasing knife throwing speed
- Removing recoil (set the recoil value to 0)
- main event duration
- main event knives required
All of these are just numbers tweaks that can be done in a few minutes realistically. The Addon changes are mostly also number changes, minus a few new/reworked addons.
Twins is likely going to be getting an entire rework like from old freddy to new freddy. There's basically like a few stages of reworks:
- Number tweaks (I.E., this or trapper or sadako)
- Medium rework (I.E. Doctor whose power mostly stayed the same, or hillbilly who just added the overheat mechanic)
- Complete rework (I.E. freddy whose power was completely changed)
0 -
No matter what, Freddy will come afterwards.
0 -
Skull Merchant would like a word with you. As would Sadako. Both got extensive reworks. Skull Merchant got 2! They had the time to rework her twice (understandably a high priority) but they couldn't do anything for Twins in that time? Seems unlikely. It's more likely the rework was cancelled.
After 1 1/2 years, actually we're getting close to 1 3/4 years, they should have something ready. I mean, that's enough time for them to design 2 whole killers from scratch. A few changes to Twins can't take that long. Even some small changes would already improve that whole situation drastically. But they didn't do anything.
How about we allow people to switch immediately back to Charlotte after getting a down with Victor for starters? This cooldown is ridiculous and doesn't serve any purpose other than making them a nightmare to play. Who doesn't love playing killer, DBD's time management simulater and having to wait 8 seconds before you are even allowed to make your way across the map to collect your slug?
1 -
How do you know that?
0 -
They already confirmed Twins are not getting a giant rework. They’re getting tweaked with the slugging playstyle and the bug fixes. There not getting freddied
0 -
They’ve already said Freddy is on the list for some changes, however Freddy was pushed back and last time they mentioned it they didn’t even have an idea for what they are planning on doing for him. So it’s pretty safe to say that his changes won’t be coming anytime soon. Same with Myers who is in a similar situation.
0 -
I just wanted to say: No matter what they do, Freddy will always get delayed till eternity 🤣
0 -
Oh yes that's right I had forgotten they said Freddy was being pushed back.
I don't think Mikey is as in as much of a dire situation as Freddy is. Unlike Mikey, Freddy is considered boring to play as and against by the community. Mikey definitely needs some updating, and as a Mikey main myself I can't wait to see what they come up with, but he's still very popular according to their own stats. Mikey has a lot of fun builds you can do with him. He's generally enjoyed by the community.
Freddy is like the forgotten killer of Dbd. No cosmetics, no unique chase music, boring power, rarely played etc. That's the key thing with any killer. Weak or strong, if they're not fun to play then people won't play them. Its why Twins is getting a rework. They are considered strong but they're not really fun to play. So they're bottom of the killer pick rates. With Hag not far behind for similar reasons.
0 -
Oh I definitely agree about Myers. I think he needs some changes but Freddy should take priority over him (and pretty much every killer except Twins at this point). I only mentioned him because they said the same thing about Myers as they did Freddy “he’s on the list for changes but still figuring out what to do”.
Which doesn’t really bode well for Freddy if he has been pushed back so much and they still are only in the ideas phase of his changes :(
I really don’t get why he is so low priority honestly. I can understand Skull Merchant, but why was Trickster a higher priority?
1 -
My point. Even a Blight-Nerf is not as important as bringing Twins and Freddy back into the pick-rotation of Killer-players.
0 -
i do not think it is that they're not happy with what they have. it is that twin is designed pure slug killer and because none of other killer are pure slug killers, they're likely pondering how to make twin's viable and fun to play. the issue is that what makes twin viable is slugging but from what i have seen from dev point of view. they do not like slugging. as a result, it becomes difficult for them to make any changes to twins.
I don't think it is that there are no twins changes, more so that they are unsure on how to approach a pure slugging killer. that is why the changes are taking so long. Slugging is complex problem for BVHR.
1 -
1) The biggest problem is that if Victor knocks someone to the ground, BHVR forces killers to wait 8 seconds if they want to switch back to Charlotte, instead of slugging. So BHVR heavily punishes Twins if they don't slug.
2) And sometimes Victor knocks someone to the ground, and Charlotte is so very far away, that Twins will be heavily punished if they wait 8 seconds so Charlotte can move, then go through the whole process of walking all the way to that survivor, picking them up, carrying them to a hook, and hooking them.
There should be an acknowledged difference between "Twins are slugging just to be rude" and "Twins needs to slug or they're basically wasting a lot of time, which can throw the entire match". And Twins especially needs to slug if Victor knocks someone to the ground, and a teammate is somewhat nearby, because it can take so long for Charlotte to get there, that the teammate can heal the survivor off the ground faster than Charlotte can get there.
...It's almost like instead of an addon inflicting broken when Victor latches onto a survivor, it really should be inflicting broken when Victor knocks a survivor to the ground, so Charlotte can actually get to that survivor before they are healed off the ground.
0 -
well yeah, survivor can hold-w from charlotte. once they're past 40 meter radius. The chase could be 20 second long but because killer has to walk 25 seconds to get to the slugged survivor. your wasting 45 seconds+10 extra seconds just to put the survivor on the hook. If your chases are like 40 seconds long then every hook is like 70-80 seconds. that is incredible time inefficient for the killer.
they could change her design by giving her special ability where you can switch positions with twins and victor. that would solve problem however i almost feel like their design with twins is intentional such that they want killer to perform slugging gameplay with twin's. The problem is that pure slugging is impractical in dbd because survivor takes 4 minutes to die. an optimized team can constantly pick each other for 5+ times before anyone has any risk of dying and finish all gens. hook is such superior form of killing the survivor that almost no killer bothers to kill survivor that way. it is too high risk of strategy. you will either 4k or 0k's if you only slug. as a result, even twins has to hook because of how inefficient slugging is.
to solve that 25 second of walking per hook+10 second of hooking someone, the way to slug with twins is to reduce the number of hook-states to 3. that way, you only need pick survivor 2-3 times and put them on a hook. the way to do that is to scouting the weak-links on the team and tunneling weakest link on the team. once you get the game into 3vs1, you only have injure all 3 survivor then use victor's bloodhound find all survivors. in 3vs1, it is harder for survivor to pick each other because you can intercept the pick-up and if successful, you get 2 survivors on the floor. Survivors have 1 less person that can heal and you have 1 less person to keep track of. once you find 3rd survivor, you win by just chasing survivor last survivor and 1 hooking everyone. By 1 hooking everyone, you skip 25-35 seconds of manually hooking survivors. Twin's has inherent advantage that they can be in two places at once, so once you down 2 survivors, you can camp with victor on one survivor and use Charlotte to camp other survivor until remaining player shows up. it is super stressful to play because you are playing on thin ice. your early game is atrocious because you have terrible time efficiency with hooking and your late game is super stressful because you need chain your downs just right to close out the match before survivors finish last gen. This is a summary of Twin's gameplay.
to answer why nobody plays twins. you have to look at gameplay. slugging has no gradation. it is way too high risk vs reward. As a result, you need improvise the gameplay by tunneling and using hooks then slug at the correct time. I assume people dislike discrete tunneling off-hook gameplay that twins has to do in early game and they dislike the whole slug remaining 3 survivors to net wins. If the slugging gameplay was more stream-lined, then you would not need to tunnel. you would be able to play the game normally by chasing survivors normally. after one particular survivor get put into dying state 3-4 times then the survivor would be at risk of bleed out where you would get 1 kill from bleed out. Eventually you would naturally get a 3vs1 without hooking such that you could slug remaining 3 survivors to close out the match. This would result in much smoother twins gameplay experience now that your not focused to hard-tunnel to make your slugging strategy effective. Unfortunately, i do not think that they want this type of bleed out gameplay to be effective so they're hesitating to change anything regarding slugging for twins to play properly. you can guess that when slugging is stream-lined for twins, other killer might try to slug as well. Slugging is not suppose to be better than hooking. Hooking should always be more rewarding and fastest method to kill however the way slugging is now is that it is far too ineffective to slug to the point where you are forced to use hooking system to make slugging system effective. they need to make partially effective to slug. slugging should not be dominate strategy. slugging should be more of side-strategy that you can do to get bleed out but it should be worse then hooking itself from time-efficiency standpoint. you need to be good enough that twins can use it to win but not too strong that every killer just slugs everyone and ignores hooking. that tough balance task for bvhr. it is a big gameplay change.
0 -
I wonder how they are going to rework the twins
Because to me they are one of the strongest killers in the game
I can't see any nerf/buff to their basekit powers at the current state
0 -
I'm just super worried about the whole twins rework. BHVR said this rework is supposed to "make Twins more fun to play", but they also said they want to "address Twins slugging", and I'm not sure how both those statements are supposed to happen at the same time.
BHVR might nerf slugging, buff some other part of Twins, and tell us "Twins should be more fun to play", even if the rework clearly makes Twins less powerful than they currently are. Or the other fear is BHVR will fix Twins, but there will be so many survivor complaints, that BHVR will backlash with nerfs, and Twins will end up being less powerful than they currently are.
0 -
BHVR said this rework is supposed to "make Twins more fun to play", but they also said they want to "address Twins slugging", and I'm not sure how both those statements are supposed to happen at the same time.
yeah that does not make any sense. Like i said, they could just scrap the whole idea of pure slugging killer and just give twin's ability to switch victor's position with Charlotte position. With that, you can chase someone and when you down someone, you switch Victor with Charlotte like a teleport. After that you hook like a normal killer. with that type of change, twin's just becomes your average killer with chase power that hooks people.
BHVR might nerf slugging, buff some other part of Twins, and tell us "Twins should be more fun to play", even if the rework clearly makes Twins less powerful than they currently are. Or the other fear is BHVR will fix Twins, but there will be so many survivor complaints, that BHVR will backlash with nerfs, and Twins will end up being less powerful than they currently are.
That is a possibility to nerf slugging. I do not think they will do that. one of issues with survivor is gen-rushing. coordinate swf-teams can finish all 5 gens in 5-6 minutes. Slugging is one only ways for killer to comeback from 4 swf man 5-6 minute gen-rush with no perks or items. gen-rushing on survivor is really easy and very reliable. Slugging on other hand for killer is opposite. It is unreliable strategy with a lot of risk associated with it. So even if they nerf it by giving you base-kit unbreakable, you simply lose any chance to comeback vs high-tier teams as killer. your probability to slug 4 people are already not very high to begin with but now those teams become a 100% loss.
I don't think twins has power-level problem. I do not think killer needs any changes. Maybe you could improve some of add-on's but twins has some decent add-on. they have toy sword which rare charge time reduction add-on and they have two of those movement speed add-on that increase victor's m/s. they also have that weird iri silencing cloth add-on that gives you undetectable. that is at least 4 usable add-on's. functionally i do not see any issue with them. their problem is that the gameplay strategy(slugging) behind twins is not fun for killer to play.
======
If i were attempt to try to improve slugging for killer. these would be my 3 major idea's.
#1
-When a survivor is picked up from dying state to injured state, they gain 10 second of haste and 10 seconds of endurance. The corresponding perk "Soulguard" increases duration by 8 seconds for both effects.
Reason: This is prevent killer from hitting the survivor when your teammate pick you up in front of the killer.
#2
-When a slugged survivor is healed/pick up from dying state to the injured, you lose 10% of total max bleed out timer. If your bleed out timer is less 24 seconds. it is set to 1 second after being picked up. as long they are being healed, their bleed out timer will stay paused at 1 second. A survivor who is put into dying state at 1 second will automatically be mori'd by the killer.
Reason: The idea behind this is that when a killer downs multiple survivors, survivors performing healing action gradually lose their bleed out timer depending how many times they have been downed. On average, i would expect you to need to go down survivor around 3 or 4 times before you reach critical state where your bleed out timer is less then 60 seconds. Similar to hook-states, when you have less then 60 seconds, this will be intense moment for survivor where you might die to bleed out should you reach this point in the match for slugging. This is very similar to being on Death hook on survivor for slugging. This change also bring an insight to how I would incorporate mori's into the base game for killer. You can still use regular offering to mori survivors on 3rd hook-state.
#3
-Scourge hook is now a base-kit mechanic. When the match begins, 4 random hooks become scourge hook. When a killer performs a hook action on scourge hooks, the highest progress generator explodes and regresses for 15% of the total progression. This does not begin regression the generator. The corresponding perk "Scourge hook: Pain Resonance" regression value decreased from 25% -> 10%. The perk retains old functionality. it consumes 1 token to deal an additional 10% regression and begins regressing the generator.
Reason: One concern I have with attempting to make slugging more relevant for killer is that I do not killer to always slug. In order to keep killers to still continue hooking survivors. there need be some change that makes killer want to keep hooking survivors. one way to do that is to increase reward for hooking. a very popular perk that is often used by killer is pain res. When a killer sees a scourge hook, they will be more likely to perform a hooking action because it rewards them with generator regression.
that concludes end of my major ideas for how i would approach slugging. I would likely also perhaps add something like an mid-game collapse where if all remaining survivors are put into dying state, a 40 second timer begins. when timer reaches 0, all survivors in the dying state are mori'd by entity. if a survivor uses unbreakable, no mither, soulguard or boon:exponential, the timer disappears. This has little significance in terms of gameplay. the goal is to skip killer from having to find all survivors on the floor to hook them and to end match quicker.
=====
I have no clue what BVHR strategy with twins and slugging. One of the idea they have had in the past is to make survivor's recover slower but give them base-kit unbreakable. that idea likely works but unbreakable would have to be much slower then what was tested. they tested 45 seconds unbreakable. I would recommend 60-80 seconds. their idea does work however it makes survivor gameplay very slow because survivor will be on the floor for a very long time. I am not sure how fun it is for survivor to stay on the floor for that length gameplay period. I do not think that many players that play survivor enjoy being on the floor for that long. it is up to bvhr to figure how they want to conduct that gameplay. from the changes they have done, I think they want to avoid this gameplay. that is why twin has received no changes yet as they have not figured out how they want this gameplay to work.
0 -
My problem is I don't understand if "address slugging" refers to buffing Twins so they aren't forced to slug as often, or if "address slugging" means nerfing Twins so survivors can't be slugged as often.
0 -
i imagine that if they're approach is to not make twins slug, they would add some ability like switch teleport idea that makes it so that they do not need to slug because they can teleport to the slugged survivor and hook them. that would be a technical buff because you spend less time walking to the survivor on the floor to hook them. alternatively, they can keep twin's current game design and then work how to make slugging work so that twins does not play in what survivors would describe as an tedious gameplay loop(tunneling, camping and slugging). most killer player do not really slug unless the survivor gives them a crazy opportunity to do so. Like they are not looking to slug. It is unwanted killer interaction. that is why killer complain when something like Boil Over is strong because it forces slugging, an unwanted interaction from killer end. most killer players generally rely on strategic proxy camping and strategic tunneling more so then anything else. as a result, survivor meta revolves around chases perk to "counter" said tunneling.
0 -
Skull merchant was (and still is) a detriment to the game's health so they prioritized her rework and delayed Twins if i had to guess. Unfortunately being buggy, clunky and unpopular really helps delay a rework. I hope it's something amazing or substantial and not just a few number tweaks, as funny as that would be. Because i kinda like the twins
0 -
Darn
0 -
I have a great idea for twins or maybe even a new killer type and way to shake up the game. MULTIPLE PLAYER KILLER(S), make it so that you can join your friend in a twins killer lobby and have control of victor while your friend continues on with killer duties as Violet. Vic would definitely need a nerf. probably just need to make his abilities more assist based.
They could also use this for a new killer(s). It would open lanes for more diverse killer options. Would be hard to balance but I think as long as you keep one person as M1 attacker and the other as a passive threat only doing assists.
this could also open lanes for zombie type and groups of people to be new IPs and variety in gameplay.
0
